Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[StevO]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

You shouldn’t not do your job, and do it well, just because the officials continue to fail at doing their job. If you accommodate poor work, you encourage it

I know Matt, so what do you do? Keep making the challenge, win the ball but still give away the penalty? That’s what’s happening, the refs aren’t changing so got to cover yourself. 

[StevO]

28 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Furthermore... Mike Dean on the Beeb

 

4 types of challenge. The two that involve this incident are a "correct tackle" wins the ball fairly and no impact on the opponent. 

The other type is listed as careless where "the player makes a legitimate attempt to win the ball attempt but either in their timing or the skill of the opponent, they foul the other player".

Food for thought but to me that means almost all tackles could be considered as fouls. 

Translates to “if they fancy giving it they will give it”

[Matt]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I know Matt, so what do you do? Keep making the challenge, win the ball but still give away the penalty? That’s what’s happening, the refs aren’t changing so got to cover yourself. 

I keep doing my job to the best of my ability and complain strongly when I’m unfairly punished. If that doesn’t work, I escalate the issue up the chain 

[StevO]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

I keep doing my job to the best of my ability and complain strongly when I’m unfairly punished. If that doesn’t work, I escalate the issue up the chain 

So in this scenario the club could complain to the FA or the PMGOL but nothing will happen, this isn’t a new thing, it’s gone on for ages. Even when they tried to clamp down on diving only one club ever got punished, again unfairly, and that was us too. 

[Matt]

25 minutes ago, StevO said:

So in this scenario the club could complain to the FA or the PMGOL but nothing will happen, this isn’t a new thing, it’s gone on for ages. Even when they tried to clamp down on diving only one club ever got punished, again unfairly, and that was us too. 

It shouldn’t be one club complaining though, there should be a general approach because all clubs get screwed by these bad decisions and the clubs should pressure the authorities until there’s an improvement. 

[Shukes]

18 hours ago, Bailey said:

Furthermore... Mike Dean on the Beeb

 

4 types of challenge. The two that involve this incident are a "correct tackle" wins the ball fairly and no impact on the opponent. 

The other type is listed as careless where "the player makes a legitimate attempt to win the ball attempt but either in their timing or the skill of the opponent, they foul the other player".

Food for thought but to me that means almost all tackles could be considered as fouls. 

This is the reason I have issue with the Gana criticism. 

He didn’t even make a tackle, he nicked the ball away, then Martial dived. It wasn’t reckless in any way. 

Good debate about the coaching. Going to the byline is a dangerous option. Your praying you can usher them out, but if not,, the ball is pulled back away from the keeper past defenders who are on the back foot and easy for players running onto the ball. 

In fact, attackers are taught just that. Try to get to the byline, pull the ball back.... easy tap in or hard to defend. 

Wevare talking another level here though, more intricacies of the game then general coaching.

[Shukes]

13 hours ago, Matt said:

It shouldn’t be one club complaining though, there should be a general approach because all clubs get screwed by these bad decisions and the clubs should pressure the authorities until there’s an improvement. 

Or roll over and have your belly tickled to make everything ok.... the equivalent of not tackling just in case the officials male a mistake.

Got to keep playing to the game, not the officials.

[Hafnia]

Get VAR in.  It takes away the excuse that the ref didn't get a clear view. The VAR ref is then at least accountable by not having that excuse.  

Remove the excuses for bad decisions and replace with accountability and punishment for deception. 

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, hafnia said:

Get VAR in.  It takes away the excuse that the ref didn't get a clear view. The VAR ref is then at least accountable by not having that excuse.  

Remove the excuses for bad decisions and replace with accountability and punishment for deception. 

Good point! 

4 hours ago, Shukes said:

This is the reason I have issue with the Gana criticism. 

He didn’t even make a tackle, he nicked the ball away, then Martial dived. It wasn’t reckless in any way. 

Good debate about the coaching. Going to the byline is a dangerous option. Your praying you can usher them out, but if not,, the ball is pulled back away from the keeper past defenders who are on the back foot and easy for players running onto the ball. 

In fact, attackers are taught just that. Try to get to the byline, pull the ball back.... easy tap in or hard to defend. 

Wevare talking another level here though, more intricacies of the game then general coaching.

He does touch the ball but he does also make contact with Martial which when compared to every game across the league was more than enough for a ref to give a foul. Its then the interpretation as to whether Gana was careless in making that contact regardless of whether he wins the ball. I think good arguments can be made both ways.

Inside the penalty area you should only take the risk of winning the ball if you can do so cleanly. Making contact with the other player and not having clear control of the ball is not clear. I get your point about the byline but the defender just has to make sure they are close enough to make the block. Make the attacker make the pass, dont give them the option of getting the penalty. Certainly dont let them into the box before engaging. Gana is really good at shadowing players, I would be almost certain that he would have blocked the cross and even if he didnt he has teammates behind him who if doing their job can also stop the ball going into the back of the net. The goal may still be scored but there is a lot more to do to score that way rather than give the penalty away. 

Anyway its all opinions

[Shukes]

Sorry mate I do t agree with your opening sentence at all. 

Gana makes contact, but it’s fairie contact at best. If that’s enough to topple a player, then said player shouldn’t be playing sports. Saying that,..... Martial proves my point. He takes another step then HAS to throw himself into a dive because the contact was nowehere near enough to take him down. 

In football that I play and watch... 7/10 stay on their feet.... because they are too embarrassed to go down. 

Again, Gana DID win the ball cleanly... Martial cheated, the official got it wrong. 

Question. Did Gana slide in recklessly? Did he slide in at all, in any way? Did he just randomly throw a leg out?

I have played football at Sunday league level when I was 16 years old. I then stepped up to county league and followed into the midlands premier at semi pro. Never ever, ever let a forward get to the byline and play the ball back. If you see an opportunity to take the ball away from goal.... take it. 

Now addmitedly this is not at a professional level in any way. But surely the higher you get, the better you become? You should never be afraid of making a tackle just incase. 

Setting up not to fail has always and always will be,  preparing to fail. Footballers should always be confident in their own ability. Mistakes happen through carears, but not in this case with the player.

I agree that he should never have been allowed to get into that position in the first place, but where were the defenders at this point? 

Opinions are just that agreed. But playing against a simulated skilled opponent, I would fancy myself 65/35 against any defender when dealing with a ball cut back. Defender is running towards the ball and has to, stop, change direction and then get to the ball. I only have to keep going the way I’m already running.

Haha Bailey, maybe me and you together would make a great coaching team for young kids  

[Bailey]

On 01/11/2018 at 15:01, Shukes said:

Sorry mate I do t agree with your opening sentence at all. 

Gana makes contact, but it’s fairie contact at best. If that’s enough to topple a player, then said player shouldn’t be playing sports. Saying that,..... Martial proves my point. He takes another step then HAS to throw himself into a dive because the contact was nowehere near enough to take him down. 

In football that I play and watch... 7/10 stay on their feet.... because they are too embarrassed to go down. 

Again, Gana DID win the ball cleanly... Martial cheated, the official got it wrong. 

Question. Did Gana slide in recklessly? Did he slide in at all, in any way? Did he just randomly throw a leg out?

I have played football at Sunday league level when I was 16 years old. I then stepped up to county league and followed into the midlands premier at semi pro. Never ever, ever let a forward get to the byline and play the ball back. If you see an opportunity to take the ball away from goal.... take it. 

Now addmitedly this is not at a professional level in any way. But surely the higher you get, the better you become? You should never be afraid of making a tackle just incase. 

Setting up not to fail has always and always will be,  preparing to fail. Footballers should always be confident in their own ability. Mistakes happen through carears, but not in this case with the player.

I agree that he should never have been allowed to get into that position in the first place, but where were the defenders at this point? 

Opinions are just that agreed. But playing against a simulated skilled opponent, I would fancy myself 65/35 against any defender when dealing with a ball cut back. Defender is running towards the ball and has to, stop, change direction and then get to the ball. I only have to keep going the way I’m already running.

Haha Bailey, maybe me and you together would make a great coaching team for young kids  

Your point is proven from a physical perspective but we all know that doesnt matter in todays game. Whether they could or couldnt have stayed on their feet is irrelevant now.

I would argue that if he makes contact with the player it isnt clean. Which is supported by the rules of the game and their interpretation of a senior referree.

I agree about being confident but at the same time players need to minimise risk. Gana effectively went for glory instead of being patient. Much like when a striker takes a first time shot when they have time and space instead of taking a touch and steadying themselves. 

The defenders were out of position because Theo lost the ball when Seamus was ahead of him. Gana was doing his job in covering the full back spot.

Interestingly I would fancy my chances 90+% against a player trying to go down the line because the touch line is like a second defender. Maybe that is what influences our thinking

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Building up a great partnership with Gomes, another great all action display from him today 

[Btay]

Was excellent on the ball today. 

Allows all players ahead of him to play with creative freedom as he almost always wins the ball back instantly.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

[Hafnia]

Brilliant performance yet again.  He must be getting close to Scott gemmill or mark pembridge levels now?  

[Palfy]

20 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Brilliant performance yet again.  He must be getting close to Scott gemmill or mark pembridge levels now?  

No he isn’t Haf I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, l new he would look good against Brighton and he I said he would have to prove he’s the real deal against Utd and he didn’t you could visibly see he was out played by better players, and I feel the same will happen against Chelsea he will be out classed and look average, for this club to move forward we need players who can complete against the bigger clubs. 

Now that’s not having a pop at him for the sake of it to me that’s just the reality of the situation he’s not in their league, now Gomes is he matched the Utd players and had a good game I believe he will match the Chelsea players and have a good game, Gana won’t but next week will prove me right or wrong let’s wait and see. 

[Wiggytop]

10 minutes ago, Palfy said:

No he isn’t Haf I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, l new he would look good against Brighton and he I said he would have to prove he’s the real deal against Utd and he didn’t you could visibly see he was out played by better players, and I feel the same will happen against Chelsea he will be out classed and look average, for this club to move forward we need players who can complete against the bigger clubs. 

Now that’s not having a pop at him for the sake of it to me that’s just the reality of the situation he’s not in their league, now Gomes is he matched the Utd players and had a good game I believe he will match the Chelsea players and have a good game, Gana won’t but next week will prove me right or wrong let’s wait and see. 

FFS Palfy, stop being so pessimistic please, were improving as a team throughout, every player makes a mistake in every game, as we improve and become more confident the mistakes will become less glaring.

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, Wiggytop said:

FFS Palfy, stop being so pessimistic please, were improving as a team throughout, every player makes a mistake in every game, as we improve and become more confident the mistakes will become less glaring.

I’m not really talking about individual mistakes more whether a player is good enough to take you to the next level, I except Gana had a good game against Brighton and hats off to him for that really pleased for him. 

I expect all our players to have good games against the lesser teams, then you look at the games against the bigger teams and that gives you a better idea if that player can compete with the step up in class, from what I’ve witnessed Gana doesn’t seem to be able to take what we see against Brighton say against Utd say. 

It will be interesting see if he takes what he achieved against Brighton into the Chelsea, I fear he won’t not for the want of trying but more because the Chelsea players are above his ability, which isn’t a slur or a pop at him it’s just the way it is. 

[Paddock]

36 minutes ago, Palfy said:

No he isn’t Haf I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, l new he would look good against Brighton and he I said he would have to prove he’s the real deal against Utd and he didn’t you could visibly see he was out played by better players, and I feel the same will happen against Chelsea he will be out classed and look average, for this club to move forward we need players who can complete against the bigger clubs. 

Now that’s not having a pop at him for the sake of it to me that’s just the reality of the situation he’s not in their league, now Gomes is he matched the Utd players and had a good game I believe he will match the Chelsea players and have a good game, Gana won’t but next week will prove me right or wrong let’s wait and see. 

Hardly any of our players stand up to Uniteds- they have a much stronger squad because they’ve spent absolutely shit loads more money than us so why pick on Gana?

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, Paddock said:

Hardly any of our players stand up to Uniteds- they have a much stronger squad because they’ve spent absolutely shit loads more money than us so why pick on Gana?

How is that picking on Gana, It’s my opinion that if a player can’t take same performance against the bigger teams as he does against the lesser teams he isn’t going to get you to the next level, that was a response to Hafs post where he is putting him in the league of ex Everton midfielders who showed up against everyone for me he doesn’t hence my reply. 

[Paddock]

2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

How is that picking on Gana, It’s my opinion that if a player can’t take same performance against the bigger teams as he does against the lesser teams he isn’t going to get you to the next level, that was a response to Hafs post where he is putting him in the league of ex Everton midfielders who showed up against everyone for me he doesn’t hence my reply. 

So which of our players hold up to Uniteds squad then- who would, out of our side walk straight into theirs? 

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, Paddock said:

So which of our players hold up to Uniteds squad then- who would, out of our side walk straight into theirs? 

Against Utd the players I felt acquitted themselves well and didn’t look out classed were Pickford, Digne, Keane, Gomes, Gylfi and Richarlison, now I’m not saying they would get in Utd team or any other team for that matter, but they didn’t look beneath them even if they did cost less. 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

No he isn’t Haf I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, l new he would look good against Brighton and he I said he would have to prove he’s the real deal against Utd and he didn’t you could visibly see he was out played by better players, and I feel the same will happen against Chelsea he will be out classed and look average, for this club to move forward we need players who can complete against the bigger clubs. 

Now that’s not having a pop at him for the sake of it to me that’s just the reality of the situation he’s not in their league, now Gomes is he matched the Utd players and had a good game I believe he will match the Chelsea players and have a good game, Gana won’t but next week will prove me right or wrong let’s wait and see. 

Talking bollocks Palf. He was our best player against the best side we've faced this year - Arsenal. Explain that if its all dependant on quality of opposition.

Against united, Gomes arguably should have closed down pogba and challenged him before his pass to martial.  That's the type of negative lens you would put on gana if it was his man but that doesn't work for you.   The same way that his clean tackle on martial which resulted In s joke of a decision was down to him not using the right type of tackle to win the ball??? 

 

[Palfy]

6 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Talking bollocks Palf. He was our best player against the best side we've faced this year - Arsenal. Explain that if its all dependant on quality of opposition.

Against united, Gomes arguably should have closed down pogba and challenged him before his pass to martial.  That's the type of negative lens you would put on gana if it was his man but that doesn't work for you.   The same way that his clean tackle on martial which resulted In s joke of a decision was down to him not using the right type of tackle to win the ball??? 

 

Let’s see what happens next week and he never got Motm against Arsenal not on here. 

[Hafnia]

7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Let’s see what happens next week and he never got Motm against Arsenal not on here. 

Oh sorry you mean richarlison got 10 votes vs Ganas 9...... as the 2 best rated players.  But you said he doesn't play well against good opponents..... he clearly can and did.   

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-arsenal-performance-showed-idrissa-15202809.amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.hitc.com/en-gb/2018/09/28/don-hutchison-raves-about-everton-midfielder-idrissa-gueye/

Good job we don't all have the same mentality as you and PeteO.  A fair few of us would be desperately clamouring to justify why Michael Keane is shit.... just because we said so last year. Rather than being happy he's proven us wrong. 

 

[Romey 1878]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

I noticed Gomes had 10 recoveries himself. So not much was getting through that yesterday!

[Palfy]

8 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Oh sorry you mean richarlison got 10 votes vs Ganas 9...... as the 2 best rated players.  But you said he doesn't play well against good opponents..... he clearly can and did.   

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-arsenal-performance-showed-idrissa-15202809.amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.hitc.com/en-gb/2018/09/28/don-hutchison-raves-about-everton-midfielder-idrissa-gueye/

Good job we don't all have the same mentality as you and PeteO.  A fair few of us would be desperately clamouring to justify why Michael Keane is shit.... just because we said so last year. Rather than being happy he's proven us wrong. 

 

As I said before Haf I never called him shit because I know my shit, I’ve never called Gana shit but I don’t think he’s good enough to take us to the next level.

But your always right even though you do move the goalposts to suit you own agenda, so I’m not going to get drag into this argument again just to give you a platform or soapbox to spout off the same stuff that everyone’s heard a hundred times before, as others have said it’s becoming boring, no malice intended but not interested. 

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

I noticed Gomes had 10 recoveries himself. So not much was getting through that yesterday!

Romey ffs I’ve said he played well yesterday he always does against the lesser clubs, great against Palace poor against Utd great against Brighton. 

[Romey 1878]

1 minute ago, Palfy said:

Romey ffs I’ve said he played well yesterday he always does against the lesser clubs, great against Palace poor against Utd great against Brighton. 

 What the fuck? I'm not even involved in your discussion with Haf. I'm just saying that with Gomes also having high stats in terms of recovering the ball we weren't going to give many chances away to Brighton. 

[Palfy]

3 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

 What the fuck? I'm not even involved in your discussion with Haf. I'm just saying that with Gomes also having high stats in terms of recovering the ball we weren't going to give many chances away to Brighton. 

Sorry mate just didn’t want to get tied down on another full blown argument about Gana whilst I’m on holiday, when I’m back home go for it nothing more I enjoy  

By the way when are you going to return the topic to its original title