Palfy Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 On 15/12/2018 at 10:31, johnh said: I didn't say they shouldn't be given the right. I criticised your suggestion of how the referendum should be structured. You appear to be suggesting that there should be two options for voting Brexit, but only one for remain. Do you mean that if half the Brexit vote goes for each Brexit option, say 26% for each, and Remain gets 48% then Remain wins? See where your coming from John and the honest answer is I don’t know anymore, when you look at Mays deal it doesn’t suit either camp so maybe just maybe that’s the compromise no winners all losers. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46586673 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 Reckon May has put the vote off until mid Jan to help end the chance of a second plebiscite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 Now that Tony Blair has slithered out from under a rock and is pushing for a second referendum, supporting 'remain', then the chances of Remain winning are now zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Chach said: Reckon May has put the vote off until mid Jan to help end the chance of a second plebiscite? Could be that she realised that not having the vote at all is completely against how our democracy works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, Matt said: Could be that she realised that not having the vote at all is completely against how our democracy works Shouldn't have been a vote in the first place, the result was clear in 1975. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/mourinho-put-in-charge-of-brexit-20181218180698?fbclid=IwAR1YBW83k2WqANMy1f9U-T8Go9RmDafwULMVERbBv-luE2eJ-mIvvU_gnP8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Chach said: Shouldn't have been a vote in the first place, the result was clear in 1975. Yes, it was very clear. We voted to enter the European Common Market not a Federal Europe with its own army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 51 minutes ago, johnh said: Yes, it was very clear. We voted to enter the European Common Market not a Federal Europe with its own army. https://www.cer.eu/insights/eu-army-four-reasons-it-will-not-happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 hour ago, johnh said: Yes, it was very clear. We voted to enter the European Common Market not a Federal Europe with its own army. Except there is no army, there’s NATO. Having a second referendum wasn’t the issue in my opinion. The issue has always been that politicians were uneducated on what they were proposing, used the whole thing for their own political gain and, now it’s coming to an actual vote, not a glorified opinion poll, the PM is refusing to follow the democratic process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 3 hours ago, johnh said: Yes, it was very clear. We voted to enter the European Common Market not a Federal Europe with its own army. The vote in 2016 was necessary because there is a federal Europe with its own army Chach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/17/city-entrepreneurs-leaders-tell-theresa-may-call-second-eu-referendum/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, MikeO said: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/17/city-entrepreneurs-leaders-tell-theresa-may-call-second-eu-referendum/ All those calling for a second referendum just assume it will be Remain this time. What will they do if it is Leave again? In the national interest MPs and the government should just revoke article 50. This is not a question for the people (take this thread as an example). Johnsy and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 23 minutes ago, holystove said: In the national interest MPs and the government should just revoke article 50. Option one by a mile for me.... http://www.toffeetalk.com/topic/27945-brexit/?do=findComment&comment=658581 ....but I hold onto the (probably misguided) hope that the British public realise what a daft decision they made in 2016 so there won't be enough stupid, stubborn (and idealistic) people willing to make the same mistake again. Johnsy and holystove 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 47 minutes ago, holystove said: In the national interest MPs and the government should just revoke article 50. This is not a question for the people (take this thread as an example). You really think it's a question for the MPs / government? They don't know what they're doing, either. Those that pretend they do are guided by self-interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Formby said: You really think it's a question for the MPs / government? They don't know what they're doing, either. Those that pretend they do are guided by self-interest. This is where I actually feel sorry for May (never thought I'd say that); she's been left trying to sort out a shitstorm created by people who've all run away and hidden and are notable only by their vacuous comments (eg Rees-Mogg "terrible result for May") or their silence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 minute ago, MikeO said: This is where I actually feel sorry for May (never thought I'd say that); she's been left trying to sort out a shitstorm created by people who've all run away and hidden and are notable only by their vacuous comments (eg Rees-Mogg "terrible result for May") or their silence. I don't she couldn't wait to implement article 50 she was in such a rush just to prove she was strong and ready to take control of the country. That was the big mistake that she hasn't or the country haven't recovered from she rushed headlong to implementing article 50 without any thought or planning like it was proof she was strong and ready to lead. That's why I don't feel sorry for her she never did her homework or any planning. Matt and pete0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 17 minutes ago, Palfy said: I don't she couldn't wait to implement article 50 she was in such a rush just to prove she was strong and ready to take control of the country. That was the big mistake that she hasn't or the country haven't recovered from she rushed headlong to implementing article 50 without any thought or planning like it was proof she was strong and ready to lead. That's why I don't feel sorry for her she never did her homework or any planning. Can't disagree with that Palfy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Palfy said: I don't she couldn't wait to implement article 50 she was in such a rush just to prove she was strong and ready to take control of the country. That was the big mistake that she hasn't or the country haven't recovered from she rushed headlong to implementing article 50 without any thought or planning like it was proof she was strong and ready to lead. That's why I don't feel sorry for her she never did her homework or any planning. And surrounded herself with the barrel scrapings of the outdoor lav as “advisors”. She didn’t start the shitstorm, but she certainly whipped it up into a tornado crap whilst ignoring anyone or anything that challenged her decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 9 hours ago, johnh said: Yes, it was very clear. We voted to enter the European Common Market not a Federal Europe with its own army. Gotcha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 14 hours ago, holystove said: All those calling for a second referendum just assume it will be Remain this time. What will they do if it is Leave again? In the national interest MPs and the government should just revoke article 50. This is not a question for the people (take this thread as an example). While I agree with the sentiment, there is currently a mandate facilitated by the government for Britain to leave the EU. This genie was loosened by the electorate and only they can put it back* * I know this is ridiculous given the UK has a westminster parliamentary system, eg why would any Liverpool MP whose constituents voted in the majority to remain vote for a bill to Brexit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, Chach said: While I agree with the sentiment, there is currently a mandate facilitated by the government for Britain to leave the EU. This genie was loosened by the electorate and only they can put it back* * I know this is ridiculous given the UK has a westminster parliamentary system, eg why would any Liverpool MP whose constituents voted in the majority to remain vote for a bill to Brexit? Would they even want to if it becomes public knowledge how they voted could make their lives hell, it’s got to be our choice how ever it’s worded. I don’t want them making the decision for me they’ve proven to be incapable of making sensible judgments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Palfy said: I don’t want them making the decision for me they’ve proven to be incapable of making sensible judgments. To be honest your position is moot, you were remain before and remain now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 8 minutes ago, Chach said: To be honest your position is moot, you were remain before and remain now. Not really I have as much of a vested interest as to what happens before and after Brexit as you, this isn’t now solely the demain of the Brexiteers. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 39 minutes ago, Palfy said: Not really I have as much of a vested interest as to what happens before and after Brexit as you, this isn’t now solely the demain of the Brexiteers. The second referendum would be the domain of people changing their mind, Remain > Leave and Leave > Remain. its entirely conceivable the leave position would improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 49 minutes ago, Chach said: The second referendum would be the domain of people changing their mind, Remain > Leave and Leave > Remain. its entirely conceivable the leave position would improve. No it wouldn’t. It would be people who are still interested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 23 minutes ago, Matt said: No it wouldn’t. It would be people who are still interested! Yeah, nah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Chach said: Yeah, nah. I would’ve been Remain before, and I’m still for it now. Others were Leave voters before and show no sign of changing their minds If there was a second referendum it’d be for everyone (ideally), not just those thinking of changing their position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 Just now, Matt said: I would’ve been Remain before, and I’m still for it now. Others were Leave voters before and show no sign of changing their minds If there was a second referendum it’d be for everyone (ideally), not just those thinking of changing their position. Thank you for clarifying, captain obvious. So in summary, it would be for everyone and only the people who have changed their mind from the last time would have a net impact on the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, Chach said: Thank you for clarifying, captain obvious. So in summary, it would be for everyone and only the people who have changed their mind from the last time would have a net impact on the result. No. People have died, new generation of voters coming, for example. Or is that too obvious too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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