Longest Thread! for Everton Discussion

[Cornish Steve]

Add to that it's the first time in 9 years we've finished outside the top 10 - NOT FUCKING GOOD ENOUGH.

 

I wouldn't put too much store in that. We finished one point behind Palace because they scored late in their game. In effect, three teams were tied for 10th. More relevant might be that there have been four bunches of teams this year: the leading pack, the chasers, the mid-tables, and the relegation contenders. This season, we've been among the mid-tables. Last year, we were chasers.

 

Edit: kant spill

Edited May 24, 2015 by Cornish Steve

[Romey 1878]

I didn't even bother staying for the lap of appreciation yesterday. First time I've ever done that.

 

I also personally know of 3 people who aren't renewing next season simply because of the awful football. And these are fans that have had season tickets for decades, so have gone during the really bad times.

 

The signs really aren't good. I'm trying desperately to tell myself next season will be different and more like Martinez' first season in charge, but so much of this season has worn me down.

[Makis]

Wow, so it was more entertaining during Smith's time when we had seven or eight defenders on the pitch? Or when the starting lineup looked like

 

Simonsen; Pistone, Stubbs, Weir, Unsworth, Clarke; Gascoigne, Gemmill (76' Blomqvist), Linderoth (46' Alexandersson); Radzinski, Moore (46' Chadwick).

 

(That was the last game Smith was in charge.)

[Paddock]

Wow, so it was more entertaining during Smith's time when we had seven or eight defenders on the pitch? Or when the starting lineup looked like

 

Simonsen; Pistone, Stubbs, Weir, Unsworth, Clarke; Gascoigne, Gemmill (76' Blomqvist), Linderoth (46' Alexandersson); Radzinski, Moore (46' Chadwick).

 

(That was the last game Smith was in charge.)

Smithdidn't inherit a top 6 side or have 35 million handed to him.

 

Why do people keep going on about this. If Martinez had inherited a pile of shite mid to bottom table side then fair enough but he has turned a top 6 team into exactly this in 2 seasons flat!

 

The football is boing , it's just dreadful.

[Matt]

I get that football and performances have been poor this season, but calling for a change because we hit a tough spell is just bizarre. It could well be that Martinez and the team struggle again next season, in which case he'll have proven he's not good enough. But 1 mid table finish and one 5th place finish means he deserves a chance for season 3.

 

He's always talked about a long term project; that is more than 2 years. I'm willing, despite hating his preferred style of play, to be patient with him. Otherwise we will become a club who chops and changes manager every 2 seasons, which is not good for the club.

[Paddock]

I get that football and performances have been poor this season, but calling for a change because we hit a tough spell is just bizarre. It could well be that Martinez and the team struggle again next season, in which case he'll have proven he's not good enough. But 1 mid table finish and one 5th place finish means he deserves a chance for season 3.

 

He's always talked about a long term project; that is more than 2 years. I'm willing, despite hating his preferred style of play, to be patient with him. Otherwise we will become a club who chops and changes manager every 2 seasons, which is not good for the club.

Mate, the football is just mind numbing. If we were playing good football I could accept it, if the manager was acknowledging the problems, I'd think fair enough but there is no signs of any acceptance that there's problems this season.

 

We're getting beaten easily but we played well, we've been rolled over or shut out so many times at home this season it's not good enough

[Matt]

Mate, the football is just mind numbing. If we were playing good football I could accept it, if the manager was acknowledging the problems, I'd think fair enough but there is no signs of any acceptance that there's problems this season.

We're getting beaten easily but we played well, we've been rolled over or shut out so many times at home this season it's not good enough

I've been saying since 2008 that possession football is boring 80% of the game. I hate it. But, here's no doubt that last season we played exciting stuff. Yes, this year has been a disaster, but changing a manager won't change what happened this season, nor the season before. We need stability and sacking Martinez would undo a lot of work made behind the scenes in the last 2 years.

 

No manager is going to come in and change the club from the inside out in 1-2 seasons, even with billions to spend. Change management is far more complicated. The worst thing we can do is throw out someone who brought us (relative) success the season before and get someone with a new vision in. As annoying as Martinez can be, I still think he's the man for the job. I will reassess at Christmas but before then, he gets my backing - and a thesaurus if I can get it to him...

[Makis]

Smithdidn't inherit a top 6 side or have 35 million handed to him.

 

Why do people keep going on about this. If Martinez had inherited a pile of shite mid to bottom table side then fair enough but he has turned a top 6 team into exactly this in 2 seasons flat!

 

The football is boing , it's just dreadful.

First of all, Martinez did not get that money either. He sold Fellaini (was forced to), Jelavic and Anichebe to generate funds.

 

But more importantly what does that have to do with how bad the football is? Did it make things less bad under Smith? He was, after all, initially given a (then) huge transfer kitty when he bought players like Dacourt, Materazzi and Collins. Seriously, your mates think Smith's seven or eight defenders was better?

[Paddock]

First of all, Martinez did not get that money either. He sold Fellaini (was forced to), Jelavic and Anichebe to generate funds.

 

But more importantly what does that have to do with how bad the football is? Did it make things less bad under Smith? He was, after all, initially given a (then) huge transfer kitty when he bought players like Dacourt, Materazzi and Collins. Seriously, your mates think Smith's seven or eight defenders was better?

My mates don't compare him to Smith because it's an entirely different situation. Just because he sold players doesn't mean he never had the money, how his him selling Felliani tantamount to him not spending 35 million.

 

Smith had a struggling team massively on the decline with shit players, Martinez has a side that has consistently finished top 6 for 9 years solid full off full internationals and stars, he smashed our transfer record on a player then plays him in a way that is ineffictive, he has taken a very good side and made it mediocre.

 

You cannot compare Smiths side. Smith played in a way he had to with the shite he had available to him, he didn't have a team with this teams ability at his disposal. You cannot say because Smith played the way he did then it's ok for that pile of shite season we just had to be acceptable. It's like saying "well look at when we were relegated in the 50s, would you sooner that?"

 

Absolutely ridiculous argument. Totally different teams, eras, financial situations and situations.

 

Any team can take a bad season and compare it with a worse one. Fact is, Martinez has massively underperformed as a manager this season and so has his team yet he still wont accept it and has the brass bollocks to come out with with big fat slimy dirty turds pouring out his mouth talking shit about how phenominally perfectly intensily perfect we have been all fucking season.

 

NOT acceptable.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Paddock

[MikeO]

I think we had countless matches over the Moyes era though where we had a similar reaction to yesterday, many "Moyes out" moments particularly after abject capitulation to "bigger" teams when we were beaten before we set foot on the pitch due to the management instilled inferiority complex.

 

Remember many of Mark (Romey's) excellent post match reviews when he was in despair. Players out of position, crap and late subs, favorites played over form players....sounds familiar? But then we were playing hoof-ball which everyone derided, now we're playing keep-ball which everyone is deriding.

 

Fact is our attendances are well up in the last two seasons; I don't see why anyone would stop going now after hanging in there through the Moyes years (forgetting what came before).

[Romey 1878]

I think we had countless matches over the Moyes era though where we had a similar reaction to yesterday, many "Moyes out" moments particularly after abject capitulation to "bigger" teams when we were beaten before we set foot on the pitch due to the management instilled inferiority complex.

 

Remember many of Mark (Romey's) excellent post match reviews when he was in despair. Players out of position, crap and late subs, favorites played over form players....sounds familiar? But then we were playing hoof-ball which everyone derided, now we're playing keep-ball which everyone is deriding.

 

Fact is our attendances are well up in the last two seasons; I don't see why anyone would stop going now after hanging in there through the Moyes years (forgetting what came before).

Maybe we were spoiled by what happened last season? I looked forward to watching us every single week. I knew that even if we lost there was a very good chance we'd have played well and at least threatened to take the win.

 

Now? I still have the hope before games that the Everton of last season will turn up, that I'll be entertained, but I don't look forward to the games. I don't look forward to being taken for a fool by Martinez in his post game interviews after another shit performance. Those post game reviews I used to do? I can't be arsed with them any more. I used to enjoy doing them, even when we'd been hammered; they were therapeutic. Now I just get angry. I want to forget the game has happened as soon as it's finished.

 

That all being said, I wouldn't stop going. I am an Everton fanatic; I live and breathe Everton.

[Sibdane]

If any player isn't motivated to play at Goodison Park in the PREMIER LEAGUE then that player needs to move on. No player on our squad is bigger than the team. I don't care if they don't like Martinez (if that is the case); these guys get paid millions to play a sport for a living for Christ's sake.

 

The lack of effort is what is most annoying to me.

[Makis]

My mates don't compare him to Smith because it's an entirely different situation. Just because he sold players doesn't mean he never had the money, how his him selling Felliani tantamount to him not spending 35 million.

 

Smith had a struggling team massively on the decline with shit players, Martinez has a side that has consistently finished top 6 for 9 years solid full off full internationals and stars, he smashed our transfer record on a player then plays him in a way that is ineffictive, he has taken a very good side and made it mediocre.

 

You cannot compare Smiths side. Smith played in a way he had to with the shite he had available to him, he didn't have a team with this teams ability at his disposal. You cannot say because Smith played the way he did then it's ok for that pile of shite season we just had to be acceptable. It's like saying "well look at when we were relegated in the 50s, would you sooner that?"

 

Absolutely ridiculous argument. Totally different teams, eras, financial situations and situations.

First off all, of course you have to factor net spent. If a team sells their star player to Real Madrid for 100 million and then buy players for 50, will you say the manager spent 50 million and not take the 100 million into account?

 

 

And if you remember, Johnson initially gave Smith transfer money, something Kenwright has never done.

[Paddock]

First off all, of course you have to factor net spent. If a team sells their star player to Real Madrid for 100 million and then buy players for 50, will you say the manager spent 50 million and not take the 100 million into account?

 

 

And if you remember, Johnson initially gave Smith transfer money, something Kenwright has never done.

We pulled uniteds pants down with Felliani, he was given 27 million to replace him he did with Lukaku (love him or hate him) but that's irrelevant anyway. You're bleating on comparing this situation to Walter Smiths reign and if we want to be honest that was a massive faliure as well.

 

Fact is this squad is MUCH better than what Smith had, he was given 35 million but even if by your reckoning we had kept Felliani not bought Lukaku we'd of still had the same team thats finished 4th-7th for 9 years on the bounce.

 

So reming me how 11th place and a negative win-lose ratio, goal difference etc is acceptable? I wouldn't mind if Martinez was honest about it and showed any signs of recognising it's not good enough but he continues down this road of absolute mediocrity blinkered to anything other thsn his "ideals" look at some of his quotes, he would rather lose playing well than win playing shite, he is glad Barkley missed a pen, the players taking the ball off each other for set pieces, him freezing Distin out, refusal to drop his senior players when needed, bringing back Howard when Robles was settling in after Howard has and continued to be shocking all season, his constant "we were perfect" despite us getting twatted... Do I need to go on?

 

The mans a fucking charlatan and a clown to boot. Open your eyes mate, he's taking the piss out of all of us.

[Sibdane]

 

 

Fact is this squad is MUCH better than what Smith had, he was given 35 million but even if by your reckoning we had kept Felliani not bought Lukaku we'd of still had the same team thats finished 4th-7th for 9 years on the bounce.

Playing devil's advocate here and hate to bring him up, but Moyes inherited a championship winning United squad that was consistently in the top 4 every year until he came. His supporters will come to his defense and say that the squad needed a total overhaul a year after winning the League. They also played terrible football under him and had a similar fall in league position as we did this season.

 

Maybe the current squad as a whole peaked last year.

[Paddock]

 

Playing devil's advocate here and hate to bring him up, but Moyes inherited a championship winning United squad that was consistently in the top 4 every year until he came. His supporters will come to his defense and say that the squad needed a total overhaul a year after winning the League. They also played terrible football under him and had a similar fall in league position as we did this season.

 

Maybe the current squad as a whole peaked last year.

Or maybe Moyes never had the dressing room in the first place and that's why. Maybe that's why we're so shite, Martinez may of lost ours although United spending 150 million last season and still only finishing 4th points to the fact that United really were on a massive down turn.

 

Howcan players likeColeman, Baines, Stones, McCarthy, Barkley and Lukaku "peak" Tonka mate? Granted, Osman, Pienaar are getting on but he should have identified it and rectified it.

 

Kone, Mcgeady, Alcaraz? All absolute shite yet he comes out with shite like "Aiden is a special player one of the best wingers I've seen"

 

God fucking help us, honestly, we're going to need a fucking almighty miracle next season we really are.

[Sibdane]

Or maybe Moyes never had the dressing room in the first place and that's why. Maybe that's why we're so shite, Martinez may of lost ours although United spending 150 million last season and still only finishing 4th points to the fact that United really were on a massive down turn.

 

Howcan players likeColeman, Baines, Stones, McCarthy, Barkley and Lukaku "peak" Tonka mate? Granted, Osman, Pienaar are getting on but he should have identified it and rectified it.

 

Kone, Mcgeady, Alcaraz? All absolute shite yet he comes out with shite like "Aiden is a special player one of the best wingers I've seen"

 

God fucking help us, honestly, we're going to need a fucking almighty miracle next season we really are.

"As a whole" the squad peaked. Distin, Ossie, Pienaar, and even Jags were all WAY more influential last year. Baines had an average-at-best season this year and Mirallas was almost non-existent for large parts of the season. Don't foget about Barry. All of these players bar Mirallas are 30+. Don't we have the second oldest squad in the league this year?

 

Moyes possibly did lose the dressing room instantly at United and this could be the case for Martinez now, but it's strange that it would take two seasons for them to start disliking him. It's really all speculation though.

[MikeO]

We pulled uniteds pants down with Felliani, he was given 27 million to replace him he did with Lukaku (love him or hate him) but that's irrelevant anyway. You're bleating on comparing this situation to Walter Smiths reign and if we want to be honest that was a massive faliure as well.

 

Fact is this squad is MUCH better than what Smith had, he was given 35 million but even if by your reckoning we had kept Felliani not bought Lukaku we'd of still had the same team thats finished 4th-7th for 9 years on the bounce.

 

So reming me how 11th place and a negative win-lose ratio, goal difference etc is acceptable? I wouldn't mind if Martinez was honest about it and showed any signs of recognising it's not good enough but he continues down this road of absolute mediocrity blinkered to anything other thsn his "ideals" look at some of his quotes, he would rather lose playing well than win playing shite, he is glad Barkley missed a pen, the players taking the ball off each other for set pieces, him freezing Distin out, refusal to drop his senior players when needed, bringing back Howard when Robles was settling in after Howard has and continued to be shocking all season, his constant "we were perfect" despite us getting twatted... Do I need to go on?

 

The mans a fucking charlatan and a clown to boot. Open your eyes mate, he's taking the piss out of all of us.

 

Not strictly true. Moyes first four full seasons we finished 7th, 17th, 4th & 11th (wonder if people were calling for him to be sacked?).

 

Then we had a run of seven seasons between 5th and 8th.

 

That not nine consecutive seasons fourth to seventh however you add it up.

[pete0]

Smith had a top half team, he lost the plot playing Watson upfront whilst having Joe Max Moore on the bench.

This was Moyes first eleven used
Simonsen; Hibbert, Weir, Stubbs, Pistone; Gemmill, Gravesen, Carsley, Unsworth (75' Blomqvist); Ferguson, Radzinski (46' Moore).

In comparison Fulham who finished 13th had this starting XI:
Van der Sar, Finnan, Melville, Goma (Ouaddou 45), Brevett, Boa Morte (Hayles 45), Legwinski (Goldbaek 78), Collins, Malbranque, Saha, Marlet.

Only the keeper and Saha would have got in our team, we shouldn't have been as close to relegation as Smith took us. Moyes inherited Osman and Rooney the following season and in all honesty that team with any competent manager would have been a top half team.

 

RM wasn't my first choice, but I was happy for the change (Moyes was never going to evolve). I was hoping RM would grow with us, and would be similar to Wenger with his investment in sports science. However, he is more similar to Moyes than I could have imagined; his reluctance to use youth and even worse preferring to round peg favourites, arrogant press conferences, and bull shit after games.

 

I'm more confident we will win a cup under RM, but that's about it. Hoping to see a big change next season, if he carries on with the tippa-tappa he can follow Moyes.

[Paddock]

 

Not strictly true. Moyes first four full seasons we finished 7th, 17th, 4th & 11th (wonder if people were calling for him to be sacked?).

 

Then we had a run of seven seasons between 5th and 8th.

 

That not nine consecutive seasons fourth to seventh however you add it up.

So 9 out of 11 then, it's splitting hairs really isn't it.

[MikeO]

So 9 out of 11 then, it's splitting hairs really isn't it.

 

Not remotely. 11th in his fourth year, supremely lucky fourth in his second, as low as seventeenth, the rest 5th to 8th. That's a long way from nine consecutive 4th to 7th. You just conveniently ignore the 17th and 11th; splitting hairs? Don't think so.

[Makis]

We pulled uniteds pants down with Felliani, he was given 27 million to replace him he did with Lukaku (love him or hate him) but that's irrelevant anyway. You're bleating on comparing this situation to Walter Smiths reign and if we want to be honest that was a massive faliure as well.

 

Fact is this squad is MUCH better than what Smith had, he was given 35 million but even if by your reckoning we had kept Felliani not bought Lukaku we'd of still had the same team thats finished 4th-7th for 9 years on the bounce.

 

So reming me how 11th place and a negative win-lose ratio, goal difference etc is acceptable? I wouldn't mind if Martinez was honest about it and showed any signs of recognising it's not good enough but he continues down this road of absolute mediocrity blinkered to anything other thsn his "ideals" look at some of his quotes, he would rather lose playing well than win playing shite, he is glad Barkley missed a pen, the players taking the ball off each other for set pieces, him freezing Distin out, refusal to drop his senior players when needed, bringing back Howard when Robles was settling in after Howard has and continued to be shocking all season, his constant "we were perfect" despite us getting twatted... Do I need to go on?

 

The mans a fucking charlatan and a clown to boot. Open your eyes mate, he's taking the piss out of all of us.

We actually replaced Fellaini with McCarthy. Lukaku came on loan. Lukaku's buy also required selling Jelavic and Anichebe.

 

The rest of your message is just ranting.

[Paddock]

 

Not remotely. 11th in his fourth year, supremely lucky fourth in his second, as low as seventeenth, the rest 5th to 8th. That's a long way from nine consecutive 4th to 7th. You just conveniently ignore the 17th and 11th; splitting hairs? Don't think so.

So in 11 years he had 3 outside the top 7th one of them being 8th. I've not conveniently missed anything out. He had 11 seasons 3 fell outside the top 7 one by one place he also had a top 4 so went one better, if you want to take it literally you can but it's there and there about a regular top 7 side in his 11 seasons here.

[MikeO]

So in 11 years he had 3 outside the top 7th one of them being 8th. I've not conveniently missed anything out. He had 11 seasons 3 fell outside the top 7 one by one place he also had a top 4 so went one better, if you want to take it literally you can but it's there and there about a regular top 7 side in his 11 seasons here.

 

I took it how you wrote it .

 

If you're going to ignore the early (though not as early as RM) 11th and 17th you also have to ignore the 4th.

 

So then we're talking consecutive 5th to 8th over a period of seven years as opposed to consecutive 4th to 7th over a period of nine years.

 

Not the same thing.

[Paddock]

 

I took it how you wrote it .

 

If you're going to ignore the early (though not as early as RM) 11th and 17th you also have to ignore the 4th.

 

So then we're talking consecutive 5th to 8th over a period of seven years as opposed to consecutive 4th to 7th over a period of nine years.

 

Not the same thing.

Mike, the point I'm making is the side Martinez took over was a REGULAR top 7 time. I don't go looking at stats etc before I post it, I'm talking generally mate, there were the season here and there where we were outside of it but 8 out of 11 we were top 7 once 8th an 11th and 17th that's pretty much a consistant top 7 finish no matter which way I write it and more importantly the last 5 years (again I've not looked) we have been thrre like a permanent fixture.

[Shukes]

Leave Mirralas out of this....MC destroyed him this season.

 

If we can get MC to shut the fuck up for a year...he will be great next season.

[MikeO]

Mike, the point I'm making is the side Martinez took over was a REGULAR top 7 time. I don't go looking at stats etc before I post it, I'm talking generally mate, there were the season here and there where we were outside of it but 8 out of 11 we were top 7 once 8th an 11th and 17th that's pretty much a consistant top 7 finish no matter which way I write it and more importantly the last 5 years (again I've not looked) we have been thrre like a permanent fixture.

 

So when we finished 17th in his second full season were your mates giving up their season tickets? Or when we finished 11th in his fourth? We'd dropped ten places in the first example, and dropped from CL qualification to bottom half in the second. We didn't sack him no matter how awful we were, we backed him and he went on to get us a bit of stability (though no success) and now people are wanting to ditch Martinez after a better start. We've dropped six places but got to the knock-out phase in Europe, winning the "group of death" with a game to spare. Few weeks ago we stuffed ManU 3-0; when we were in trouble on twenty-eight points after a shite Christmas we manned up.

 

You don't give up on a manager, or a club, after a season like that after sticking with them when they've been in last game relegation fights. Makes no sense to me.

[Shukes]

Now is the wrong time to quit on him.

Now is his and our chance to see what Roberto is made of.

This summer WILL tell one way or another.

[c1982]

We can only really compare Martinez to Moyes when he's had say 5 years in charge.

 

I do agree that Martinez inherited a much better squad than Moyes did (because of the fantastic job Moyes did at this club) but we can only judge when Martinez has got his squad in place.

 

I personally think that this seasons failure is more that we weren't equipped to compete in Europe alongside the Prem - quite resemblent of Moyes finishing 11th after our Champs League/UEFA cup 'adventure'.

[MC11]

Not remotely. 11th in his fourth year, supremely lucky fourth in his second, as low as seventeenth, the rest 5th to 8th. That's a long way from nine consecutive 4th to 7th. You just conveniently ignore the 17th and 11th; splitting hairs? Don't think so.

It was the first time in 9 seasons we'd finished outside the top 10. Unless MOTD are lieing. You are conveniently ignoring the fact he took over a top 6 team who'd finished in at least the top 8 consistently.

 

If you think what you've seen this season has been good football and there is hope under this manager I suggest you follow another sport. The writing is on the wall. This is not poor form. It's a complete mess.