Brexit...

[MikeO]

Avaaz, who I strongly agree with on many things...

Brexit is the dream of the Trumps and Farages of this world. And like them, the Leave campaign has risen in the polls mainly through fantastic lies delivered by rag media.

The truth is, Europe is a no-brainer. The challenges we face are, by far, best met together. Our unity is a force for peace, for human and labour rights, for environmental sustainability, for our future. And that's why those who want to take us backward on all those fronts, also want Brexit.

We have 9 days left, and we're going to fight, every hour of it, for Britain, and for Europe.

[Cornish Steve]

Brexiters are a funny bunch, I have to say. I guess many of you have to make up (poor) excuses so that you don't have to admit it's just about xenophobia as that would associate you with the UKIP? I mean it's not news that Brits are xenophobic even without voting for UKIP so why bother with the other excuses? As an outsider I have tried to find a single fact that supports Britain leaving EU but it's all either emotional or basically complete hogwash (plus not a small amount of lies).

 

I think you lot have the right to make your own mistakes so I'm not interested in changing someone's mind (and I can see that most have already made up their mind anyways). If you vote to leave then you leave. But please don't fool yourself into thinking you somehow get more leverage over the rest of Europe that way. Which is more important, rest of EU to British trade or Britain to the trade of the rest of the EU? There's very little leverage for Brits, you WILL have to make more concession than you do now. In fact the concessions EU have given to Britain to keep you in annoy a lot of high-ranking people in France and Germany already, there is absolutely no way the trade agreements with a Britain outside of EU would be better for you lot. Plus if you wanted to export something to the remaining EU your products and services would have to comply with laws you had 0% input in.

 

The thing about WWIII is OTT but the basic idea is that EU is weaker without Britain. Russia will have even less opposition to their expansion so the risk they step over some boundary grows greater. Putin specifically would love for EU to break down as after that there would be no real opposition in Europe with USA turning its attention to Far East. Remember, Russia took a large patch of land in Europe and is keeping a war in Central Europe going already. What would an EU-less Europe do if it started pressing other neighbours?

 

If you're trying to understand the biggest single reason why so many Britons want to leave the EU, you just gave a prime example.

[Cornish Steve]

The thing about WWIII is OTT but the basic idea is that EU is weaker without Britain. Russia will have even less opposition to their expansion so the risk they step over some boundary grows greater. Putin specifically would love for EU to break down as after that there would be no real opposition in Europe with USA turning its attention to Far East. Remember, Russia took a large patch of land in Europe and is keeping a war in Central Europe going already. What would an EU-less Europe do if it started pressing other neighbours?

 

The EU was initially marketed as an economic bloc. NATO is there for defence. Once again, the EU is far too big for its boots and should not be telling member states what it can and cannot do.

[Makis]

 

If you're trying to understand the biggest single reason why so many Britons want to leave the EU, you just gave a prime example.

Which is what?

[Makis]

 

The EU was initially marketed as an economic bloc. NATO is there for defence. Once again, the EU is far too big for its boots and should not be telling member states what it can and cannot do.

So what should it do then? Hold meetings and do absolutely nothing? Edited June 15, 2016 by Makis

[holystove]

 

The EU was initially marketed as an economic bloc. NATO is there for defence. Once again, the EU is far too big for its boots and should not be telling member states what it can and cannot do.

 

Initially the European Coal and Steel Community, °1951, was created to have economic alliances between the countries of Europe so there would never be war amongst them again.

 

The EU, °1992, was never only intended to be an economic bloc because it was established after the complete integration of the internal market. One of the fundamental principles of the EU is the evolution towards an ever closer union in every aspect (political, cultural, ...).

 

So in essence, yes the EU should tell member states what to do.

-

If you view the EU as a group of member states who each want to get the best possible deal for themselves, then by all means you should vote leave, both for yourself and for the betterment of the Union.

 

The way I see the EU:

- brings peace throughout Europe

- allows me to have a voice in a globalized world (EU is at the forfront of the fight against global warming, EU fights for human rights, ...)

- is the best opportunity for less wealthy European nations to get a better standard of living

- it protects me from unlawful actions from my own government

[johnh]

er, NATO has kept world peace, including Europe.

[MikeO]

 

Initially the European Coal and Steel Community, °1951, was created to have economic alliances between the countries of Europe so there would never be war amongst them again.

 

The EU, °1992, was never only intended to be an economic bloc because it was established after the complete integration of the internal market. One of the fundamental principles of the EU is the evolution towards an ever closer union in every aspect (political, cultural, ...).

 

So in essence, yes the EU should tell member states what to do.

-

If you view the EU as a group of member states who each want to get the best possible deal for themselves, then by all means you should vote leave, both for yourself and for the betterment of the Union.

 

The way I see the EU:

- brings peace throughout Europe

- allows me to have a voice in a globalized world (EU is at the forfront of the fight against global warming, EU fights for human rights, ...)

- is the best opportunity for less wealthy European nations to get a better standard of living

- it protects me from unlawful actions from my own government

 

The bold bit is (sadly) the thing that puts most out voters off. As long as we're OK screw everyone else, they really don't care about the rest of Europe/the World. In fact as long as they're OK they don't care about anyone outside of their front door; £2 a month direct debit to Oxfam salves the conscience but the basic human instinct for many is greed.

[MikeO]

[Matt]

Shit. Osbourne wants us to stay, now I'm torn

[johnh]

 

The bold bit is (sadly) the thing that puts most out voters off. As long as we're OK screw everyone else, they really don't care about the rest of Europe/the World. In fact as long as they're OK they don't care about anyone outside of their front door; £2 a month direct debit to Oxfam salves the conscience but the basic human instinct for many is greed.

The best opportunity for less wealthy nations to get a better standard of living. Like Greece you mean?

[MikeO]

The best opportunity for less wealthy nations to get a better standard of living. Like Greece you mean?

 

It's not a quick fix; it may take generations but it remains the aim. Greece's problems are down to their own greed, people need to be educated.

 

(I realise this is a Utopian ideal because people will always be greedy and not really give a toss about anyone outside their immediate circle but I live in hope)

[Matt]

 

It's not a quick fix; it may take generations but it remains the aim. Greece's problems are down to their own greed, people need to be educated.

 

(I realise this is a Utopian ideal because people will always be greedy and not really give a toss about anyone outside their immediate circle but I live in hope)

I'm still convinced that the pressure of hosting the Olympics all that time ago has been a massive factor. The money they threw at that one-off event on stadia and infrastructure that's never really be used since was unreal, as was the spending to get it done on time.

[Hafnia]

Problem with Greece is that tourism has gone 'all inclusive' - the money isnt getting to all those fantastic restaurants and tavernas etc.

[Matt]

Problem with Greece is that tourism has gone 'all inclusive' - the money isnt getting to all those fantastic restaurants and tavernas etc.

Loved the islands, even if I didn't like the heat. Spent a week in Aegina, had a fantastic time for the most part. I remember waiting for a restaurant to open for lunch, sitting in the harbour, when 2 fishermen turned up with their catch and walked over to the waiter. You could see them staking the ice boxes with the catch and, once done, they opened the restaurant. One of the fishermen was our waiter, and we had the most amazing fish I've ever had. Just as well, since they charged us 60Euro for it!

[johnh]

 

It's not a quick fix; it may take generations but it remains the aim. Greece's problems are down to their own greed, people need to be educated.

 

(I realise this is a Utopian ideal because people will always be greedy and not really give a toss about anyone outside their immediate circle but I live in hope)

Fair point about Greece's problems being 'home-grown', particularly the fact that hardly anyone pays tax. However, a significant chunk of their problems are due to the euro. How they thought they could operate with a currency designed for the Germans is mind boggling. On the other hand, they may not have had a choice the EU being as undemocratic as it is.

[MikeO]

Problem with Greece is that tourism has gone 'all inclusive' - the money isnt getting to all those fantastic restaurants and tavernas etc.

 

Don't get me started on AI; one of the big hotels in the resort nearest where we stay (go there to eat at times, the resort, not the hotel) has gone AI this year. Locals are really worried although given the reviews the place is getting on TripAdvisor are enough to put anyone off; it's being roasted.

[johnh]

 

I really don't see how we can have an, "I'll join your club as long as I don't have to stick to your rules and can have special treatment" attitude (which we already do, but we'll hold our breath until we get more).

 

If I was the EU I'd tell us to fuck off.

 

Edit: Someone's changed their mind because the vote was 18-11 and now it's 17-12 .

 

Sorry,only just spotted this post. Article in the Telegraph today addresses the 'club rules' issue.

 

'...........the argument that we are in the club and should just obey the rules is fatuous, because the rules and the membership have changed so much since we joined.'

 

The problem is that the rules will continue to change and at an ever increasing rate and there is little or no chance that we can stop it. This is the main reason why there is a bigger risk in voting to stay in.

[Matt]

 

Sorry,only just spotted this post. Article in the Telegraph today addresses the 'club rules' issue.

 

'...........the argument that we are in the club and should just obey the rules is fatuous, because the rules and the membership have changed so much since we joined.'

 

The problem is that the rules will continue to change and at an ever increasing rate and there is little or no chance that we can stop it. This is the main reason why there is a bigger risk in voting to stay in.

Staying in, we have a chance of changing things (whether its big or small, who knows what will happen). If we leave, the EU Superpower will develop without our influence and that's the much bigger risk long-term for me.

[Cornish Steve]

Which is what?

 

The EU arrogantly telling Britain how it's going to be, how they can boss us around, how we can and cannot trade, and how we're oh-so-dependent on them. Such an attitude, frankly, makes people livid - and rightly so.

[Cornish Steve]

 

It's not a quick fix; it may take generations but it remains the aim. Greece's problems are down to their own greed, people need to be educated.

 

(I realise this is a Utopian ideal because people will always be greedy and not really give a toss about anyone outside their immediate circle but I live in hope)

 

Yes, it is down to greed, but who picks up the tab? I'm all for helping less wealthy nations, and outsourcing is the best form of foreign aid the world has ever seen, but that doesn't extend to bailing out countries who spend lavishly on their own welfare and then demand that the EU bail them out. We're a responsible nation, and the least we can do is demand responsibility from our partners.

[Matt]

 

The EU arrogantly telling Britain how it's going to be, how they can boss us around, how we can and cannot trade, and how we're oh-so-dependent on them. Such an attitude, frankly, makes people livid - and rightly so.

Honestly, thats just politics in general, and not soley the case of the EU

[MikeO]

 

Yes, it is down to greed, but who picks up the tab? I'm all for helping less wealthy nations, and outsourcing is the best form of foreign aid the world has ever seen, but that doesn't extend to bailing out countries who spend lavishly on their own welfare and then demand that the EU bail them out. We're a responsible nation, and the least we can do is demand responsibility from our partners.

 

I agree, that's why I said it may take generations and a lot of education. If one of my kids went bankrupt I'd help them get back on their feet and then sit them down and work out why it happened and try to put them on the right course so it didn't happen again. I wouldn't disown them.

[Cornish Steve]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/14/why-ill-be-voting-to-leave-the-eu-next-week/

[MikeO]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1297264/Bob-Geldof-young-people-vote-EU-referendum.html

[Hafnia]

Im definately voting out.

[StevO]

I'm getting bored of the amount of post I'm getting from people telling me to stay. Nearly every day now!

 

One thing I don't get, as the scaremongering reaches fever pitch, the last few days Cameron and Osbourne have looked like they are telling us we have just been attacked by aliens such is the panic in their delivery, if all of this is so bad and scary and the U.K. Will fall apart, why on earth would Cameron even give us the choice? He doesn't have to. Ok he put it in his manifesto to get some extra votes, but you're in now. You aren't running again. Why not just come out and say I've done some research at the expense of £20m+ (like they have spent on the marketing for the remain vote) of tax money and it's too much of a risk.

 

Matt, I know you're in Switzerland and they aren't in the EU, is there anyone over there pushing to get into the EU? Do the Swiss people feel quite happy to not need it? I'm just curious to see how things are from a country in Europe but not the EU and how it's viewed. From my single visit there it seemed like there is a great standard of living and a very healthy economy. Couple of nice watches too.

[Romey 1878]

Im definately voting out.

I already have.

[Matt]

I'm getting bored of the amount of post I'm getting from people telling me to stay. Nearly every day now!

 

One thing I don't get, as the scaremongering reaches fever pitch, the last few days Cameron and Osbourne have looked like they are telling us we have just been attacked by aliens such is the panic in their delivery, if all of this is so bad and scary and the U.K. Will fall apart, why on earth would Cameron even give us the choice? He doesn't have to. Ok he put it in his manifesto to get some extra votes, but you're in now. You aren't running again. Why not just come out and say I've done some research at the expense of £20m+ (like they have spent on the marketing for the remain vote) of tax money and it's too much of a risk.

 

Matt, I know you're in Switzerland and they aren't in the EU, is there anyone over there pushing to get into the EU? Do the Swiss people feel quite happy to not need it? I'm just curious to see how things are from a country in Europe but not the EU and how it's viewed. From my single visit there it seemed like there is a great standard of living and a very healthy economy. Couple of nice watches too.

I'll let this answer:

 

http://infacts.org/dont-envy-switzerland/

 

edit: another non-EU country review

 

http://infacts.org/briefings/norwegian-model/

 

The better idea in my opinion

 

http://infacts.org/brown-european-leaders-back-lead-not-leave-manifesto/

Edited June 15, 2016 by Matt

[MikeO]

Matt, I know you're in Switzerland and they aren't in the EU, is there anyone over there pushing to get into the EU? Do the Swiss people feel quite happy to not need it? I'm just curious to see how things are from a country in Europe but not the EU and how it's viewed. From my single visit there it seemed like there is a great standard of living and a very healthy economy. Couple of nice watches too.

 

Switzerland has been isolationist for a long time, neutral in both wars, so I doubt there's any inclination to join. I have a nice Swiss watch, was my Dad's .