c1982 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Am i allowed to agree av or is that too arse licky? I'd much rather vellios played 90 mins every week somewhere else rather than 10 a week here...don't see the negatives at all..i remember he started one game and looked out of his depth..he isn't ready Spot on... I'm joining this arse licking too! Many Evertonians forget that Moyes works with these players on a daily basis and it would be to his benefit if they were ready to be first team starters and better than what we've got. Not every youngster is the new Wayne Rooney, not every youngster is better than what we have. I remember some wanting Junior in over Neville - on what basis? Yes Neville may have lean spells but replace him with someone who we all know little about - nonsense! Look at the bigger picture and look to Leon Osman as an shining example - into his 30's now and didn't starting playing 1st team until 23 but feels like he's been here forever. Not all players are thrown in at 16,17,18 - ROONEY IS A ONCE IN A HOWEVER MANY YEARS! Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Spot on... I'm joining this arse licking too! Many Evertonians forget that Moyes works with these players on a daily basis and it would be to his benefit if they were ready to be first team starters and better than what we've got. I'd rather a younger player with less ability play and gain experience than a out of form pro. One gets experience the other gets a rest or kick up the jacksy win-win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 I'd rather a younger player with less ability play and gain experience than a out of form pro. One gets experience the other gets a rest or kick up the jacksy win-win. Not if the youngster isn't ready so not good enough yet! Or the youngster doesn't play in said position to replace senior player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Not if the youngster isn't ready so not good enough yet! Or the youngster doesn't play in said position to replace senior player. How else is the youngster going to get ready? We have many kid strikers yet Moyes would rather play a senior out of position or continue to flog a dead horse, it probs the most annoying thing Moyes does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Youngsters do play against/with the 1st team in training. They do play with 1st teamers in u21 fixtures, they do have a pre-season training with the senior players, Moyes and his staff do lead/attend these. They are in a better position and more qualified than us to judge what experience these youngsters need. Who's the dead horse striker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Youngsters do play against/with the 1st team in training. They do play with 1st teamers in u21 fixtures, they do have a pre-season training with the senior players, Moyes and his staff do lead/attend these. They are in a better position and more qualified than us to judge what experience these youngsters need. Who's the dead horse striker? Saha last season. Jelavic the out-of-form this season. Training with the team isn't enough to develop, you need actual minutes playing competitively. Look at McLean last season for Sunderland, couldn't get a game, new manager came in and took a chance on him it done the club wonders. Edited January 16, 2013 by pete0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Saha last season. Jelavic the out-of-form this season. Vellios got a couple of starts but looked out of his depth at times when Saha was here - the dead horse was given away. I would not play Vellios over Jelavic, he's not as good as him in simple terms. If we had options like Man.Utd, Man.City, then dropping an off peak Jela would be easy but in reality we've got a Greek u21 striker as back-up not top class internationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Jelavic has had bad luck too, hitting the woodwork, or just going wide. I'd play Vic because I believe in him, but Jelly will come good again. He still nicks the odd goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Training with the team isn't enough to develop, you need actual minutes playing competitively. Look at McLean last season for Sunderland, couldn't get a game, new manager came in and took a chance on him it done the club wonders. What qualification or experience do you have to say what experience youngsters gain from training/being involved with the 1st team? James McClean was 22 - broke through at a similar age to Seamus. Moyes has done well with Seamus. McClean seems to have plateaued like Coleman had before he was moved to RB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 I wouldn't advocate dropping Jelavic for Vellios but I would like Vellios to get more time than just throwing him on for two minutes at the end of games. Steve_E and Bailey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Vellios got a couple of starts but looked out of his depth at times when Saha was here - the dead horse was given away. I would not play Vellios over Jelavic, he's not as good as him in simple terms. If we had options like Man.Utd, Man.City, then dropping an off peak Jela would be easy but in reality we've got a Greek u21 striker as back-up not top class internationals. He had the option of dropping him for an on form Anichebe, but didn't. Imo, he should have done this and promoted Vellios to be the first striker subbed on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 What qualification or experience do you have to say what experience youngsters gain from training/being involved with the 1st team? James McClean was 22 - broke through at a similar age to Seamus. Moyes has done well with Seamus. McClean seems to have plateaued like Coleman had before he was moved to RB. Common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Common sense. Well done - of course they gain experience of occasion/ working with 1st team but who are you to say what level they need? Do Moyes and his staff lack common sense for not playing these lads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 He had the option of dropping him for an on form Anichebe, but didn't. Imo, he should have done this and promoted Vellios to be the first striker subbed on. We also played Stracqualursi ahead of him a lot of the time. Hard worker, but didn't have the required pace or touch, and he was only here on loan. Never should he have been preferred over Vellios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Well done - of course they gain experience of occasion/ working with 1st team but who are you to say what level they need? Do Moyes and his staff lack common sense for not playing these lads? Wow, no I'm not a fully qualified UEFA coach, but it doesn't take a genius to know experience makes you better. You can wank all day, but watching a few pornos won't make you a porn star. You need to get in there and do some fucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Wow, no I'm not a fully qualified UEFA coach, but it doesn't take a genius to know experience makes you better. You can wank all day, but watching a few pornos won't make you a porn star. You need to get in there and do some fucking. I'm sure the badge is on it's way! Lowering to your tone, if you are a young pornstar you can learn off more experienced pornstars without taking the starring role in the blockbuster movie as you are learning with them on a daily basis not necessarily in the public eye knowing one day, if you're good enough, you'll be ready to perform at the highest level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 What qualification or experience do you have to say what experience youngsters gain from training/being involved with the 1st team? James McClean was 22 - broke through at a similar age to Seamus. Moyes has done well with Seamus. McClean seems to have plateaued like Coleman had before he was moved to RB. Well done - of course they gain experience of occasion/ working with 1st team but who are you to say what level they need? Do Moyes and his staff lack common sense for not playing these lads? I'm sure the badge is on it's way! Lowering to your tone, if you are a young pornstar you can learn off more experienced pornstars without taking the starring role in the blockbuster movie as you are learning with them on a daily basis not necessarily in the public eye knowing one day, if you're good enough, you'll be ready to perform at the highest level. My tone? Behave yourself, and go have a pint with yer bezzie Dunc in the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 My tone? Behave yourself, and go have a pint with yer bezzie Dunc in the corner. You on your period pet? The tone was lowered as you had to turn it into porno chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 You on your period pet? The tone was lowered as you had to turn it into porno chat. The tone was lowered when you spoke down to me. This forum would be a lot smaller if you needed to be a fully qualified coach. Look at John Barnes and the countless other managers who are more qualified than me, doesn't mean their way is better than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Yawwwwnnnn.... The old "how are you more qualified to know better than the people who make the decisions, because you don't make them then you aren't". I'm sure Lewis Hamilton would have preferred another 5 years at a lower level before going into formula 1. No, his emergence meant alonso could be moved on. Im sure James Milner hates the fact that he was playing for Leeds at 16. I see Ryan giggs suffered due to his early involvement, not to mention the likes of scholes, casillas, Kevin Davies, nick barmby, gerrard, Lampard, carragher, blimey - yeah let's keep them under wraps till they are 25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Yawwwwnnnn.... The old "how are you more qualified to know better than the people who make the decisions, because you don't make them then you aren't". I'm sure Lewis Hamilton would have preferred another 5 years at a lower level before going into formula 1. No, his emergence meant alonso could be moved on. Im sure James Milner hates the fact that he was playing for Leeds at 16. I see Ryan giggs suffered due to his early involvement, not to mention the likes of scholes, casillas, Kevin Davies, nick barmby, gerrard, Lampard, carragher, blimey - yeah let's keep them under wraps till they are 25 Yawn - the he's amazing based on the few moments I've seen him although I don't know the lad or see him working on a daily basis - I'll ignore he looked out of his depth when thrown in as he's young. The kids will play when they're ready, name one who has gone on to better things because Moyes ignored him and wouldn't play him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 vellios is nowhere near jelavic's level even though jelavic is not scoring as many goals hes still putting a shift in and the goals will come. Exactly, Victor looks more prolific than Vellios too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Blimey - how many opportunities has our Vic had to get where he is right now??? I will make a comparison between the two as theyb both share target men attributes. Vellios looks far better in the air, heck of a leap. He holds up the ball better and has a better touch. I will say one thing does stand out - Vellios looks hungry and has a work ethic. In the 5 minutes he had on the pitch the other week he looked sharp and wasnt afraid to put himself about. I think there could be justification for Vic and Vellios both getting time together, certainly give Jelavic a much needed rocket. pete0 and SimonButtle 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Blimey - how many opportunities has our Vic had to get where he is right now??? Plenty as will Vellios if he continues to apply himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 I wouldn't advocate dropping Jelavic for Vellios but I would like Vellios to get more time than just throwing him on for two minutes at the end of games. Im with this. Jelavic for me is a top class striker going through a rough patch. I would normally say we should drop players like this but Jelavic is still working hard and doing what he always has done. His head hasnt dropped once. The only time he has played crap is when the we have played crap as a team and generally hoofed it up to him. He is a striker that wants the ball on the deck, running towards goal with plenty of support. We simply havent done that enough recently. All young players need competitive games. You can say what you like about training and U21 games but they mean jack shit when it comes to playing 1st team footy on a saturday in front of 40,000 people. You learn all the technique and crap at Finch Farm but you dont know how to play top flight 1st team football until you play it. For me Vellios looks to have good technique, he reads the game well and has good physical strength, whilst also not being that slow off the mark. The aspect he lacks is that real match experience, what to do when it comes to crunch time when the pressure is on and unfortunately the only place to learn is on the pitch, either with Everton or on loan somewhere else. chicagoblue and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Plenty as will Vellios if he continues to apply himself. So are you saying Vic applied himself to get his chances? I would seriously disagree, the lad has shown a very poor attitude over the years, only showing glimpses of what he can do mixed in with bratty behaviour and lazy forward play. Vellios has done nothing wrong in the opportunities he had, he scored 3 goals with substitute appearances that made him top scorer before Jelavic came along. As Bailey said, the only area he needs to improve is experience and getting that bit of know how. Heres a reminder as to why we maybe haven't seen much of him - courtesy of StevO.... Vellios was moved to the reserves for having unauthorised one on one training sessions with Ferguson after training had finished. It went on for a few weeks when he was getting games, when Ferguson told Moyes how well Vellios had progressed in these session he gave them both down the banks for not informing him what was going on .Vellios hasn't had a look in since. That came from Duncans mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideliner Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) you can only compare Velios to Jelavic and Anichebe if he has had more or less the same opportunities - at this stage nobody (not even Mr Moyes mind you ) really knows how good or bad Velios will be after having had say 5 starts in an Everton line-up - so we are all speculating about his abillity - the abillity of and form of Jelavic and Anichebe this season however is well documented - can anybody tell me how many more chances \ games must Jelavic still be given to find his form ? the whole season ? two seasons ? till we are a mid table team again ? till Liverpool go past us on the table? - or till doomsday comes ? what must Velios do to get a few starts ? score goals ?, how many ? only allow Mr Moyes to train him ? be bought by another club after a good show in championship ? or when he is 25 ? or only when Mr Moyes ( and nobody else) thinks he is ready because he always knows best ? Why did we buy him if he was so useless and inexperienced ? even after 3 years - that was not very clever Mr moyes Edited January 17, 2013 by Sideliner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 So are you saying Vic applied himself to get his chances? I would seriously disagree, the lad has shown a very poor attitude over the years, only showing glimpses of what he can do mixed in with bratty behaviour and lazy forward play. Vic did more than Vellios last season when given chances yes. Vic has been an important player this season scoring some important goals. In the past Vic has been a controversial character but he seems to have learned a bit as he's matured and is now a valuable member of our 1st team/squad. As for what steveO has said regarding Ferguson/Vellios, I'm not saying he's lying but maybe he's been misinformed or not got the full story as it sounds total nonsense. Regarding 1st team experience - Moyes putting the youngsters in the match day squad is part of their development regardless if they get on the pitch or not, besides nerves/occasion affects people in different ways some will thrive on it some won't. Hopefully we will be on a European platform next season which will allow Moyes to give some of the kids a few more minutes as it has done in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Luke Chadwick was given 1224 minutes (13.6 full matches) over 30 games as Fergie tried to find if he had the extra level in him to be a top footballer. It didn't work for Chadwick, but look at how instrumental the likes of Fletcher and Evans became. It would be nice if Moyes looked at his peers methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcirony Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) What about Osman and Hibbert? Same methods. We had to sell Rooney, he would have stayed in the first team. Rodwell would have been in the first team this season but we obviously needed the money. I don't think it's always down to his methods. Edited January 17, 2013 by MoyesForPM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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