MikeO Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 Interesting point this (from the same person who @Chachlinked)... "The referendum was always advisory, not legally binding. That meant that even though the Electoral Commission found evidence of tampering at the criminal level of being beyond any reasonable doubt, the referendum could stand. Had the thing carried legal weight, the courts would have cancelled it and ordered another." Chach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 2 hours ago, MikeO said: Interesting point this (from the same person who @Chachlinked)... "The referendum was always advisory, not legally binding. That meant that even though the Electoral Commission found evidence of tampering at the criminal level of being beyond any reasonable doubt, the referendum could stand. Had the thing carried legal weight, the courts would have cancelled it and ordered another." Why did it not carry legal weight I don't understand I'm missing the point which isn'tt unusual I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Palfy said: Why did it not carry legal weight I don't understand I'm missing the point which isn'ttt unusual I know. Because it was only ever glorified opinion poll to serve as a political stunt for the Tory’s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2019/01/25/in-one-interview-question-owen-jones-accidentally-humiliates-the-entire-british-media/?fbclid=IwAR0oqP9YycKIr6X6Axc9PvvVfaF0vdz59yVMYEeSD10p28HajgVh6O7JmWg MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 26 minutes ago, Palfy said: Why did it not carry legal weight I don't understand I'm missing the point which isn'ttt unusual I know. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 mike i do wonder if the politicians know that, surely they can just call it a day and repeal that article that gets them out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, MikeO said: So technically the government can still say to the voters thanks for your vote, we have tried to implement your decision but it would harm the country immeasurably, so we've taken the decision to remain for the stability of the country and everyone in it. markjazzbassist and pete0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 However the referendum was sold to people on the basis that the result would be carried out and that it would be a generational decision. Furthermore, since the referendum a general election has been held where the two main parties campaigned to leave the EU. The other issue is that any future referendum on EU membership will still not have a clearly defined definition of what "leave" means. If leave won a second vote, and as an example May's deal happened to be on the ballot paper, that doesnt actually determine very much at all about the future european relationship so would we then have another x month / years debating the whole bloody thing only to require another referendum. The bottom line is that the govt asked the people what they wanted. They answered and then it is down to the politicians to see that through. The politicians who want a second vote either are either inadequate at their jobs as they cant see through the job they are paid to do, or they believe that the decision of the people was wrong but they are collectively too afraid to bring the case themselves that they hope a 2nd referendum will sort it out for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 18 minutes ago, Bailey said: The bottom line is that the govt asked the people what they wanted. They answered and then it is down to the politicians to see that through. But they asked a question that people had no idea what the consequences of the answer would be. It's like asking me if I'l like a Ferrari or a Ford Focus; I'd plainly opt for the first but then when presented with the bill and an insurance quote I might have a rethink. Obviously that's taking the argument to an extreme but asking people unqualified to make such a decision (not picking on anyone there, I include myself in that group) and then sticking blindly to it is madness. Are MP's astute enough to make a decision? Debatable but they get voted in as our representatives to make decisions on our behalf as they "appear" to know more about this stuff. It's their job after all. The majority of them want to stay in so do we go with the largely uninformed (and lied to) Joe Public or do we go with the "informed" people who govern? At the moment we're just doing "Charge of the Light Brigade" style policy. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, Bailey said: The bottom line is that the govt asked the people what they wanted. They answered and then it is down to the politicians to see that through. The politicians who want a second vote either are either inadequate at their jobs as they cant see through the job they are paid to do, or they believe that the decision of the people was wrong but they are collectively too afraid to bring the case themselves that they hope a 2nd referendum will sort it out for them. The majority of the public who voted leave did so on a lie about the EU costing us a fortune and that money would be pumped into the NHS. They had no actual basis to go off other than propaganda. The leave option was never clearly explained. To simplify Mike's example, given a choice of a red passport or blue passport most of us would pick blue. If you're then told picking red protects your health and human rights whereas picking blue means you or people you know may lose their jobs most would then pick red. The public weren't told this, the consequences weren't clearly put to the public largely thanks to the the loud mouth brexit politicians (who are no where to be seen now the shit has hit the fan) and a self serving media. Given most people now have an awareness of the consequences surely it would be best for all to have another vote or better yet treat it as advisory only. Madness to fuck over the whole country based on lies and try and call a minor margin the will of the people. MikeO, Palfy, nyblue23 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said: mike i do wonder if the politicians know that, surely they can just call it a day and repeal that article that gets them out? If Mike knows and the politicians don't then make Mike PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 2 hours ago, MikeO said: But they asked a question that people had no idea what the consequences of the answer would be. It's like asking me if I'l like a Ferrari or a Ford Focus; I'd plainly opt for the first but then when presented with the bill and an insurance quote I might have a rethink. Obviously that's taking the argument to an extreme but asking people unqualified to make such a decision (not picking on anyone there, I include myself in that group) and then sticking blindly to it is madness. Are MP's astute enough to make a decision? Debatable but they get voted in as our representatives to make decisions on our behalf as they "appear" to know more about this stuff. It's their job after all. The majority of them want to stay in so do we go with the largely uninformed (and lied to) Joe Public or do we go with the "informed" people who govern? At the moment we're just doing "Charge of the Light Brigade" style policy. Mike, Remainers had no idea of what the consequences of remaining would be. Go into Youtube and Google Farage v Clegg referendum debate. Farage raises the EU Army issue, Clegg says it is a fantasy. Clegg almost loses his cool he is so adamant that there will not be an EU Army. It is cringeworthy. Now Clegg, let us not forget, was DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. He was either 'Lying' or he was 'clueless'. Now I think Clegg is an honest guy but that leaves only the fact that he was clueless. The Deputy Prime Minister of Britain had no idea what was going on behind closed doors in Brussels. Neither did anyone else. Mike, did you get a vote on it? It is now being openly discussed by senior EU officials. This is how the EU operates, behind closed doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, johnh said: Mike, Remainers had no idea of what the consequences of remaining would be. Go into Youtube and Google Farage v Clegg referendum debate. Farage raises the EU Army issue, Clegg says it is a fantasy. Clegg almost loses his cool he is so adamant that there will not be an EU Army. It is cringeworthy. Now Clegg, let us not forget, was DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. He was either 'Lying' or he was 'clueless'. Now I think Clegg is an honest guy but that leaves only the fact that he was clueless. The Deputy Prime Minister of Britain had no idea what was going on behind closed doors in Brussels. Neither did anyone else. Mike, did you get a vote on it? It is now being openly discussed by senior EU officials. This is how the EU operates, behind closed doors. There's not going to be a Brexit John, you lost get over it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 2 hours ago, johnh said: Mike, Remainers had no idea of what the consequences of remaining would be. Go into Youtube and Google Farage v Clegg referendum debate. Farage raises the EU Army issue, Clegg says it is a fantasy. Clegg almost loses his cool he is so adamant that there will not be an EU Army. It is cringeworthy. Now Clegg, let us not forget, was DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. He was either 'Lying' or he was 'clueless'. Now I think Clegg is an honest guy but that leaves only the fact that he was clueless. The Deputy Prime Minister of Britain had no idea what was going on behind closed doors in Brussels. Neither did anyone else. Mike, did you get a vote on it? It is now being openly discussed by senior EU officials. This is how the EU operates, behind closed doors. All irrelevant John (for one thing I'm not going to watch Farage at any price and if you're invoking him you're really scraping the barrel). Did I get a vote on what? I'm not quite clear, I got a vote in a general election (and the EU elections) to put my representative forward to make decisions for me in their respective bodies along with the rest of my fellow voters, that's how our democracy works isn'ttt it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 18 hours ago, MikeO said: But they asked a question that people had no idea what the consequences of the answer would be. It's like asking me if I'l like a Ferrari or a Ford Focus; I'd plainly opt for the first but then when presented with the bill and an insurance quote I might have a rethink. Obviously that's taking the argument to an extreme but asking people unqualified to make such a decision (not picking on anyone there, I include myself in that group) and then sticking blindly to it is madness. Are MP's astute enough to make a decision? Debatable but they get voted in as our representatives to make decisions on our behalf as they "appear" to know more about this stuff. It's their job after all. The majority of them want to stay in so do we go with the largely uninformed (and lied to) Joe Public or do we go with the "informed" people who govern? At the moment we're just doing "Charge of the Light Brigade" style policy. But they never will know what the consequences will be due to the nature of the question. I would say it is more like asking do you want to be self employed or employed. Self employed you get a lot more opportunity to chart your own path but along with that comes a lot more risk and a lot more unknowns, most of which that with all the planning in the world, you wont anticipate. You can stay employed, have a relative amount of choice and be much more secure and stable. Whilst you know what you are getting, you never know what is going on behind the scenes and whether one day you will be made redundant. I agree that asking the question in the first place was naive at best but its happened and that cannot be changed. They asked the question, they said it was a lifetime decision and it would count. People then turned out in record numbers to vote upon the issue. Where does this stop? Do we get 2 years after a general election and decide they aren't what we want anymore and have another election? What happens is another vote is given and the result is the same? Listening to the politicians it is clear that many are not informed whatsoever and that hasn't changed since the build up to the vote itself. I don't think you can clearly state that the majority do want to remain, albeit I think you are probably right. The majority decided to represent parties who campaigned to exit the EU, rather than as independents. The other problem I see is that you have 3 sets of politicians. There are probably the majority on either side who have made up their mind and aren't for changing. The next largest group are the ones who take the path of least resistance and then the final group, who are probably the smallest, are those MP's that are actually listening to each other and trying to work with each other and achieve something. 17 hours ago, pete0 said: The majority of the public who voted leave did so on a lie about the EU costing us a fortune and that money would be pumped into the NHS. They had no actual basis to go off other than propaganda. The leave option was never clearly explained. To simplify Mike's example, given a choice of a red passport or blue passport most of us would pick blue. If you're then told picking red protects your health and human rights whereas picking blue means you or people you know may lose their jobs most would then pick red. The public weren't told this, the consequences weren't clearly put to the public largely thanks to the the loud mouth brexit politicians (who are no where to be seen now the shit has hit the fan) and a self serving media. Given most people now have an awareness of the consequences surely it would be best for all to have another vote or better yet treat it as advisory only. Madness to fuck over the whole country based on lies and try and call a minor margin the will of the people. If that is the case then why do opinion polls still keep the vote very even despite everyone being much more knowledgeable about all these lies that were being told? Why do also fail to see that these lies were provided by both sides and still are. The leave option can never be "clearly explained" because no-one actually knows what will happen. There are a wide range of very different "leave" options where as there is only one way to remain. Its this point that it part of the problem because MP's aren't really sure why people actually wanted to leave. I think they do have a fairly decent grip of why that is but that reason is different for varying different socioeconomic groups. The direction the country takes if Brexit does ever happen completely depends on the governing party and the people in the country. A forward thinking government and a population that want to grasp the nettle can make it work. It will never be easy, not that any reasonable person thought it would, and there will be significant issues that arise but with the right approach and mentality, they are issues that will be overcome. With the wrong approach, they are issues that will rip the country further apart. Given how these negotiations have been approached, on what appears to be on both sides to an extent, the latter would appear more likely that the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-wales-cornwall-regional-funding-eu/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 I need a PC to respond to.m what’s been posted. However, John. Can you answer my question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 On 25/01/2019 at 07:19, Matt said: You mean direct democracy? A much more sensible option to what the UK has. Im curious, John. Are you happy with the plan? Matt, I presume you mean this question? If by 'the plan' you mean Theresa May's deal, then no, I am not. I am in favour of a hard Brexit if that is the only option. Incidentally, when I voted to join the Common Market in the 1970's, that is the perfect example, in an EU context, of not knowing what you were voting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 Interesting, vote built on lies (and illegal practices) that the international community wants overturned; how dare they? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-47014322 markjazzbassist, pete0 and Matt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyblue23 Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 On 26/01/2019 at 16:43, MikeO said: Interesting, vote built on lies (and illegal practices) that the international community wants overturned; how dare they? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-47014322 Maduro is an absolute piece of shit but that kind of intervention (the kind the U.S. already made with oil sanctions) makes me incredibly nervous as it has gone poorly over and over again, resulting in dictatorships and even more brutal oppression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 House of Commons says "OXI". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 13 minutes ago, holystove said: House of Commons says "OXI". Nai surely? But will the 27 say oxi to renegiotiation? They've said unequivocally that they won't so what will Mrs Maybe come back to the commons with? Don't miss next week's action packed adventure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 Pointless! Corbyn is now willing to talk to May as well. I'm not sure which leader is the bigger idiot. Personally I am surprised Cooper's amendment got defeated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 12 hours ago, MikeO said: Nai surely? But will the 27 say oxi to renegiotiation? They've said unequivocally that they won't so what will Mrs Maybe come back to the commons with? Don't miss next week's action packed adventure! I was making the comparison with Greece 2015 where they held their referendum, voted "OXI" to the deal ... (and then Greece accepted a worse deal 8 days later.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 14 hours ago, Bailey said: Personally I am surprised Cooper's amendment got defeated. That was down to fourteen Labour MP's voting against it, if they'd have gone with it it would've passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeO said: That was down to fourteen Labour MP's voting against it, if they'd have gone with it it would've passed. I was watching some of it unfold in your House of Commons yesterday. Why don't they use electronic voting like any other modern parliament? Every time there is a 'division' it takes twenty minutes to count the votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, holystove said: I was watching some of it unfold in your House of Commons yesterday. Why don't they use electronic voting like any other modern parliament? Every time there is a 'division' it takes twenty minutes to count the votes. That would require some of them to be able to plan for change... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Matt said: That would require some of them to be able to plan for change... I'm increasingly convinced the UK wouldn't meet the necessary standards of a modern parliamentary democracy to be allowed to (re-)join the EU. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 5 hours ago, MikeO said: That was down to fourteen Labour MP's voting against it, if they'd have gone with it it would've passed. I am surprised more Tories didnt vote for it. Scared of the boss. 4 hours ago, holystove said: I was watching some of it unfold in your House of Commons yesterday. Why don't they use electronic voting like any other modern parliament? Every time there is a 'division' it takes twenty minutes to count the votes. Madness isnt it! The whole House is completely outdated and so are most of the MP's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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