MC11 Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Barkley, Gerry, Lukaku, Stones, Lennon have all stagnated under Martinez. While Yakubu, Naisy, Billy and Johnson all thrived under Moyes. Barkley & Stones are the main culprits here. Under Moyes, Cahill, Baines, Jags, Lescott, Pienaar, Arteta, Fellaini, Coleman etc all first teamers improved massively under Moyes. First team players! Under Martinez the only player to crack on has been Lukaku and that was always going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 (edited) Yeah. McFadden, Francisco Jr, Saha, Bily, Drenthe, Van der Meyde, Vaughan, Gueye, Vellios, da Silva, Heitinga, Johnson, Beattie, Jacobsen, Castillo, Gosling, Wessels, Wright, Krøldrup, Plessis (off the top of my head). Thanks for naming 11 years worth of everton reserves Edited April 15, 2016 by MC11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalkpie Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Thats a big head. La Cabesa Mas Grande Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Thanks for naming 11 years worth of everton reserves That's a pitiful comeback even for you, two of them broke our transfer record. Can you come back with a list of players that got "better and better" under Moyes? Because that was what you said happened to our team under him. I'll give you Arteta, Pienaar and Lescott as a starting point to help you out (all of whom he sold). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 That's a pitiful comeback even for you, two of them broke our transfer record. Can you come back with a list of players that got "better and better" under Moyes? Because that was what you said happened to our team under him. I'll give you Arteta, Pienaar and Lescott as a starting point to help you out (all of whom he sold). I don't do "comebacks" I was just stating you're list was on the whole reserve players! I've already given a fair list. What does selling them have to do with anything? They all improved into top end players from virtually nothing's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 I don't do "comebacks" I was just stating you're list was on the whole reserve players! I've already given a fair list. What does selling them have to do with anything? They all improved into top end players from virtually nothing's. But if they'd have got "better and better" under DM, as you suggest, they wouldn't have been reserve players! They'd have been be up there challenging for starting places, all of them had first team potential without question. You just don't do comebacks when it's obvious you've been posting with shit in you eyes . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 (edited) Said it before but players tend to stagnate under Martinez. Under Moyes players would get better and better.Beattie, Yakubu, Johnson, Davies, bilyaltdinov, ultimately attacking players. He did great things with defenders. Strikers? He ruined them. I didn't see the above posts. Moyes did well getting already talented players into an environment that they could flourish... arteta, pienaar, baines. Edited April 15, 2016 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 (edited) But if they'd have got "better and better" under DM, as you suggest, they wouldn't have been reserve players! They'd have been be up there challenging for starting places, all of them had first team potential without question. You just don't do comebacks when it's obvious you've been posting with shit in you eyes . Maybe I should have worded it better for you. I do apologise about that. David Moyes took virtually unknown or unwanted players and turned them into top end players. They would improve year on year. Of course he'd need squad fillers (those you list), you can't have a squad of 11 players can you? There is absolutely no players other than Lukaku (who was well known) that has cracked on under Martinez. Barkley is stagnant, Stones has gone backwards. The only one with shit in your eyes here is you. You STILL try to suggest Martinez will turn it around 18 months on. This all on the basis of Kendall in 84. It's ridiculous and laughable Edited April 15, 2016 by MC11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Why do you's take the bait!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Thats a big head. usually when i hear that they're smiling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Why do you's take the bait!!! Oh here he is teachers pet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Maybe I should have worded it better for you. I do apologise about that. David Moyes took virtually unknown or unwanted players and turned them into top end players. They would improve year on year. Of course he'd need squad fillers (those you list), you can't have a squad of 11 players can you? There is absolutely no players other than Lukaku (who was well known) that has cracked on under Martinez. Barkley is stagnate, Stones has gone backwards. How has Stones gone backwards from not playing? How has Barkley got nominated for young player of the season when Moyes dropped him and sent him out on loan? Give me a list of Moyes successes (I omitted Seamus, here I am helping you again) and I'll give you a longer one of his failures (tomorrow, I'm going to bed now). Why do you's take the bait!!! Because it's there Newty mate, same reason people climb Everest . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 How has Stones gone backwards from not playing? How has Barkley got nominated for young player of the season when Moyes dropped him and sent him out on loan? Give me a list of Moyes successes (I omitted Seamus, here I am helping you again) and I'll give you a longer one of his failures (tomorrow, I'm going to bed now). Because it's there Newty mate, same reason people climb Everest . I've given you a list of Moyes successes.....it's on the previous page..... But here you go and for everyone else.... Cahill, Arteta, Piennar, Baines, Lescott, Jags, Coleman, Fellaini. Relatively unknown unwanted players. You could also include Osman & Carsley in that. Players improved immensely under Moyes and it was a rapid successive climb for them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Yeah. McFadden, Francisco Jr, Saha, Bily, Drenthe, Van der Meyde, Vaughan, Gueye, Vellios, da Silva, Heitinga, Johnson, Beattie, Jacobsen, Castillo, Gosling, Wessels, Wright, Krøldrup, Plessis (off the top of my head). I think what Moyes was rally good at was taking players rated highly at a lower level and making them shine at a higher level by doing basic things really well. They knew they'd get a chance with him. He did that with a few players...Jags, Baines, Cahill, Lescott, Pienaar, Arteta are probably the best examples but the ultimate example has to be Coleman. Where Moyes seemed to struggle was with established players who he had to pay more of a fee for...I think only Fellaini really did better under Moyes as an established player (definately not an unwanted/unknown player, especially at £15million!!!). But there are plenty who seemed to struggle. Haf hits it quite accurately....the attacking players seemed to struggle. I've always thought that about Moyes. With Martinez, he's maybe trying to get players to do more than their ability allows and not enough of the basic stuff. Where attacking players do better with Martinez, defensive players are struggling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Maybe I should have worded it better for you. I do apologise about that. David Moyes took virtually unknown or unwanted players and turned them into top end players. They would improve year on year. Of course he'd need squad fillers (those you list), you can't have a squad of 11 players can you? There is absolutely no players other than Lukaku (who was well known) that has cracked on under Martinez. Barkley is stagnant, Stones has gone backwards. The only one with shit in your eyes here is you. You STILL try to suggest Martinez will turn it around 18 months on. This all on the basis of Kendall in 84. It's ridiculous and laughable Missed the late edit, can you show me where I've suggested that Roberto will turn it around on the basis of '84. I haven't and it's ridiculous and laughable to suggest I have. All I've said was that at the beginning of '84, when we'd scored eleven goals in twenty-one games and were 16th 99% of the fanbase wanted Kendall sacked, you'd have been at the front of the queue. That's a fact. Now he's an Everton legend as manager as well as player. Not ever said that Rob will achieve the same so you're just making stuff up. I've given you a list of Moyes successes.....it's on the previous page..... But here you go and for everyone else.... Cahill, Arteta, Piennar, Baines, Lescott, Jags, Coleman, Fellaini. Relatively unknown unwanted players. You could also include Osman & Carsley in that. Players improved immensely under Moyes and it was a rapid successive climb for them all. Can't see it, and I can still give you a far longer list of failures (already have). He didn't buy players thinking, "He'll be great in the reserves". He bought them thinking they'd make the first team, certainly the ones he spent multi-millions on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Missed the late edit, can you show me where I've suggested that Roberto will turn it around on the basis of '84. I haven't and it's ridiculous and laughable to suggest I have. All I've said was that at the beginning of '84, when we'd scored eleven goals in twenty-one games and were 16th 99% of the fanbase wanted Kendall sacked, you'd have been at the front of the queue. That's a fact. Now he's an Everton legend as manager as well as player. Not ever said that Rob will achieve the same so you're just making stuff up. Can't see it, and I can still give you a far longer list of failures (already have). He didn't buy players thinking, "He'll be great in the reserves". He bought them thinking they'd make the first team, certainly the ones he spent multi-millions on. So why are you mentioning it repeatedly if you don't think Martinez can do it? I don't see it any other way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 I'd give no credit to Moyes for Coleman, he never trusted youngsters in defense. He hung him out to dry against Benfica, then injuries give him a chance at rw, but once he was found out Moyes kept him out of position any way. If it wasn't for a flurry of injuries to seniors Coleman wouldn't have got his chance at right back either and would have left through the back door like Mustafi and Duffy. Even Baines needed injuries to get a chance, Lescott was favoured over him. I'd also blame Moyes bully like intimidation for ruining Rodwell and Gosling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 I'd give no credit to Moyes for Coleman, he never trusted youngsters in defense. He hung him out to dry against Benfica, then injuries give him a chance at rw, but once he was found out Moyes kept him out of position any way. If it wasn't for a flurry of injuries to seniors Coleman wouldn't have got his chance at right back either and would have left through the back door like Mustafi and Duffy. Even Baines needed injuries to get a chance, Lescott was favoured over him. I'd also blame Moyes bully like intimidation for ruining Rodwell and Gosling. He'll always get the credit though...because he found him! Or, at least the he was found in his era. One of the best finds in modern football, value wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 I believe all the Martinez negativity will ultimately cost a place in the FA cup final. Shame, but it will rub off on the players, staff and manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 I believe all the Martinez negativity will ultimately cost a place in the FA cup final. Shame, but it will rub off on the players, staff and manager. I don't and it would be the poorest and easiest excuse imaginable if we fail to beat United We've been poor for the majority of the season and the buck stops with Martinez admittedly the players also to an extent but his reluctance to accept his shortfalls will and have been the catalyst If any of the above comes out of his mouth if we did lose I'll have a meltdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 I believe all the Martinez negativity will ultimately cost a place in the FA cup final. Shame, but it will rub off on the players, staff and manager.I agree , al the negativity has drained the confidence out of the players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 I just want to see am honest attempt at getting through. Win, lose, draw the effort means more. efc1111 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 So why are you mentioning it repeatedly if you don't think Martinez can do it? I don't see it any other way Then you should read what I say... I'm not saying Bob is going to turn it round.... I'm not committed to the manager, I'm committed to Everton... Not saying Roberto will do a Kendall... I'm just pointing out that the majority view isn't always the right one. If the majority had had their way back then our history would have been different (it might have been better!). ManU were a game from sacking SAF ffs. Pressie for you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 I don't and it would be the poorest and easiest excuse imaginable if we fail to beat United We've been poor for the majority of the season and the buck stops with Martinez admittedly the players also to an extent but his reluctance to accept his shortfalls will and have been the catalyst If any of the above comes out of his mouth if we did lose I'll have a meltdown All I'm saying is positivity breeds positivity and as supporters then that is what we should do. Leave all the Martinez out until our season is over (Eg. Out of the cup). I truly believe if we don't do it the fans (sorry some fans) will have contributed to our downfall. Elston Gunnn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 (edited) All I'm saying is positivity breeds positivity and as supporters then that is what we should do. Leave all the Martinez out until our season is over (Eg. Out of the cup). I truly believe if we don't do it the fans (sorry some fans) will have contributed to our downfall. No way no how. The fans don't play the game or manage it they just spectate. You are a Martinez or die guy and it shows with this idiotic posts. The fans have nothing to do with it. The shit on the field is all that matters. When fans breach Fifa and the players play to an empty stadium who do you blame then? The stadium? Birds in the air? The turf? Edited April 16, 2016 by markjazzbassist MikeO and barryj 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 I agree with BarryJ. Fans have a huge influence on things in some respects. See at Anfield the other night...yes, let's be the devil and mention them...when the shite were 2 down inside 10 minutes...do you think the fans played a part in that comeback? Or did they just spectate? From what I remember, even at 2 down, the chants kept coming, the flags kept waving...the ecouragement continued. Fans can have a huge influence both positive and negative. (Sorry for using that example...feel a bit dirty now!) barryj 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalkpie Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 I agree , al the negativity has drained the confidence out of the players Did it make them lazy too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 (edited) No way no how. The fans don't play the game or manage it they just spectate. You are a Martinez or die guy and it shows with this idiotic posts. The fans have nothing to do with it. The shit on the field is all that matters. When fans breach Fifa and the players play to an empty stadium who do you blame then? The stadium? Birds in the air? The turf? Idiotic posts? You obviously are completely deranged or naive if you don't think the opinions, thoughts or feelings of the fans have any impact on the players. Idiotic to think confidence breeds confidence? Sigh, This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Im not a Martinez or die fan I just want Everton to win things and couldn't care less who's in charge as long as we win. My opinion (that I'm entitled to) is that it's crazy that some fans actually want us to lose the semi in order to get Martinez out. Edited April 16, 2016 by barryj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 When the manager blames the fans it's no wonder some fans do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 When the manager blames the fans it's no wonder some fans do the same. No one's blaming fans. Only stating that they do make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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