Guest rusty747 Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 I hope I am proven to be very wrong but I too am very worried about our defence. Jags and Distin look past their best, short of confidence, not as fit as they should be, and generally not up to it. Of the potential replacements, Stones still isn't quite ready, Alcaraz is a half decent stop gap, Duffy, sadly, doesn't look like he will make the grade, Browning is one for next season and the new lad I admit to not. Knowing much about. I really think BK needs to get his hand down the back of the sofa again and find some decent money for a quality centre back who can command and organise our back four. Didn't Besic play regularly at CB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 I think we may just be over reacting a little! Jags and Distin were both very good in the first 60 mins against Arsenal. Dont also forget it was Jagielka's well read interception that led to Lukaku playing in Naismith for our second goal. At that point Arsenal hadnt had a shot on target and hadnt really threatened to. They let themselves down in the end but it doesnt mean they are now past it. Distin had his best season at the club by far last season with the least defensive fuck ups I have ever seen from him at any club. There is certainly nothing with Baines and Coleman either (albeit Coleman will always have a lapse of concentration in him, because, to put it politely, he isnt the sharpest tool in the box). Jags isnt in the form of his career, I will grant you that. He was hit and miss last season and he has started this season the same. He strikes me as the type of player that makes a mistake and can then make another few more to compound his original error and when its backs to the wall, he doesnt stand up and be counted as well as he should. He had a couple of games last season where I thought he was really going to step up but it kind of fizzled out in the end through injury. When he is on top form however, he is our best defender. In front of the back 4 I do think we have a bit of a problem, especially based on the personnel used in the last 2 games. I have no worries with Barry, Coleman, Pienaar and Naismith along with Mirallas for the most part. I do have concerns about Osman and McGeady though. Osman will try but isnt physically able to do the job anymore IMO and should only be used in a Barkley type role, and I doubt McGeady's commitment to the cause. Sometimes I have seen him get back but not really do the job he was supposed to and others I have seen him not give a toss when he was meant to (Arsenal springs to mind). When you have both in the team and both on the same side of the pitch, you have a huge weakness, especially in an open game. In terms of our pressing game, when we get stuck in and press high up the pitch I truly believe we can beat anyone. When we step off the gas and sit deeper the individual flaws of each player become more apparent and any individual errors have a greater effect. The problem is that its difficult to maintain that level for 90 mins and only a few teams can keep up that intensity. Against Leicester we sat back almost straight away in the second half but at least against Arsenal we kept it up for another 15-20 minutes before falling off the cliff. Interestingly it was straight after the second sub (McGeady for Lukaku) that the majority of Arsenal's chances created came (4 out of 10). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) Fair points, well made Bailey. But what I would give for a ball playing CB who can step out of defence. Hate to mention ex RS but a Mark Wright type player is what we need imho. Who knows, maybe Stones, Browning or Galloway can do the job. Stones is probably the best at bringing the ball out but still too prone to costly lapses for my liking. Edited August 28, 2014 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Fair points, well made Bailey. But what I would give for a ball playing CB who can step out of defence. Hate to mention ex RS but a Mark Wright type player is what we need imho. Who knows, maybe Stones, Browning or Galloway can do the job. That is Stones in a nutshell and its definitely the way we will be looking to play. As I have said before, Stones will be gunning for Jagielka's place if he keeps making these errors especially as the 'extra' games start coming thick and fast shortly with the League Cup and Europa Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 I put it down to not being able to defend properly. Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/roberto-martinez-confident-everton-fc-7692123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Jagielka was really poor again. I've said it from pre-season. When Jagielka was out injured and Stones stepped in we were water tight at the back. Before Jagielja got injured he was poor for about 2 months. It needs sorting. Again also showed that our "expansive" attacking football can be quite easily undone by better teams. To concede 6 goals at home is awful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 We had a defence today? Really? After pre-season I said the defence is gonna cost us this season and that's looking like being a reality. Robbie needs to do something, and fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 I worry about the stamina of Jags and Distin. To have to keep the running up game after game. They were tired by about 70 mins again. So I agree with the cries of needing an extra CB. Because these two will struggle when the games pile up. But we do have the professionalism to work through this spell. And I'm sure it is just a spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Distins stamina would be much better if he wasn't covering for his partner all the time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Distins stamina would be much better if he wasn't covering for his partner all the time... At this moment, true!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroBlue Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Do we need a top quality defensive coach to work alongside Roberto? hate to say it but someone in the David Moyes mould? A bit early to be drawing any conclusions just yet but the idea that last seasons defensive record was a remnant of the Moyes era is looking increasingly plausible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Jagielka was really poor again. I've said it from pre-season. When Jagielka was out injured and Stones stepped in we were water tight at the back. Before Jagielja got injured he was poor for about 2 months. It needs sorting. Again also showed that our "expansive" attacking football can be quite easily undone by better teams. To concede 6 goals at home is awful! I am the first to admit when I'm wrong MC, and we had a discussion on here pre season and you said he should have the balls to drop Jagielka and I agreed that if he warranted dropping then he should have the balls but wasn't entirely sure you were right to want him dropping. Well it looks like you were spot on to be fair to you as he's been fucking awful. He wants dropping and Stones in next game and that's a given now. MC11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Do we need a top quality defensive coach to work alongside Roberto? hate to say it but someone in the David Moyes mould? A bit early to be drawing any conclusions just yet but the idea that last seasons defensive record was a remnant of the Moyes era is looking increasingly plausible. Don't buy that. The whole system changed so if anything the first season should be the hardest; if our clean sheets last season had been down to ignoring Roberto's instructions, dropping deep and hoofing every time we went a goal up you'd have a point, but that's not what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Don't buy that. The whole system changed so if anything the first season should be the hardest; if our clean sheets last season had been down to ignoring Roberto's instructions, dropping deep and hoofing every time we went a goal up you'd have a point, but that's not what happened. Confidence in what you're being asked to do has a lot to do with it mate. Last year nobody expected much, we were in a transitional period and players were just on a high riding the crest of a wave free from the shackles Moyes had on them. This season the expectations are there and are massive plus teams are totally wise to our frailties now. Totally different animal this season to last imo. duncanmckenzieismagic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroBlue Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Don't buy that. The whole system changed so if anything the first season should be the hardest; if our clean sheets last season had been down to ignoring Roberto's instructions, dropping deep and hoofing every time we went a goal up you'd have a point, but that's not what happened. I agree that last season was a transitional one and in theory this season the players should be more comfortable playing in Roberto's system, what concerns me is the number of defensive errors and lapses in concentration we are seeing. I am not for one moment suggesting that last year the players were ignoring Robertos instructions, what I am suggesting is that perhaps the defensive side of the game is being neglected in training under the current regime and this is why we are now starting to see a decline in that area. Martinez has his side playing the best football I have seen at Goodison in a long time and I am certainly not longing for a return to the negative tactics employed by his predecessor, however, I would like to see us retain the defensive solidity we have become accustomed to, and perhaps the way to do that is for Martinez to bring in a strong defensive coach to help him in that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Martinez was disappointed after the game. He said we defended to soft and to concede so many is not natural. We must improve. He ain't turning a blind eye to it, which is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J*A*C*K*E*L*Z Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Im not poonting the finger at them cus i love both of them but mccarthy and barry have looked dead on their arse for the last 20 mins of every game this season and they play a huge role in protecting our back 2. would have liked to of seen either of them swaped for besic on about the 70th min to hive some much needed fresh legs in thay area of the pitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gethinO Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 (edited) Never seen Jagielka play so poor, ever. Looked miles off the pace. Distin was better, but only just. What annoys me is about 4 of their goals today could have been prevented with half decent defending. As club captain, Jags needs to take a long hard look at himself after that performance. From the 1st minute they never looked comfortable. Needs sorting! Edited August 30, 2014 by Geth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Do you think a seasoned defensive coach could help us a bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gy-blues Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Jags could have gifted them four by himself tonight, awful on the first and twice virtually put them clean through himself. Surely should be dropped, but can't see it! Still not even forgiven him for last week and that pathetic header effort before Giroud's goal! Both Giroud and Costa have had him in their pocket last two weeks. Both centre backs have made mistakes from the start of the season and if that's their form I'd give Stones a go, he is also liable for the odd changer due to his age but he also gives us other extra dimensions on the ball......we've been that bad I'd consider Alcaraz too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Jags, hasn't looked the same since his injury last season and had a poor world cup, this really knocked his confidence, and he does not look like getting it back anytime soon. This is really affecting the rest of the team, especially in Center midfield where Barry and McCarthy are having to work twice as hard to protect against Jags obvious shortcomings. To be honest both Baines and Howard have come back short of form and confidence, whether this is due to not having enough time off mentally I don't know, but we need to deal with this. If we had Oviedo fit and had signed Richards then we could have played a defense of Coleman, Richards, Distin, and Oviedo to let Jags and Baines recover. We need to get a CB now, and I would move heaven and earth get Micah Richards if he is over his injury woes. He has pace to burn and is a quality player on his day, who is good with the ball and fit into Martinez style of play. Shawcross is a good defender but just as limited as Jags when it comes to using the ball as Martinez wants, he is DM's answer to the problem. One thing is for sure we need to get a couple of wins and this cant be done with Jags at the back, mentally he is shot and should not be considered for selection. Get 2 wins and we are back on. I have confidence we will win the next 2, we have looked great going forward, and Rom will come good, and one Besic and Atsu have played some games they will add some real quality and depth. I suppose this is just the changing of the guard in defense and it has come a season to early, Martinez and Bill need to act now to facilitate this before our season ends before it begins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 It's worth mentioning that under Moyes we pretty much defended as 11 players. The defence always had everyone in front of them defending, so any frailties they may have had were well covered up. Now there's been a clear shift towards a more attacking game and therefore the defence do not have as many players responsible for covering them. I'm not saying that's the only reason for why we've conceded so many, because Jags is clearly playing like a clown with Distin not being much better, and Coleman seems to have returned to being that naive defender he arrived as, but it's worth thinking about. I've said it loads of times but I don't think our defending was much better last season; I was always on tenterhooks when the opposition came at us, so I'm not altogether surprised with what's happening atm. pete0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 I did see this coming last season also. The amount of chances spawned by opposition last season was stupid. Like they said yesterday, Chelsea had 22 shots on target last season. We had ridden our luck a lot last season just that this season, everything on target has more or less hit the back of the net. I'm guessing here but I can only think of Howard making one save in the Leicester game and one save against Costa yesterday. Everything had passed him. Might be way off but can't think of many more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Jagielkas has always been a tad overrated by Evertonians in my eyes. At times he's brilliant but he has never been a top level centre half he's a branch under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Jagielkas has always been a tad overrated by Evertonians in my eyes. At times he's brilliant but he has never been a top level centre half he's a branch under. I think of the top centre halfs in the league and they either come through the youth team or were signed from a big club. Don't get me wrong, a few poor games isn't going to make me give up on jagielka cause I see him ad a very good defender still but coming from sheff utd with no other big team coming in for him makes me question things sometimes. Don't get me wrong you only think these things when he had some terrible performances and we forget the years of amazing service he has given us. I just feel jagielka is better suited to eleven behind the ball defending a one goal lead. When he has time to express himself he looks shocking and a rabbitt caught in the headlights. This is something stones excels at. Matt and Sibdane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogsy Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 I think we also need to seriously considering replacing dusty, he can be just as switched of as jags and he does shit me up when he starts to pass the ball around the back, plus he's getting on a bit now. Fair play to him, he's been a machine for us, but stones is right sided and could easily replace jags, should we not look more for a left sided centre back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 just feel jagielka is better suited to eleven behind the ball defending a one goal lead. When he has time to express himself he looks shocking and a rabbitt caught in the headlights. This is something stones excels at. this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTStanley1 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Does anyone else think that we should've gone after Martins-Indi and Caulker this transfer window? We could've got them both for less than 15mil and our defence would've been sorted for years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Does anyone else think that we should've gone after Martins-Indi and Caulker this transfer window? We could've got them both for less than 15mil and our defence would've been sorted for years! No duncanmckenzieismagic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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