Chach Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 I've stuck by Martinez against better judgement. He's an absolute tit of a man who instead of addressing the 10% failing him is using that 10% failing him as an opportunity to make a point. I used an analogy to describe David Moyes a while ago. Something like "he would be given £10k to spend in a casino, all night he would be on the 50p table and walk out with £10k in his pocket. He wouldn't take any gambles and have fun trying to win something" To describe Martinez in this way would be.... he gets to the casino. Gets given £20k with the aim of doubling his money. 15 minutes before the end of the night he is stood there with £60k.... "cash in roberto, job done mate. You've trebled the bosses money".... Bad move, you've told him to use common sense... defiance kicks in the catalans very being. 10k down on black, lost. 10k down on black, lost. He sticks to black and leaves the club empty handed.... The man gambles against common sense in order to make himself look good. He's gambling with Everton. I've supported him for the fact that I believe he can be a great manager, but like most bad gamblers - he allows his ego to override common sense. I see it less as stubborn and defiant, more as extreme patience and belief in what he's doing, but when he decides something is not working he's pretty ruthless. He's 42 and he is still learning but he'll win things throughout his career whether with us or someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 Not right now because they lack experience but why further down the line, if they can provee themselves down the leagues the way Kendall did, the way Royale did? Why are we looking at Spaniards and Germans as the be all and end all? It's the same attitude about players that has taken over the Premier League era - they're foreign, therefore they must be better. It's become a default position and that is a big problem because it isn't necessarily true. There is huge ability, knowledge and passion for football in this country, in the north west, in Liverpool, at our club and I think it is being wasted. Just saying. Because we're talking about now and not down the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 Because we're talking about now and not down the line? I'd say from this forum there is a lot of confusion about who/what we want at the moment. Results under Martinez are not good enough that's for sure, but beyond that... it all seems pie in the sky to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 Who is the last Englishman to win the title? Who is the last great English manager? It's not a lack of managers, England just doesn't seem to be able to produce great managers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 Who is the last Englishman to win the title? Who is the last great English manager? It's not a lack of managers, England just doesn't seem to be able to produce great managers. Of the 8 managers who have won the Premier league, a Scotsman won half of them... not exactly 'foreign'. My point is mainly in responsr to the Mourinho shouts - it is short term thinking in the extreme, plus Moshiri is no Abromovich or Abu Dhabai royal family, we're not going to be the next City or Chelsea. We should be looking at building a dynasty at this club, and finding a passionate, driven leader who wants to commit to this club long term. All I'm saying is people are quoting names from Holland, Spain, Germany, who have had some success in those leagues, but does that mean they are qualified to turn Everton FC into a team competing for the Premier League? And while managers who have had some success in those leagues get talked up, those who have decent Premier League records get rubbished. Makes no sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 Of the 8 managers who have won the Premier league, a Scotsman won half of them... not exactly 'foreign'. My point is mainly in responsr to the Mourinho shouts - it is short term thinking in the extreme, plus Moshiri is no Abromovich or Abu Dhabai royal family, we're not going to be the next City or Chelsea. We should be looking at building a dynasty at this club, and finding a passionate, driven leader who wants to commit to this club long term. All I'm saying is people are quoting names from Holland, Spain, Germany, who have had some success in those leagues, but does that mean they are qualified to turn Everton FC into a team competing for the Premier League? And while managers who have had some success in those leagues get talked up, those who have decent Premier League records get rubbished. Makes no sense to me. Who would you suggest then? I don't mean to sound patronising Nogs but your saying it makes no sense but neither do your posts when you read what you say in one to the other People have suggested managers who are either very successful or are doing well or have done with their current or previous clubs and potentially have what it takes to do well over here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 Ok, which British PL managers do you consider as good as, say, Emery? You have a choice of Howe, Dyche, Pardew, Bruce, Neil, Hughes, Allardyce and Pulis. I'll throw McLaren into the mix as well. Emery has basically had to sell his best players every year, yet he has won the Europa League back-to-back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 I'm playing devil's advocate... de Boer wins 4 Dutch league titles? Well that's just par for the course at Ajax. Emery has won two Europa League titles? Steve McClaren got Middlesborough to a Europa League final and he is widely regarded as a clown. I'd consider Favre's achievements with Hertha Berlin and then Monchengladbach more inpressive, turning around perennial under achievers and a dormant giant. But maybe Vanhaezebrouck at Gent illustrates my point best - a nothing manager who, at the right club at the right time, has achieved something remarkable. Out of British managers, Hughes and Pardew deserve much more respect than they are given. Howe and Dyche have also done fantastic jobs just getting their clubs into the Premier League, so why not get a chance with a team aiming for the top? Honestly... I don't know who I'd want to replace Martinez, it will be such a huge decision in the history of our club. I just think it is too easy to list European managers as a benchmark without considering why they have succeeded where they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 I don't want Hughes or Pardew anywhere near our club. dlblue and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Funny how Martinez is always considered "Spanish" when he's spent half his life in the UK and almost his entire playing career and all of his managerial career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Funny how Martinez is always considered "Spanish" when he's spent half his life in the UK and almost his entire playing career and all of his managerial career. And his wife is Scottish and his daughter a British citizen. Chach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Nogs is just being ridiculous now, comparing McClaren with Emery. Emery has won it twice plus with a negative transfer budget still has Seville up with the big boys in Spain. Hughes and Pardew have bern decent but Moyes was way better and not many would take him either any more. They are a good choice if you want to keep not winning something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Nogs is just being ridiculous now, comparing McClaren with Emery. Emery has won it twice plus with a negative transfer budget still has Seville up with the big boys in Spain. Hughes and Pardew have bern decent but Moyes was way better and not many would take him either any more. They are a good choice if you want to keep not winning something. Why is it ridiculous to credit managers for their achievements? McClaren's problem is he has not followed it up in the past 5 years. Anyway this is straying off topic now. But a final point - not so long ago Pepe Mel and Felix Magath were being touted as the hottest managerial property in Europe. Look how they fared in the Premier League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeghead1 Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 I'm not Martinez's biggest fan but at least yesterday he changed his mind and didn't bring Delboy on after Lukaku scored. He also brought on Stones for a winger to shore up the defence. Hopefully the penny is finally dropping. If he can start to see games out do the time wasting which he obviously hates then I see no reason to get rid because going forward it's like being back in 1985 again!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Why is it ridiculous to credit managers for their achievements? McClaren's problem is he has not followed it up in the past 5 years. Anyway this is straying off topic now. But a final point - not so long ago Pepe Mel and Felix Magath were being touted as the hottest managerial property in Europe. Look how they fared in the Premier League. That's exactly what people have done when mentioning potential replacements list their achievements yet you denounce it then praise the likes of Hughes and Pardew who have achieved practically nothing... All very contradicting when you read what you post back I don't think I've ever seen or heard either Pepe or Magath hailed as potentially top managers, there's no shortage of hailed to failed British managers aswel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Why is it ridiculous to credit managers for their achievements? McClaren's problem is he has not followed it up in the past 5 years. Anyway this is straying off topic now. But a final point - not so long ago Pepe Mel and Felix Magath were being touted as the hottest managerial property in Europe. Look how they fared in the Premier League. Well, McClaren has achieved more than most current British managers, so if he's a clown what does it make the rest? Who were touting Mel as the hottest managerial property? He was sacked by Rayo and took Betis to the dizzying heights of seventh in La Liga. Whoopeedoo. Magath may have been hot property - in the 90s. When he took over at Fulham he was already 61. No spring chicken. Mel was 51 so not exactly a prospect either. But heck, I'd be really interested to know how you judge managers. Obviously trophies have nothing to do with it, so Guardiola, Mourinho et al are no better than Mark Hughes and Alan f*cking Pardew? This is how I understand your logic, since you took two foreign managers who didn't succeed in the Premier League, used them to judge all of the foreign managers (otherwise, why bring them up?) and tell us Mark Hughes and Alan f*cking Pardew are underrated. Neither have done f*ck all while someone like Emery has won trophies. Hughes had a huge transfer kitty while Emery has been forced to sell his best players every both at Valencia and Seville and still he manages to win trophies and finished at the top end of the table. Alan f*cking Pardew's team sits in the 15th place at the moment and the pinnacle of his managerial career is winning the Football League Trophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 That's exactly what people have done when mentioning potential replacements list their achievements yet you denounce it then praise the likes of Hughes and Pardew who have achieved practically nothing... All very contradicting when you read what you post back I don't think I've ever seen or heard either Pepe or Magath hailed as potentially top managers, there's no shortage of hailed to failed British managers aswel People have short memories. Mel and Magath were widely feted before they came to England. My original point was about the possibility of recruiting from within, developing a Ferguson or an Unsworth because they understand the club inside out. It's taking a punt, yes, but so is recruiting a manager who has only had success in Spain - Emery failed at Spartak Moscow, a much easier league than the Premier League. Bar a dominant top two or three, the Spanish, German and Dutch leagues are very open, lots of teams have opportunities to win cups and get into Europe. In England it is 5, 6, 7 clubs claiming rights to be top dog, it is intensely competitive and success has to be judged relative to that. To reiterate again - Emery's success at Sevilla has to be admired, yes, but don't just look at the Europa wins, he has not done it outside Spain. De Boer might as well have won four league titles with Celtic - I think he is potentially a very good manager, but let's not pretend he's proven. We're talking about taking a punt on the names being bandied around, and I just happen to think in that case there is a wider pool of managers worth considering taking a punt on. For the record, Pardew no, because he can't finish the job. But Hughes, yes, definitely worth considering. With an Unsworth, Stubbs or Ferguson as number 2, see how they progress given greater responsibility... I'll await the volley of abuse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Oh and Makis... there is a long, long list of foriegn mangers who have come to England and done fuck all. Villas Boas? Jol? But fine, you've got a hard on for Emery, let's not debate it any more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Sorry Nogs I'm not having a pop mate I just find your recent posts abit confusing I know what your getting at mind but we want to push on and become a regular top four side (if the investment pans out how we all hope) and I very much doubt we would ever do so with the likes of Ferguson and co in charge They need to earn the right to manage a top club just look at Neville fantastic pundit who when you listen to you think this guy could do well as a manager/coach he speaks sense and see's what the general fan does yet he's having a torid time in Spain We need a well regarded and respected manager who has player pulling power and knows and has won things but that's just my two cents I would never like to see a number two or coach appointmed as manager its very rarely ever worked out well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Oh and Makis... there is a long, long list of foriegn mangers who have come to England and done fuck all. Villas Boas? Jol? But fine, you've got a hard on for Emery, let's not debate it any more... There is an even longer list of British managers who have done fuck all. Last season Brendan Rodgers was the highest positioned British manager in the Premier League in 6th place. Mourinho, Wenger, Pochettino, etc. are examples of foreigners who have done well. Apart from Emery, there are other interesting examples, like Diego Simeone, Rudi Garcia, Jocelyn Gourvennec, Dieter Hecking and Jorge Jesus who are miles ahead tactically to any British managers. Who'se the last succesful manager who was appointed from within? And I see you failed to list Pardew's achievements... how about Hughes's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kant Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Why is it ridiculous to credit managers for their achievements? McClaren's problem is he has not followed it up in the past 5 years. Anyway this is straying off topic now. But a final point - not so long ago Pepe Mel and Felix Magath were being touted as the hottest managerial property in Europe. Look how they fared in the Premier League. Pepe Mel has never been the hottest managerial property anywhere. He got promoted with Betis, the 2nd team of the city of Seville and the 8th historically in titles, then he always gets them to play well but at some point the team implodes and he gets the sack. I was shocked to hear that he signed for WBA, he barely spoke English and he has no record of achievement. Quique Sanchez Flores has some degree of success, Benitez was very successful, but not Pepe Mel. Even Juande Ramos had some success, although it is important to say that in Spain the manager is a Head Coach, and there is always a Spoting / Football director that signs the players. They work with what they have most of the times. For example: Simeone does not sign players, neither did Guardiola or does Luis Enrique. They may suggest but it will be another person deciding and negotiating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jofanon Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Klinnsman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Klinnsman As a USA fan I would not want him near Everton. He's great with the youngsters but has little to no tactical nous. Unless he brought jogi low or similar to do tactics he's not fit for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I agree. I don't want Klinsmann as USA manager even now. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I agree. I don't want Klinsmann as USA manager even now. Lol me neither. They should have let him go after the last World Cup, I think that was the best they did, they are moving backwards now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Low would be a great one, world cup winner would be perfect for a team wanting to progress. Matt and markjazzbassist 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vranny Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Low would be a great one, world cup winner would be perfect for a team wanting to progress. If he's after a move to club football after the EUROs I can see him slotting in for Guardiola at Bayern. Feels like one of those "stars aligning" moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Hasn't Ancelotti already agreed to take over at Bayern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Low won't be at Bayern that's Ancelotti's gig as Makis says, Low is being touted as Wenger's replacement and they'd be a very good fit to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Low won't be at Bayern that's Ancelotti's gig as Makis says, Low is being touted as Wenger's replacement and they'd be a very good fit to be honest i can't see the likes arsenal playing a high intensity fast paced more direct style of football. they are the epidomy of english tiki taka for me. Low would shed a lot of those players as well, they aren't a physical team. Bit like Klopp with Liverpool, the current style and his style are drastically different and players as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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