The Regulator Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 What I don't get about this is our opinion that because he was the most creative player in europe we need him. Truth is, we don't. It's great that we have him, he's consistently a very talented performer, but out of 113 goalscoring opporutnities...he had 5 assists... Don't get me wrong I get the point, and it's valid, that if he can create over 100 gs opportunities he's worth more than £12m, and to a team like United I think he'd get a lot more assists and be worth more in the region of £20m....however, if we don't finish the chances he creates then he's doing it for fuck all....not being cynical about it but we could lose baines and still be alright, no other team looks to their left back to create all those kinds of opportunities because they don't need them too, they've got midfielders for that... So in my view I think if we get between 15-20m there's no reason not to accept, obviously though I want BK and RM to hold out for as long as possible because he is an important player for us, but not irreplacible, and we've got to remember that going forward... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) How many were converted?... 5! Not great for someone who was on most of the set-pieces as well. Imagine Everton didn't already have Baines, however had £15 mil to spend. Would you rather buy the left back or McCarthy with change left over for Olssen? fuckin hell pete that's all actually no that's not all has baines been tag teaming your mrs with pienaar or summat? Edited July 12, 2013 by marcopaulo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 What I don't get about this is our opinion that because he was the most creative player in europe we need him. Truth is, we don't. It's great that we have him, he's consistently a very talented performer, but out of 113 goalscoring opporutnities...he had 5 assists... Don't get me wrong I get the point, and it's valid, that if he can create over 100 gs opportunities he's worth more than £12m, and to a team like United I think he'd get a lot more assists and be worth more in the region of £20m....however, if we don't finish the chances he creates then he's doing it for fuck all....not being cynical about it but we could lose baines and still be alright, no other team looks to their left back to create all those kinds of opportunities because they don't need them too, they've got midfielders for that... So in my view I think if we get between 15-20m there's no reason not to accept, obviously though I want BK and RM to hold out for as long as possible because he is an important player for us, but not irreplacible, and we've got to remember that going forward... so then you get rid of him?! In my opinion, you invest in players to convert the chances rather than get rid of the source of the chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Regulator Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 so then you get rid of him?! In my opinion, you invest in players to convert the chances rather than get rid of the source of the chances. I didn't say get rid of him did I???????? I said if we get an offer between £15m-20m it would be realistic to accept it. They haven't bid that and nor do I think anyone else will, hence why I'm not worried. Look at the flip side, if Baines was spraying crosses in like he has been, and out of 113 chances created, we scored 50 goals, and he got 50 assists, then he'd be worth upwards of £30m easily. But we haven't have we? He's a fantastic talent, and one I hope we keep, but it shows that we haven't used him to his full capability. If we can start doing that great, because I think he can and will get even better, but there's a reason we're getting bids for him around the £10m mark...because we're not holding up our end of the bargain in finishing what he starts; if we did, Baines would be worth what we think he is. Like I said, if we converted even a third of the chances, his worth would be immeasurable. But we don't, I'm not at all saying I want to lose him, I'm saying a bid between £15m and 20m would have to be seriously considered. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 What I don't get about this is our opinion that because he was the most creative player in europe we need him. Truth is, we don't. I didn't say get rid of him did I???????? I said if we get an offer between £15m-20m it would be realistic to accept it. They haven't bid that and nor do I think anyone else will, hence why I'm not worried. Look at the flip side, if Baines was spraying crosses in like he has been, and out of 113 chances created, we scored 50 goals, and he got 50 assists, then he'd be worth upwards of £30m easily. But we haven't have we? He's a fantastic talent, and one I hope we keep, but it shows that we haven't used him to his full capability. If we can start doing that great, because I think he can and will get even better, but there's a reason we're getting bids for him around the £10m mark...because we're not holding up our end of the bargain in finishing what he starts; if we did, Baines would be worth what we think he is. Like I said, if we converted even a third of the chances, his worth would be immeasurable. But we don't, I'm not at all saying I want to lose him, I'm saying a bid between £15m and 20m would have to be seriously considered. That's all. Apologies, I maybe misunderstood, but to say we dont need him and explain selling him led me to think you were justifying selling. If the rest of the team converted 50 chances or 5, the source is Baines. So, rather than get rid of the source, regardless of price, get people who can convert the chances. With RMs style of attacking football, Im hoping his assists go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 If we only score from 5% of the chances he creates then the team need to make more chances and forwards need to be brought in to score them. Oh wait, we brought in two attacking players this week? Maybe Roberto has assessed the situation and is trying to find a way to convert more of Leighton's good work. I can't stress how important it is not to lose Baines. Matt and shetland 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) He averages 5 per season (not inc. his first season) and that was whilst being our main outlet. The thing that makes him so great is his under lap, however will that fit into RM's style or will Martinez put the onus onto the midfield to create chances? Personally, I'd rather Mirallas be the one attacking on the left next season and think he'd generate more goals/assists than the old over/under lapping system. Mirallas won't get bk as well as Pienaar did, so will need a player to shadow behind him to pick up the mess and that would be a waste of talent if we used Baines in that role (plus there are players better and cheaper for that role) rather than cash in and strengthen a key area. Edited July 12, 2013 by pete0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droobie Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 We already have Coleman charging up the right. Baines creates on the left. Why take away one our avenues going forward? Oviedo is no where near the creator that Baines is. That being said, no player is irreplaceable, and everyone has his price. We don't WANT to sell him, but at the right price, and if he wants go, let him go. I would expected at least two decent players for the money, a left back and midfielder with money to spare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 We already have Coleman charging up the right. Baines creates on the left. Why take away one our avenues going forward? Oviedo is no where near the creator that Baines is. That being said, no player is irreplaceable, and everyone has his price. We don't WANT to sell him, but at the right price, and if he wants go, let him go. I would expected at least two decent players for the money, a left back and midfielder with money to spare. to be fair thats only true because he doesnt play. He could, potentially, be as creative. The only way I would accept him leaving is him saying he wants to go. otherwise, no amount of money would tempt me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Regulator Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Apologies, I maybe misunderstood, but to say we dont need him and explain selling him led me to think you were justifying selling. If the rest of the team converted 50 chances or 5, the source is Baines. So, rather than get rid of the source, regardless of price, get people who can convert the chances. With RMs style of attacking football, Im hoping his assists go up. Maybe I didn'ty word it properly when first posting, trying to get my point across quickly when I'm in work is pretty hard. My whole point is basically no player is invaluable, every one has a price and if a price came in that was high enough for Baines we'd be foolish to not accept it. Does everyone else think Baines only does good things for us? How about the fact alone that because he barely ever gets injured and plays every game means no one else at the club can develop at left back, the likes of Garbutt and Oviedo deserve games, more than they will ever get if the same policy next season is applied that baines must start every match. And this brings me to RM. It's valid as SteveO says that if we're bringing in attacking players to help convert chances then it's an even bigger argument for Baines to stay. What I want though is a team that doesn't need Baines to win matches, because that's how we know we're getting stronger as team,. Over reliance on a player is bad thing, or am I the only one who thinks that? Like I've said Baines is a fantastic talent, one that I hope to hell we can keep hold of. But if we get a realistic bid for a 28 year old defender who's already played some of his best football, why would we point blank refuse it because we think he's worth £30-40m? It doesn't make sense, £20m is a great price for us for Baines, but he's not worth that much. Seriously. £17-18m is realitsic. If we got a bid for that, from a club bigger than ourselves, we would accept it. That still doesn't mean Baines would go, or would want to go at that, but the money from that would do a lot more for the club than maybe people realise. I think transfer prices are so over inflated nowadays its ridiculous. And no, on the counter argument I don't think Glen Johnson for example is worth the same as baines, but at the time, if you remember, there was a sudden surge that summer to draft in young english talent. The fact that glen is english, was a half decent RB with potetntial to be very good, and that it was the shite (Andy carroll??) I'm not surprised he went for £18m. The price isn't just made of what the player is worth to the club he plays for, it's all the factors in the equation. My argument is that even if Baines is the best left back at the moment, there are too many other factors at play to say he is worth £20m +. I think Leighton is amazing and if he stays great, but £18m isn't an unrealistic figure, given you could probably get Evra or Cole for £10m, and someone like Assou-Ekotto for £5m. Seriously, there aren't many left backs worth more than £20m, in fact very little. Maybe Alba or Contreaou because of their age and ability, but even then, that's still pretty high. Baines is a gem, but he is not all we are, and it's foolish to think he is. If Fellaini went for £23m I wouldn't be happy as I'd want to keep him, but it's a fair price. Like I said, everyone has a price, and realistically Baines is lower than we think, but it's still not low is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Alba is 4 years younger than Baines and got sold for less than £12 mil. Baines is slightly better, but if you take the age difference into account I'd say it gives a fair price. Obviously Everton will want a premium on top because we don't want to sell, but I can't see any club going over £16 mil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 According to this report, ManU said to be "closing in" on a £40m total deal to get Baines and Fellaini. This meets Everton's valuation for Baines of £16m and would be enough to activate Fellaini's buy-out clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 I think 16m is a bit insulting given they're one of the richest clubs, who's manager adores him, and he is the highest profile left back in the Prem. They'll have to try a bit harder than that, surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 With £40m, Everton could lay a strong foundation for the future. That's ten players at the £4m mark, four players at the £10m, or even two £20m players - excluding the wage and agent fee implications, of course. Throw in a couple of up-and-coming young players from the ManU ranks, and it would be an offer hard to refuse. In the end, logic and planning for the future have to weigh emotional attachment to any particular player, right? The goal is to playing again in Europe, and no single player is essential to that bigger goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 That wouldn't be the case though. I would imagine we'd spend a large amount of it but certainly not all. Some would go towards the debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) Alot of people were baulking at us for paying £5m for a 29 year old, the same people want another team to pay £20m for a 28 year old, 29 in december. Anything over £12m and we should snap their hand off, i think Oviedo is going to be a reasonable replacement anyway. Then Garbutt can be brought along on the bench. Edited July 12, 2013 by Bill pete0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 £40m? £30m on players £10m to the banks With £30m, that's potentially 3 £8m players and two squad fillers/raw youngsters @ £3m each. Or a couple of top top players at £12m and squad fillers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Alot of people were baulking at us for paying £5m for a 29 year old, the same people want another team to pay £20m for a 28 year old, 29 in december. Anything over £12m and we should snap their hand off, i think Oviedo is going to be a reasonable replacement anyway. Then Garbutt can be brought along on the bench. 12m? lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 So let's put some meat on the argument: 1) Fellaini and Baines leave for £40m plus maybe a couple of youth players from their academy 2) Follow-on fee for Fellaini, agent fees, etc. bring this down to £32m 3) Bring in Clement Chantome, Toby Alderweireld, Jorginho, and Victor Moses for £8m apiece 4) Bring in two or three young squad players with what's left of the TV money Now there is one powerful team for the future. Sibdane 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Im hoping he stays because the thought of him and Coleman bombing down the wings with a fluid midfield, two exciting midfielders and the movement of Kone makes me salivate a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Why are people thinking Martinez won't want to utilize Baines in the same way that he's been so effective? Why does Baines apparently not fit into Martinez's "style"? Martinez referred to him as a fucking "Everton icon" last week. And I wouldn't wager that Martinez is someone to take a single gameplan and implement it aimlessly. He's not an idiot. With a player like Baines, I think you'd hold onto him and see what you can get out of him first, even if he doesn't fit your "style". StevO and Matt 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Chap called John Merro on twitter says Baines is signing on a long term deal immenently. He seems pretty sure of himself and seems to have a few followers including people I follow and have a good track record. Delighted if this is the case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuffRob Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 At the right price we just have to sell a 28 going on 29 year old left back - Anything above or around £15M has to be seriously considered by a club with Everton's resources. Baines has done amazing for us, but is likely to be his maximum transfer value this summer. Heart says don't sell, but head says cash in and move toward building the next squad of players under Martinez. I am afraid the only way our squad can develop is by cashing in on players that can generate big profits. We did it with Rooney, Lescott and to a lesser extent with Arteta and Rodwell, It is shit watching some of your talisman player going out of the door - but that is the reality of our club I am afraid. Put it another way if Martinez had £15M to spend and Baines played for another club, how any think that his £15M budget would be BEST spend on 28year old left back? Because that's the real dilemma in a nutshell. At the sort of prices being quoted in has to be difficult for the board to say no. Whatever happens its a good position to be in - we will either have one of the world left back in the team next year of a fair few quid in the bank for the new manager to spend. So no doom and gloom from me as its win - win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 He's the most influential player we put on the field. He's a fan favorite. He's a boyhood supporter. He's been here for some time, so keeps stability. He isn't going anywhere. Selling someone like Baines, unless he's pushing for it, isn't really our MO. He will want to stay. I, personally, think the consistency of personnel in our back 4 is hugely important going into this season. If we lost players from anywhere else, we'd survive, but we need this group to stick together this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Why are people thinking Martinez won't want to utilize Baines in the same way that he's been so effective? Why does Baines apparently not fit into Martinez's "style"? Martinez referred to him as a fucking "Everton icon" last week. And I wouldn't wager that Martinez is someone to take a single gameplan and implement it aimlessly. He's not an idiot. With a player like Baines, I think you'd hold onto him and see what you can get out of him first, even if he doesn't fit your "style". I don't see how he doesn't fit Martinez' style either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Rumour has it that Baines is to sign a new 5 year deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt321 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Theres no way they will pay 20 million. If we got 16 to 18 that would be pretty good and you'd have to take it. Hopefully with Martinez's new playing style we wont be so reliant on baines to create almost everything and it will work out alright. Cake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Well, if he is sold one thing's for sure, Shaw from Southampton is a complete nogoer as a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Chap called John Merro on twitter says Baines is signing on a long term deal immenently. He seems pretty sure of himself and seems to have a few followers including people I follow and have a good track record. Delighted if this is the case! Sorry to disapoint, Merro has proven himself to be weak source in the past Sibdane 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Yeah Merro is bollocks. Picks up rumours on twitter and posts them as fact. Got tons of stuff wrong last year, including Rodellaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts