Romey 1878 Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 11 hours ago, Bailey said: But maybe that is because you have been brought up well. Minors are massively influenced by their environment and I would bet a lot of money that had she been brought up differently that she would have come to a very different decision. And if my aunty had a dick she'd be my uncle. All good and well saying that but the reality is that this is who she is, and that is the way she was brought up. Invite these people into your community and have them live next door to you, knowing they hate you and would prefer it if you were dead. KinL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 Top rant from a mate on facebook "I left the Labour Party and indeed the UK a few years ago because I knew the schism between centrist and left would never come together again. When I realised that centrists were far more engaged with attacking the left than they were with going at the Conservatives, I knew the UK was truly fucked. I didn’t want to be around for the collapse. As the point of no return passed by, when fellow centrists were willing to let Labour lose rather than get us in power and then worry about the leadership, there was clearly no fixing it. Then Brexit came along… Brexit is the fulcrum cause. A more cynical person than me might even say part of its purpose was to smash the left. However Brexit is just symptomatic of a larger malaise of people being incapable of seeing anything other than their own shrieking agenda. There is no more consensus or greater good, only what I want NOW NOW NOW. If this centrist spilt happens in full, and a new party is formed, the left will not migrate to it. They will entrench. The split will mean a Tory boot on the face of UK for the rest of our lives. I don't even feel that is hyperbole. The true insanity is that there is a perfectly good 'third way' party in the Lib Dems they could go to if they weren't happy with Labour. But this isn'tt what they want. They don't want the UK to be a better place they want to smash Labour because it's not doing what they want. I’d done with Corbyn a while ago. I get what his play is over Brexit but it is wrong. Centrists will say this is all his fault but we all know this split has been in place for some years now. It's not the fault of any sides despite millions of pointing fingers. Everyone is now chasing their own agenda, it's everyone's fault. Brexit is just a brass idol that blame culture bows before. Everyone spends hours pointing fingers and apportioning blame but not one minute doing anything themselves other than, at best, paint a twee banner for an utterly ineffectual ‘protest’ once every 3 or 4 years. I talk all the time about being a communist when I am having a laugh online but I’m pretty centrist. Always was ( I used to volunteer for Chuka in the Streatham ward). But I supported Corbyn wholeheartedly pre-Brexit because I wanted Labour to be in power. I saw the right wing propaganda machine wear everyone down, on all sides, until people I very much respect and appear to possess a brain started piling in on him, in what seemed to me to be an act of peer-pressure rather than political know-how. Long before Brexit came along they’d given up on Labour. You don’t get to choose your team, you support it regardless. You do what is best for it. If you don’t like the manager you get rid when the time is right. But you don’t kneecap the players, burn the bus and demolish the stadium when things aren’t going well. But there is no getting away from it now. Brexit is a Cold Civil War. It’s hammering the UK into pieces and every time something like this separatist move happens, essentially opportunists making the most of the disaster for personal gain, more pieces are lost under the furniture and won’t ever be found again to glue back on. My centrist friends are crowing and whooping today. But I fear what I always said would come to pass has finally happened irreversibly, the end of Labour. And it wasn’t the swivel-eyed nutjobs of Momentum that did for it, it was the ‘nice’ middle class, slightly pompous ‘those who know betters’ who killed it, and it will let the very worst people in the world continue to have their way. Of all the recent bullshit in the UK and LORDY has there ever been a lot to choose from! this is the one thing that will reverberate down history. The day we gave it all to the Tories on a silver platter. And it will be the weakest and most vulnerable who will bear this brunt of this insanity. As always." Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said: And if my aunty had a dick she'd be my uncle. All good and well saying that but the reality is that this is who she is, and that is the way she was brought up. Invite these people into your community and have them live next door to you, knowing they hate you and would prefer it if you were dead. Just digressing. But, if your aunty had a dick she'd by your uncle. Not necessarily, these days she'd just have to register whichever sex she fancied and that would be it. StevO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 Yeah, or they could be intersex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said: And if my aunty had a dick she'd be my uncle. All good and well saying that but the reality is that this is who she is, and that is the way she was brought up. Invite these people into your community and have them live next door to you, knowing they hate you and would prefer it if you were dead. Does this make it any easier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Chach said: Does this make it any easier? Yes, she can still stay where she is. KinL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 13 hours ago, Romey 1878 said: And if my aunty had a dick she'd be my uncle. All good and well saying that but the reality is that this is who she is, and that is the way she was brought up. Invite these people into your community and have them live next door to you, knowing they hate you and would prefer it if you were dead. Im not saying she should be walking the streets. I believe that people can change. She might not and if not then they should throw away the key but otherwise you might as well write off large chunks of the prison population. As far as I know, she hasnt harmed anyone and she hasnt plotted to harm anyone. A lot of people want to see someone dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Tory MPs resigning to join the new group now... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47306022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 On 18/02/2019 at 22:36, Bailey said: Minors are massively influenced by their environment and I would bet a lot of money that had she been brought up differently that she would have come to a very different decision. That goes for all offenders, though - do you extend the same largesse to them? When does personal responsibility begin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Oops... Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 We will be back shortly after some planned maintenance. (i.e. when everyone has agreed the wording of our statement, which may take some time.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 10 hours ago, Formby said: That goes for all offenders, though - do you extend the same largesse to them? When does personal responsibility begin? Yeh that should be the aim of the legal system, ie punishment and then rehabilitation. If offenders dont get rehabilitated then the evidence just shows the large majority go round and round in circles, between a short shit life in the outside world followed by longer spells in prison. They somehow find a way to procreate and then those kids also enter the cycle. Throw in drug addiction, mental health and poverty as well and its all a big mess which never gets any better. There does come a point when you are an adult that you have choices and can take personal responsibility for your decisions but if that cycle is all you know and there is no support for you to get out of that cycle then what else do you do? There are also plenty of people who have been given the help and not taken it and that becomes a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 I am torn now on the one hand these breakaways make sense and they do not support May or Corbyn which is all good in my book but on the other hand they want to destroy democracy which is a bit of a no no in my book too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 On 19/02/2019 at 15:03, Romey 1878 said: Yes, she can still stay where she is. Based on a decision at 15? Show me an example of where hate, anger and ignorance has ever beaten hate, anger and ignorance. If we truly want to combat and beat these extremists, it's not done on a battlefield. To beat an ideology, you show that yours is better, in this case with some understanding and compassion. I'm not saying she gets off without repercussion, but there needs to be a balance between being the bigger person and showing discipline with her case. As for taking her child away from her, why not create a martyr (of sorts) of her, potentially radicalize her child and put a target on the backs of any potential foster family? "Ripping" kids away from families is what ISIS have been doing, do we want to go down that road? If so, how much better are we than them? Also, being brought up by a "nice" family doesn't stop a teenager being influenced from outside sources. I was brought up in a good, catholic, family orientated home and until 1 particular event was a model child. The 1 event traumatized me and shook my world up, I turned to weed and some dodgy characters, followed the wrong crowds for a bit, did stupid things, hurt people (although not physically). I'm not saying it's on the same scale of joining a terrorist organisation, but the basics are the same. MikeO, Chach, StevO and 3 others 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 9 hours ago, rubecula said: they want to destroy democracy How are you coming to that conclusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 21 minutes ago, Chach said: How are you coming to that conclusion? Do you need to ask? EFC-Paul 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Matt said: Based on a decision at 15? Show me an example of where hate, anger and ignorance has ever beaten hate, anger and ignorance. If we truly want to combat and beat these extremists, it's not done on a battlefield. To beat an ideology, you show that yours is better, in this case with some understanding and compassion. I'm not saying she gets off without repercussion, but there needs to be a balance between being the bigger person and showing discipline with her case. As for taking her child away from her, why not create a martyr (of sorts) of her, potentially radicalize her child and put a target on the backs of any potential foster family? "Ripping" kids away from families is what ISIS have been doing, do we want to go down that road? If so, how much better are we than them? Also, being brought up by a "nice" family doesn't stop a teenager being influenced from outside sources. I was brought up in a good, catholic, family orientated home and until 1 particular event was a model child. The 1 event traumatized me and shook my world up, I turned to weed and some dodgy characters, followed the wrong crowds for a bit, did stupid things, hurt people (although not physically). I'm not saying it's on the same scale of joining a terrorist organisation, but the basics are the same. Yes. Go and ask the people of Manchester if we should just keep letting these people back with "understanding and compassion". So, you think she should keep her child? You don't think she should be imprisoned at all? The nice, British family comment was nothing to do with getting rid of bad outside sources. Already explained what that was about. KinL and EFC-Paul 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/sajid-javid-is-wrong-to-strip-shamima-begum-of-her-british-citizenship/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said: Yes. Go and ask the people of Manchester if we should just keep letting these people back with "understanding and compassion". So, you think she should keep her child? You don't think she should be imprisoned at all? The nice, British family comment was nothing to do with getting rid of bad outside sources. Already explained what that was about. You could use that argument for a lot things and crimes against humanity that have happened in the world, but sooner or later you have to wake up to the realisation that fighting hate with hate doesn’t work it just perpetuates the hatred. Bailey, MikeO, Matt and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 Romey serious question were you brought up in what you call a nice British family ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 People can manipulate young minds to almost believe and do anything if they have had influence from an early age, its all the child knows as such they wouldn't know any better. So if this girl has been brainwashed into hating the West and murder normalised at what point do you say she's stopped being a victim? If she has genuinely been brainwashed then who takes responsibility? Has she blamed her parents, her community? Or is she accepting responsibility? Lastly if the UK accepts she is a victim can they then leave a baby in her care? It would wrong to take a baby off a victim but at the same time it would be dangerous to leave a baby in her care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Romey 1878 said: Yes. Go and ask the people of Manchester if we should just keep letting these people back with "understanding and compassion". So, you think she should keep her child? You don't think she should be imprisoned at all? The nice, British family comment was nothing to do with getting rid of bad outside sources. Already explained what that was about. I knew you were cold but wow mate I said she should be disciplined, I’m not convinced prison is the correct punishment. Yes she should keep her child because we’re not barbarians and it’s better for the child. The people of Manchester came out in force after the attack to show support, not disgrace. That was a show of compassion and defiance against an evil ideology - the best and only way to win the “war on terror”. hate begets hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said: Romey serious question were you brought up in what you call a nice British family ? I was brought up in a nice, English family. 21 minutes ago, Matt said: I knew you were cold but wow mate I said she should be disciplined, I’m not convinced prison is the correct punishment. Yes she should keep her child because we’re not barbarians and it’s better for the child. The people of Manchester came out in force after the attack to show support, not disgrace. That was a show of compassion and defiance against an evil ideology - the best and only way to win the “war on terror”. hate begets hate. Not cold at all, Matt. No, prison is not the best place for a terrorist. Definitely not. And it’s definitely best for a child to be brought up by a terrorist. Spot on once again there. The people of Manchester would I’m sure rather that we stopped being wet wipes terrified of being labelled racist if we punished these people and have their family members alive and well. And being soft deters no one. Personally I’d rather people who’d sooner blow me up (from a distance of course) than look at me were stuck in a dark hole somewhere. KinL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 You’re confusing compassion with weakness. On the contrary, it shows strength as it is a lot harder to do. StevO and markjazzbassist 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 The girls a cunt of a human it's as simple as that KinL and StevO 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said: The girls a cunt of a human it's as simple as that We currently have members of parliament who were active terrorists that killed people as adult males due to their ideology. They weren't children whose sole sin was to marry a terrorist after being indoctrinated. We made peace with those people by talking to them even though their offences were infinitely worse than Shamima Begum (lets use her a name rather than branding her as one of "them") and they've since met the Queen and we've had peace in Northern Ireland for decades. I hesitate to accuse anyone of anything but some of the opinions espoused in this this thread I'm horrified by, they're straight out of the red top headline thoughtless hate rule-book. KinL, markjazzbassist, StevO and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeO said: We currently have members of parliament who were active terrorists that killed people as adult males due to their ideology. They weren't children whose sole sin was to marry a terrorist after being indoctrinated. We made peace with those people by talking to them even though their offences were infinitely worse than Shamima Begum (lets use her a name rather than branding her as one of "them") and they've since met the Queen and we've had peace in Northern Ireland for decades. I hesitate to accuse anyone of anything but some of the opinions espoused in this this thread I'm horrified by, they're straight out of the red top headline thoughtless hate rule-book. Non of that is applicable to what I said Mike nor have a touched or disagreed on so I'm unsure why you've quoted me on it I simply think the girls a cunt for multiple reasons many of which are on video and easily accessed by anyone not for being one "of them" KinL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 41 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said: Non of that is applicable to what I said Mike nor have a touched or disagreed on so I'm unsure why you've quoted me on it I simply think the girls a cunt for multiple reasons many of which are on video and easily accessed by anyone not for being one "of them" Which ones specifically? Terror sympathiser/terrorist. What else? Why is she a "cunt" for any reason you know of besides those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, MikeO said: Which ones specifically? Terror sympathiser/terrorist. What else? Why is she a "cunt" for any reason you know of besides those? I think those two are more than justifiable for labeling the cretin such but no there's plenty more out there if you want to look then do so Mike This Country along with Bangladesh both wouldn't refuse her citizenship on a whim..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said: I think those two are more than justifiable for labeling the cretin such but no there's plenty more out there if you want to look then do so Mike This Country along with Bangladesh both wouldn't refuse her citizenship on a whim..... So none then. Expected no more. EFC-Paul and KinL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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