Avinalaff Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 he needs to change because, as you said, the footballing world has moved on. tactics have changed all across football, but not at everton. he made these achievements when his tactics were current, they are now old hat. How many colours can you keep painting the same fence with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 How many colours can you keep painting the same fence with? i dont get it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 i dont get it He has the same bunch of players, less 3 or 4 stars, and a bunch of kids coming through. How can he keep finding new ways to utilise the same guys? Give him fresh faces, and he'll give you fresh tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 but in ten years he has had fresh faces but no fresh tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 He has the same bunch of players, less 3 or 4 stars, and a bunch of kids coming through. How can he keep finding new ways to utilise the same guys? Give him fresh faces, and he'll give you fresh tactics. Hes had quite a few new faces - the team we have now is completely different to 2004/2005! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 but in ten years he has had fresh faces but no fresh tactics. Sorry mate, but a few of you are starting to sound like spoilt kids who can't understand why your parents aren't able to afford to get you an Xbox for Christmas. "You can't have one, end of conversation. Now get up to your room and don't come out until you learn to accept you can't always have what you want". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 we arent saying we want new players, we arent saying we want a new manager. we are saying there is no excuse for playing the same style of football for so long. thats hardly acting like spoilt kids, its a perfectly reasonable train of thought. im pretty confident in saying that there is no other team in the premier league that has played the same way for even half as long. most teams wont even play the same formation for three years, let alone ten. i understand you support moyes fully, but i dont get how you cant see this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 we arent saying we want new players, we arent saying we want a new manager. we are saying there is no excuse for playing the same style of football for so long. thats hardly acting like spoilt kids, its a perfectly reasonable train of thought. im pretty confident in saying that there is no other team in the premier league that has played the same way for even half as long. most teams wont even play the same formation for three years, let alone ten. i understand you support moyes fully, but i dont get how you cant see this too. Are we playing the same though (would it be better with it's own thread?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 we are playing the same. we still line up with a 451, we still have the striker running the channels, we still defend with every man from a corner, we still hit free kicks and corners stright into the box. beattie, aj, yak and saha are all expected to play the same way, yet all are different types fo player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 we are playing the same. we still line up with a 451, we still have the striker running the channels, we still defend with every man from a corner, we still hit free kicks and corners stright into the box. beattie, aj, yak and saha are all expected to play the same way, yet all are different types fo player. Big improvement on row z Tommy G, and Stubbs and Artetas Pink Floyd tribute. That said Moyes and the player should mix it up. Unless a team has a player with a delivery like Beckham the players should share the set-piece duties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 ah, it took me a while to work it out, but im with you now pete! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 ah, it took me a while to work it out, but im with you now pete! I used to hate the freekicks Gladys st end, because it was like Tommy Graveson was aiming for me. Seeing Grav and Stubbs over a freekick was disheartening at times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 I think he proved again on Saturday, quite categorically, that he is not yet ready to be starting games In that case, Cahill can be tarnished with the same brush. Or Saha from the game before. I agree he probably shouldnt be starting games but that game against Stoke was probably one of the toughest games he could have been brought into. he needs to change because, as you said, the footballing world has moved on. tactics have changed all across football, but not at everton. he made these achievements when his tactics were current, they are now old hat. I think his tactics have changed throughout his time here. We started as hoofball & set play merchants, improved to play some really good football (in both attack and defence) with flair, movement and confidence but slowly we are reverting back to where we came from without the same tenacity and drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 In that case, Cahill can be tarnished with the same brush. Or Saha from the game before. I agree he probably shouldnt be starting games but that game against Stoke was probably one of the toughest games he could have been brought into. I think his tactics have changed throughout his time here. We started as hoofball & set play merchants, improved to play some really good football (in both attack and defence) with flair, movement and confidence but slowly we are reverting back to where we came from without the same tenacity and drive. I think losing Lescott was a turning point. Losing Arteta, Pienaar, Donovan, Gosling, Yakubu etc etc hasn't helped either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 I think losing Lescott was a turning point. Losing Arteta, Pienaar, Donovan, Gosling, Yakubu etc etc hasn't helped either. Donovan has never been ours, pienaar and arteta are the only two if those players who were "footballers" and to be honest drenthe is more than capable of doing pienaars job and more, plus Barkley has the arteta technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Donovan has never been ours, pienaar and arteta are the only two if those players who were "footballers" and to be honest drenthe is more than capable of doing pienaars job and more, plus Barkley has the arteta technique. Huh? How can you say Donovan isn't ours (here on loan during our good spell) and then talk about Drenthe (here on loan during our bad spell) who isn't ours either? And after 3 games, you have Barkley all figured out already I see? Come on Haf, you're normally sharper than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Huh? How can you say Donovan isn't ours (here on loan during our good spell) and then talk about Drenthe (here on loan during our bad spell) who isn't ours either? And after 3 games, you have Barkley all figured out already I see? Come on Haf, you're normally sharper than that. We had Donovan for 10 appearances, you were referring to him as a player who was instrumental in our style, hardly a fixture. Barkley has showed more ability than anyone else in the type of role we are crying out for. Drenthe is on a season long loan - available for up to 30 odd games, big difference av. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoblue Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 A lot of interesting thoughts on here. I think a lot of the consternation comes from the fact that we were playing much better football 2 years ago. To look at us now and think about what we were capable seems a big step back. Yes, we've lost some of out most technical players, but with the glimpses we've seen from Drenthe and Barkley its easy to think we should be able to pick right back up footballing. Unfortunately that's not happening. We might not have the players we need to be one touching it about, but when there's only one strategy, even when it's clear that strategy isn't working, that's when people are right to get worried. Is Velios a world beater. Obviously not, but no one really though he was. Apparently though Moyes thinks that he's not a back to goal player at all, hence the crosses. But, it was clear from the off that long balls and crosses weren't going to threaten Stoke, yet we persisted with them all game long. When we hadn't mustered a single shot on goal through the entire first half that's when we needed to change it. And not just one player, like for like. We needed to change the attack plan, it needed to be on the ground and through the middle; or at least that needed to be an option. Running the same play over and over makes it so easy for the defenders to mark, they don't have to even think. To say that's Velios fault is a bit ridiculous, and quite off the mark from Moyes. Clearly Velios was told to lead a high line and not come back into midfield. Plans A, B and C were to get it wide and whip in crosses. That's not down to Velios' "intelligence", or at least not on the intelligence he displayed in the game. That's down to black and white instructions from Moyes. Now maybe he really doesn't have it in his locker now to be a link up man and play back to goal, I wouldn't be surprised, he's only 19. But if the plan is to bombard the biggest defence in the league with crosses all game, then at the very least you need to put your two big bastards up there and let them batter away. 4-5-1 at home with a "one dimensional" striker is a recipe for, best case awful football, but really just a loss. If Moyes didn't know that going in, or if he didn't know Velios was not "intelligent" enough to play that roll then I have to suggest that some re-evaluation needs to go on. I have no doubt most Evertonians thought "oh here we go again" when we showed our cards, and they weren't wrong. Going into the Emirates after that performance is going to be tough. Unrelated, has anyone seen Stracq play in any reserve games? How does he look? -- Putting the coffee away, back to exams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 But certainly wasn't helped. ANyone with the lack of service we provided would have struggled to play in the role given to him on Sunday. Woodgate - Seasoned proffesional, tall, trong and can read the game. Shawcross - Lumbering yet promising defender who's all round attributes hold him up as a decent defender. Vellios - Young kid, full of potential, given no service or support and asked to deal foremostly with the two above, as well as lead the line and be responsible for scoring. Dunc, think you're being a bit harsh on the lad. I agree it'll be a while before Vellios is really really ready, but he's better than other options that we have. Saha's been nothing less than woeful of late and he's had the same service. I know your feelings about Saha, and if he can't do it, then how can the kid be expected to? Vellios could potentially thrive given the support (or a partner (who ironically could be saha *mentioned in other post*)). So he's not ready ready, but he'll never improve if we don't play him with someone who is compatible with him. Lol so you think Im being harsh yet you agree? Im not saying he is a bad player, far from it in fact, but he is clearly not yet ready Its true the service up to him was poor, however he didnt help himself. There was next to no movement from him all night.. Woodgate might as well have bought him a packet of crisps and a can of coke and told him to go aand wait in the car he was that effective. At every set piece if Velios tried to take up a decent position Woodgate or Shawcross would just come and move him along he just wasnt strong enough to hold his ground I do think the lad has a lot of potential and as Ive said before the only way he is going to improve is with minutes on the pitch but at the moment I just think uts better for him to get those minutes coming off the bench Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 You can't blame Vellios for not being able to impact the game on Sunday. Cahill didn't, Saha wouldn't have if he was on the pitch... It doesn't mean they aren't ready to start games, clearly. However, it is asking a lot of Vellios to lead a 4-5-1 in the Premiership at his age, particularly with such dreadful service. Let's give Stracqua a start and put Vellios on in the second half to do what he's done a handful of times already and nab a goal. You clearly havent seen much of Denis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Hardly an article to be getting worked up about. Sometimes I wonder if fans react to a certain 'tone' that is set from an initial post, similar to who ever gets in first on the motm thread tends to influence others. It comes as no surprise that an article interpreted by Haf will be negative and anti Moyes. That's what Haf reads, but we all know his 'stance' is anti Moyes, so his views are generally extreme. If you look for things you'll find them. Are we now to hold Moyes to every word he says? Is he going to end up like a prisoner, scared to open his mouth, in case the 'Moyes Out !' brigade jump down his throat? If Moyes managed Spurs, and we played negative football, I could agree with Haf on many things, as he is clearly intelligent even if his negativity gets on my tits, but Moyes manages Everton, and the difference between the 2 sides is for all to see. Fans say it is unfair to expoect Vellios to succeed against Stoke on one hand, yet call for him to lead the team on the other. If he is no good against Stoke, then he is clearly not the finished article, and that is 'clearly' why Moyes has been using him sparingly, but unfortunately some fans think they know better than Moyes. You don't. Excellent post, couldnt agree more No disrespect to Haf he is clearly a passionate Evertonian but at the moment if he burnt his toast in the morning it woud either be Moyes, BK or Cahill that was to blame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 You clearly havent seen much of Denis! Has anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Excellent post, couldnt agree more No disrespect to Haf he is clearly a passionate Evertonian but at the moment if he burnt his toast in the morning it woud either be Moyes, BK or Cahill that was to blame Burning my toast would be a case of overdoing it - you could never blame that on any of them! The clear problem is that we are experiencing everything we were worried about when moyes sold 3 of our 5 strikers. Pinning our hopes on an inexperienced youngster isn't good, what's worse is that many of us see him as being a better option than Cahill and Saha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Excellent post, couldnt agree more No disrespect to Haf he is clearly a passionate Evertonian but at the moment if he burnt his toast in the morning it woud either be Moyes, BK or Cahill that was to blame Maybe Moyes will have to 'butter' him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Burning my toast would be a case of overdoing it - you could never blame that on any of them! The clear problem is that we are experiencing everything we were worried about when moyes sold 3 of our 5 strikers. Pinning our hopes on an inexperienced youngster isn't good, what's worse is that many of us see him as being a better option than Cahill and Saha. I agree it is a massive problem To be fair though Vaughan was even more injury prone than Saha and Yakubu was a waste of space because he couldnt be arsed playing for us anymore so we dont really miss either of those 2 Beckford drove me nuts because he brought nothing to the table apart from the odd goal but I think Velious can do that anyway and Moyes was probably hoping the gamble of bringing in Denis would pay off........it hasnt! Its clear we need a forward but weve needed one for years and there in lies the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I think we need 2 or 3 forwards, 3 or 4 midfielders, and a few defenders ... oh, a goaly would be cool if there is any cash left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Linked with a loan move to Leicester according to NSNO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Linked with a loan move to Leicester according to NSNO. Wouldn't be a bad move considering he's our fourth choice striker now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Linked with a loan move to Leicester according to NSNO. I would be all for it on the basis that he will come back to us. I'd hate for him to do well at Leicester and then Moyes lets him go on the cheap to them. In my opinion he has the ability to become our starting striker and in some years I can see him being on the world stage, hence why he is on the back of my shirt and I'd have his babies. Wouldn't be a bad move considering he's our fourth choice striker now. Should be second behind Jelavic in my opinion - Vellios is quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 In my opinion he has the ability to become our starting striker and in some years I can see him being on the world stage, hence why he is on the back of my shirt and I'd have his babies. I think he's good but personally I've only seen the lad play a couple of times, do you really think he could be a world class striker? I know he's only young but surly he's not that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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