Longest Thread! for Everton Discussion

[MikeO]

Next year's will be interesting because they'll include the Lukaku fee, whereas these have been boosted by the Fellaini money (in fact £28m profit=Felli fee almost exactly).

 

That's £50m+ swing (ignoring other dealings obviously) so could be a bit more sobering news.

[Matt]

Next year's will be interesting because they'll include the Lukaku fee, whereas these have been boosted by the Fellaini money (in fact £28m profit=Felli fee almost exactly).

 

That's £50m+ swing (ignoring other dealings obviously) so could be a bit more sobering news.

This is my concern, Mike. Add to that the additional contracts (Barkleys alone is an extra 2m a year) and hopefully no player sales, we may well be borrowing back on what we just paid off.

[Newty82]

Just glanced at the accounts, I'm no expert to be honest. While I'm happy that we have made a 'profit' and paid off some 'debt'...A deeper look at the numbers makes you think that Bill and Elstone are blowing smoke up their own arseholes without valid reason. And I'm not an open critic of these guys but they have peeved me a bit with their press talk.

 

Let me explain...

 

Firstly, I'm not concerned by the previous points about Fellaini/Lukaku/double whammy next year. This is because 'Operating Profit', excluding player transfers, was£23.7mill.

 

This is mainly because of a significant increase in TV revenue. And that's my gripe with Bill and Bob patting themselves on the back.

 

Our income went from £86.4mill to £120.5mill (+£34.1mill). Of which, £32.8mill is TV money (every club will see a sizeable increase in TV money. We benefited a bit more due to an increase in live games through attractive football). That means that the powers at our club and their commercial buddies managed to raise an extra £1.3mill through their activities. Or did they? Gate receipts were up £1.9mill (more season tickets sold and higher attendances due to extra optimism amongst fans). Sponsorship, Advertising and Merchandising was up by just £800, 000 while bizarrely Catering dropped by £200,000 and 'other commercial' fell by £1mill!

 

So beyond the extra TV money, and the extra Gate Receipts from you lot...the bits I would closely associate to the 'behind the scenes people' (that being Commercial, Sponsorship, Advertising, Catering etc) actually fell by £400,000!

 

Feel free to correct me if I have that wrong.

 

I don't find that acceptable at all. We are a club that regularly finishes in the top 6. A well recognised traditional club. We have a long running deal with Chang which is supposed to expose us to the Eastern market and therefore, you would think, increase our commercial income. Yet clearly it isn't as our commercial revenues are poor.

 

The accounts also potentially reveal that we were paying way to much for Finch Farm rental. As we know, the Council bought Finch Farm and rented it back to us. This has helped our 'Land and Properties' rental go from £1.4mill to £550,000. So thanks to the council for that!

 

The only other real standout is the increase of the much debated and mysterious 'Other Operating Costs' from £21.5mill to £26mill...although I read a note about some sort of youth/community development thing that was £4.5mill...I think this is the first time some of the other operating costs have ever been elaborated on...so what's the other £21million???

 

Like I say, correct me if I have anything wrong here!!!

Edited November 1, 2014 by Newty82

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fcs-strong-financial-results-8028381

[Hafnia]

If you normalise the numbers by taking out player sales, tv revenue and look at our commercial performance it's not great.

 

For me a stadium move is a must. The club needs a 60,000 seater with state of the art refreshment areas and or half time ordering cashless system that allows all fans the option of getting a beer or hot dog etc. This will boost revenue significantly.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

To be fair this goy is a professor who specialises in football finances and if he says were doing ok I would tend to believe him, unless of cause hes part of some dastardly BK conspiracy

[Hafnia]

To be fair this goy is a professor who specialises in football finances and if he says were doing ok I would tend to believe him, unless of cause hes part of some dastardly BK conspiracy

Tom Cannon thought the Kirby stadium move was a good idea. He is used as a consultant to the board....

 

I have no faith in anything he says.

[Newty82]

To be fair this goy is a professor who specialises in football finances and if he says were doing ok I would tend to believe him, unless of cause hes part of some dastardly BK conspiracy

I agree with what you say in principle.

 

The bit that almost turned me off from reading the rest of the article was when it said he was a shareholder.

 

I think in terms of a 'tight ship' (which he refers to a couple of times), the club is run well and uses what money it gets wisely. No doubt that Elstone deserves credit there.

 

Where Elstone deserves to take digs is in terms of our commercial deals. As I've pointed out, if you look at the commercial side of the accounts, we have slipped overall. The deals set up are poor and bring in poor revenue compared to others. The official numbers are there and available for all to see, they don't lie.

 

To be honest, after this bumper TV deal, if any club released accounts showing anything less than a profit and/or reduced debt, I'd be a worried fan of that club.

[Newty82]

Tom Cannon thought the Kirby stadium move was a good idea. He is used as a consultant to the board....

 

I have no faith in anything he says.

Aaaaah...see that makes sense. Hardly going to turn the screw is he? Shareholder and consultant. Nah. Not for me.

[Hafnia]

"Cannon was elected a special advisor to the board at the club's AGM in 2007 whilst Kenwright was Chairman."

 

Yep, Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.

 

This is what pisses me off about those in the corridors of power. Self serving propaganda knob heads.

[Hafnia]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/toms-a-sage-who-doesnt-know-652640

[Matt]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/toms-a-sage-who-doesnt-know-652640

pathetic article, expected from the Mirror though.

[Newty82]

"Cannon was elected a special advisor to the board at the club's AGM in 2007 whilst Kenwright was Chairman."

 

Yep, Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.

 

This is what pisses me off about those in the corridors of power. Self serving propaganda knob heads.

Indeed. They sure like to look after themselves.

 

Just reading a book about this sort of thing, 'The Establishment'. About how those in power take more power and wealth from right under our noses. How they protect themselves. Should be quite interesting.

[Hafnia]

pathetic article, expected from the Mirror though.

They aren't lies though. It's an credible piece but written in a critical fashion.

 

If prof cannon is going to make stupid statements then he can expect criticism.

[Cornish Steve]

The distrust of this guy is ridiculous. If we can't trust a professor in this field, who would be putting his academic credibility on the line by brown-nosing, then who can we believe? From my perspective as a businessman, the numbers do look good. You only pay off debt when you're confident about the future.

[marcopaulo]

To be fair this goy is a professor who specialises in football finances and if he says were doing ok I would tend to believe him, unless of cause hes part of some dastardly BK conspiracy

I love your posts

[Newty82]

The distrust of this guy is ridiculous. If we can't trust a professor in this field, who would be putting his academic credibility on the line by brown-nosing, then who can we believe? From my perspective as a businessman, the numbers do look good. You only pay off debt when you're confident about the future.

So from your perspective as a business man, what do you make of the income less TV money and Gate Receipts? Genuine question.

[Matt]

They aren't lies though. It's an credible piece but written in a critical fashion.

 

If prof cannon is going to make stupid statements then he can expect criticism.

i didnt say they were lying, I said it was a pathetic article. It's not even critical, it's like a child wrote it...

[Newty82]

Looking forward to seeing next year's accounts...should be good...extra revenue from UEFA Cup (more so if we continue in it....gate receipts, merchandise, TV Mine, Prize Money). Should see a further increase in turnover. Although we need more commercial activity.

 

The only other thing is the extra TV money. Every club has it. And everyone knows it. So expect prices to increase for players quite sharply.

[Hafnia]

It's not even difficult to cut through the spin. If you have a massive boost in revenue due to non club driven commercial activities. Surely you would normalize the £££ to see how your well paid business brains have performed.

 

In doing this the answer is "must do better as we are still behind our peers"

[Newty82]

It's not even difficult to cut through the spin. If you have a massive boost in revenue due to non club driven commercial activities. Surely you would normalize the £££ to see how your well paid business brains have performed.

 

In doing this the answer is "must do better as we are still behind our peers"

Yeah exactly. You have to see past the TV money.

 

I'd be interested to know why, with higher gate receipts, did catering income drop by £250,000. Also, what 'other commercial activities' are, and why this dropped by £1million???

 

It's not unreasonable to ask. Or to expect better.

 

This article is old, but sums up how I feel. Note the gulf in commercial income of the teams just ahead of us...the gap is huge. I expect similar articles to appear in the days or weeks to come...

 

http://www.espnfc.com/club/everton/368/blog/post/1846154/commercial-performance-still-casts-a-shadow-over-everton

[markjazzbassist]

i think the problem with the commercial income is something you brits might not get. our club has great history, and we are a big club no doubt, but no other country in the world sees it that way. in america its man u, spurs, arsenal, some liverpool and city fans. i tell people i root for everton they look at me like they are a league 1 team they never heard of. i'm sure this has a lot to do with the commercial activities. plus our owner is from liverpool, it's not like he can get outside deals easily. man city, arsenal, man u, etc are all owned by non brits hence their massive commercial deals with companies from their respective countries. who's bill gonna sign up with, liver pools finest auto dealer? scousers heating/ac?

 

the best way to increase this is win europa and get the international acclaim, then people will want their name on our shirt. look at atletico, they have ajerbazian as their sponsor, win the europa a few years back and then again 2 years ago and bang, look at that.

[Newty82]

Problem Mark is that Mr Elstone tied us into a deal with Kitbag until 2019. Kitbag pay us £3 mill a year. Kitbag then have sole rights to sell our kits, merchandise etc. And they look after our shop and online sire. We receive no other money for this. We can't decide where our stuff is sold as it is all Kitbags. So, for example, if Under Armour decide they want to pay us £10mill per year to make our kits...its no good as kitbag get that money.

 

Tell me a leading sports retailer in the USA where you can buy a uk footy shirt? If we wanted to negotiate with that retailer to sell Everton tops, we can't as it all belongs to Kitbag. It's a ball breaking deal. Teams around us are getting bigger and bigger shirt deals year on year while we are left with £3 mill a year until 2019!!!

 

Even the shirt sponsorship with Chang undervalues us. This deal is supposed to raise our profile in the East. That's great. But we can't control the merchandise available or negotiate with any retailers as Kitbag have the sole, international rights to our stuff.

 

I'm sorry, but the extra TV money is a great smokescreen for some serious failings that are going to cost the club a lot of money.

[markjazzbassist]

Problem Mark is that Mr Elstone tied us into a deal with Kitbag until 2019. Kitbag pay us £3 mill a year. Kitbag then have sole rights to sell our kits, merchandise etc. And they look after our shop and online sire. We receive no other money for this. We can't decide where our stuff is sold as it is all Kitbags. So, for example, if Under Armour decide they want to pay us £10mill per year to make our kits...its no good as kitbag get that money.

 

Tell me a leading sports retailer in the USA where you can buy a uk footy shirt? If we wanted to negotiate with that retailer to sell Everton tops, we can't as it all belongs to Kitbag. It's a ball breaking deal. Teams around us are getting bigger and bigger shirt deals year on year while we are left with £3 mill a year until 2019!!!

 

Even the shirt sponsorship with Chang undervalues us. This deal is supposed to raise our profile in the East. That's great. But we can't control the merchandise available or negotiate with any retailers as Kitbag have the sole, international rights to our stuff.

 

I'm sorry, but the extra TV money is a great smokescreen for some serious failings that are going to cost the club a lot of money.

 

agreed, i'm talking mostly about chang. man united got chevrolet and addidas for their kit for a billion dollars (US). chelsea have samsung, arsenal emirates, man city etihad, etc. but instead we get chang, the beer i can drink at the little thai joint down the street for 5 bucks, it's aint terrible, but it's not great either.

 

the kitbag deal seems to me "the easy route" same as chang. instead of elstone doing his job and trying to get better he just thought "well these deals are there so i should just re-accept that way i don't have to do anything".

[Newty82]

 

agreed, i'm talking mostly about chang. man united got chevrolet and addidas for their kit for a billion dollars (US). chelsea have samsung, arsenal emirates, man city etihad, etc. but instead we get chang, the beer i can drink at the little thai joint down the street for 5 bucks, it's aint terrible, but it's not great either.

 

the kitbag deal seems to me "the easy route" same as chang. instead of elstone doing his job and trying to get better he just thought "well these deals are there so i should just re-accept that way i don't have to do anything".

Ai, I get ya.

 

I guess the only way it will get better is if we find ourselves in a position (for example, CL qualification year on year) to turn around to Kitbag and tell them to do one. To sign a 10 year flat deal seems so short sighted and lacking ambition. It smells desperate.

 

As for sticking with Chang...I don't get it at all.

[markjazzbassist]

Ai, I get ya.

 

I guess the only way it will get better is if we find ourselves in a position (for example, CL qualification year on year) to turn around to Kitbag and tell them to do one. To sign a 10 year flat deal seems so short sighted and lacking ambition. It smells desperate.

 

As for sticking with Chang...I don't get it at all.

 

yeah i agree, i think europa we need to hit hard and go far. win it or get close and the rest of europe knows us and we're hot so they want to be on our kits.

 

question is, would elstone have the intelligence to take advantage of all that? i'm not holding my breath.

[MikeO]

Ai, I get ya.

 

I guess the only way it will get better is if we find ourselves in a position (for example, CL qualification year on year) to turn around to Kitbag and tell them to do one. To sign a 10 year flat deal seems so short sighted and lacking ambition. It smells desperate.

 

As for sticking with Chang...I don't get it at all.

 

My guess is that if Apple had come in and offered us £100m a season Elstone would have have taken it.

 

The sad fact is that we don't have the global appeal of the big "brands" so that's not going to happen, I think the reason we stick with Chang is the same reason I (reluctantly) stick with TalkTalk; because it's the best deal available to us.

[Newty82]

 

My guess is that if Apple had come in and offered us £100m a season Elstone would have have taken it.

 

The sad fact is that we don't have the global appeal of the big "brands" so that's not going to happen, I think the reason we stick with Chang is the same reason I (reluctantly) stick with TalkTalk; because it's the best deal available to us.

Yeah, I get that.

 

But I find it hard to believe that teams (other than the usual 'top'5) are getting similar deals to us, in some cases more.

 

The other part of disbelief comes from the original deal supposedly exposing us to Eastern markets, yet we can't take advantage of it due to the kitbag deal. If that makes sense???

 

Anyway, I'll be the first to admit that I am probably starting to go over my own head here!!!

[Cornish Steve]

So from your perspective as a business man, what do you make of the income less TV money and Gate Receipts? Genuine question.

 

With a couple of caveats up front:

• I'm not a finance guy or a senior exec, just a veteran of business with an MBA (for whatever that's worth) and experience defining company strategy
• Like the rest of us, I don't see the complete picture - and probably not even most of it - so it's dangerous to draw too many conclusions

But, I do have several observations and suggestions if I was running the show.

1. Contrary to what most people believe, debt is actually good in business. There is an optimal level, though, which probably explains the pay-off of some debt. I'm also guessing that preparations are being made for a stadium initiative, and the finances must be in good shape for that.
2. Too many are being dismissive of the TV money. It's extra revenue, and it's an important factor, not something to be dismissed. It's no different than landing a huge advertising deal to replace the current mediocre deals. Don't discount it. Using it to pay off debt, and not allowing it to sidetrack us, is wise. Otherwise, we become like a lottery winner that's bankrupt a few years later.
3. Invest in the youth program. Maybe 10% of them will make it to the first team, but we can sell the rest for a profit. View it as a P&L venture.
4. Once the brand is stronger, buy out the Kitbag deal, which is a disgrace. There's a lot of money for the taking in this area.

The single biggest thing, though, is to have a clear business strategy. RIght now, there's a bit of this and a bit of that, but no clear definition of what defines Everton and makes us different. Another way of putting this is that the brand is weak. Focus on a strategy and use that to filter and justify all decisions made by the club.

 

For example, I'd play Tim Howard for all he's worth and pounce on the meme he inspired during the World Cup. Become "America's team" in the Prem. Bring in a couple of other American players, do summer tours, have Roberto continue with ESPN, play the history angle (Americans love that) and the underdog status (they love that too), link up with an MLS team, set up a couple of US-based development centres for youth players, and generally raise the team's profile. Play on the colour blue - and work with Jet Blue, Citibank, IBM ("Big Blue"), Twitter, and other popular US brands that are blue. Link up with the New Orleans Saints and have them "sing the blues." Be creative. That will generate a larger international fan base that will attract the Nike's of the world. And drop Chang, because Asia brings us nothing right now, and flying the team there just exhausts everyone.

 

Of course, this is just one invented strategy, and it won't be everyone's cup of tea. It's almost doesn't matter what the strategy is, as long as we have one!

Edited November 3, 2014 by Cornish Steve

[MC11]

With a couple of caveats up front:

 

• I'm not a finance guy or a senior exec, just a veteran of business with an MBA (for whatever that's worth) and experience defining company strategy
• Like the rest of us, I don't see the complete picture - and probably not even most of it - so it's dangerous to draw too many conclusions

But, I do have several observations and suggestions if I was running the show.

• [*]Contrary to what most people believe, debt is actually good in business. There is an optimal level, though, which probably explains the pay-off of some debt. I'm also guessing that preparations are being made for a stadium initiative, and the finances must be in good shape for that.
• Too many are being dismissive of the TV money. It's extra revenue, and it's an important factor, not something to be dismissed. It's no different than landing a huge advertising deal to replace the current mediocre deals. Don't discount it. Using it to pay off debt, and not allowing it to sidetrack us, is wise. Otherwise, we become like a lottery winner that's bankrupt a few years later.
• Invest in the youth program. Maybe 10% of them will make it to the first team, but we can sell the rest for a profit. View it as a P&L venture.
• Once the brand is stronger, buy out the Kitbag deal, which is a disgrace. There's a lot of money for the taking in this area.

The single biggest thing, though, is to have a clear business strategy. RIght now, there's a bit of this and a bit of that, but no clear definition of what defines Everton and makes us different. Another way of putting this is that the brand is weak. Focus on a strategy and use that to filter and justify all decisions made by the club.

 

For example, I'd play Tim Howard for all he's worth and pounce on the meme he inspired during the World Cup. Become "America's team" in the Prem. Bring in a couple of other American players, do summer tours, have Roberto continue with ESPN, play the history angle (Americans love that) and the underdog status (they love that too), link up with an MLS team, set up a couple of US-based development centres for youth players, and generally raise the team's profile. Play on the colour blue - and work with Jet Blue, Citibank, IBM ("Big Blue"), Twitter, and other popular US brands that are blue. Link up with the New Orleans Saints and have them "sing the blues." Be creative. That will generate a larger international fan base that will attract the Nike's of the world. And drop Chang, because Asia brings us nothing right now, and flying the team there just exhausts everyone.

 

Of course, this is just one invented strategy, and it won't be everyone's cup of tea. It's almost doesn't matter what the strategy is, as long as we have one!

Taking a small snippet there but why is debt good in business? Other than loaning money to buy something that's going to make you more money I can't see how any debt is good? especially in football. For example you could spend a £150m loan on superstars and project champions league football for the next 4 years. But in reality that might not happen so its a high risk. Edited November 3, 2014 by MC11