EFC-Paul Posted December 10, 2018 Report Share Posted December 10, 2018 Andy Serkis gives his take on Brexit and May, brilliant https://youtu.be/HDukkCR4KP8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 10, 2018 Report Share Posted December 10, 2018 Matt, pete0 and markjazzbassist 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted December 10, 2018 Report Share Posted December 10, 2018 SNP FTW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 10, 2018 Report Share Posted December 10, 2018 Hitting new lows, "I'm not going to hold this vote now because I know I'd lose it." International laughing stock. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 10, 2018 Report Share Posted December 10, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted December 10, 2018 Report Share Posted December 10, 2018 On 09/12/2018 at 20:38, Palfy said: If true then there should be a vote of no confidence in the government, she needs sacking she's already caused untold damage. 22 hours ago, MikeO said: I agree with that but sadly the Labour party is massively split. The rank and file members are hugely Corbyn supporters but his fellow MP's want rid, so even if he got in a position of negotiating he's as unlikely as May to get a deal done. Lose lose situation for me caused by the (I may be repeating myself) vacuous stupidity of the vote in the first place. I think you are right Mike. I dont see anyone getting a deal, in fact the only motion I could see being supported would be to stay in the EU. 7 hours ago, MikeO said: All reports suggest Corbyn is ducking the vote of no confidence but this a great bit of brinkmanship from Sturgeon. The seat is there for Corbyn but he knows this would sink him as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted December 10, 2018 Report Share Posted December 10, 2018 Slight side note but isnt it a huge shame that Yvette Cooper isnt Labour leader? I have seen her a lot across various shows and debates and she nails it every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir McGiven Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 I’m not a part of this discussion but gotta paste this https://9gag.com/gag/axz031L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 Stealing a comment from the BBC (again)... "Ministers quit, PM hanging on to power by a thread with her government in contempt of Parliament, £1bn bribery of the DUP, at least 2 Leave campaigns under investigation for criminality, Deceit, lies, parliamentary shenanigans and fake news and all this to escape the so called 'corrupt & undemocratic EU'. Time to drain the swamp." Palfy, markjazzbassist and pete0 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 hour ago, MikeO said: Stealing a comment from the BBC (again)... "Ministers quit, PM hanging on to power by a thread with her government in contempt of Parliament, £1bn bribery of the DUP, at least 2 Leave campaigns under investigation for criminality, Deceit, lies, parliamentary shenanigans and fake news and all this to escape the so called 'corrupt & undemocratic EU'. Time to drain the swamp." If we were in France the people would have taken to the streets by now, and the perpetrators of the Brexit lies and financial bribes and irregularities would have faced the guillotine by now. MikeO and markjazzbassist 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 40 minutes ago, Palfy said: If we were in France the people would have taken to the streets by now, and the perpetrators of the Brexit lies and financial bribes and irregularities would have faced the guillotine by now. yellow vests sure got Macron to give up more than just the tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 28 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: yellow vests sure got Macron to give up more than just the tax. I know mate he completely folded, you’ve got to hand it to the citizens of France they let their leaders know in no uncertain terms when there not happy, and for decades they’ve got what they want they force their leaders to do what the people want not the other way round which happens here, and the sad thing for me is we roll over and allow our government to treat us with contempt. MikeO and markjazzbassist 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Chach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, rubecula said: Two year old video containing rant by 60 year Italian psychologist talking pure shite. Pretty much everything said in that video has been debunked in this thread multiple times. Palfy, Matt and MikeO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46535739 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 David Schneider @davidschneider Next Tory leader, latest odds: The one who lied on a bus 6-1 The one who lied about impact assessments 8-1 The one who lied to Parliament and resigned 10-1 The one who lied and didn’t resign 15-1 The one who destroyed the NHS 20-1 The one who didn’t know we were an island 8-1 Romey 1878, MikeO and Palfy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 I dont see her going which is a shame... the only two I could have from the Tories would be Ken Clarke and Johnny Mercer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 26 minutes ago, Bailey said: I dont see her going which is a shame... the only two I could have from the Tories would be Ken Clarke and Johnny Mercer. I’m amazed anyone wants to take the job! If May got a poisoned chalice taking over from Cameron, what the hell is this going to be?! rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 From The Times... If MPs can’t decide Brexit, ask the people Rachel Sylvester Parliament has proved again that it cannot agree a plan, so a second referendum offers the only way out of the impasse As if preparing for a major military operation, ministers have been counting down the days to the “meaningful vote” with the code used by army planners: D-3, D-2, D-1. This was supposed to be D-Day for Theresa May’s Brexit deal but yesterday, facing certain defeat in the House of Commons, she delayed the battle. It was a sign of extraordinary weakness, and a personal humiliation for the prime minister. It might help her buy some more time, but she has admitted that she cannot command the support of MPs on the most important policy implemented by any government for a generation. There is virtually no chance that the EU will agree to make substantial changes to the withdrawal agreement, so she will probably soon be annihilated in any case. The Tory leader is like a child playing hide and seek who thinks that by covering her eyes she cannot be seen. She has managed to lose her authority in the Conservative Party as well as in parliament. “She’s toast,” says one Tory MP. More importantly, however, the political process is deadlocked. The constitutional crisis that has been predicted for so long at Westminster is finally upon us. There is, it seems, an unbridgeable divide between the prime minister and her party, between parliament and the executive, between Brexiteers and Remainers, between pragmatists and ideologues. Underlying all these tensions is the conflict between our representative democracy, in which MPs are elected to legislate in the national interest, and the direct democracy of the Brexit referendum. This is less a difference of opinion than a category clash — like playing chess on a football pitch, and expecting the pieces to observe the offside rule. The Brexit vote was a populist cry to “take back control”, painted in primary colours, but it must be delivered through a technocratic withdrawal agreement that was always going to be fifty shades of grey. Instead of a slogan on the side of a bus promising £350 million a week for the NHS, there are 585 pages of densely written text drawn up by the kind of “experts” who were denounced by the Brexiteers. More seriously, there is an innate incongruity between parliament and plebiscite. Historically and constitutionally, MPs are the representatives, not the delegates, of their constituents. They are supposed to exercise their own judgment on behalf of the people who send them to Westminster. It is a concept best described by the Tory philosopher Edmund Burke, who told the voters of Bristol in 1774: “Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving, you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.” That principle was fatally undermined by the decision to throw the vexed question of Britain’s relationship with the EU to the voters in a referendum. Although legally, the result of the 2016 vote was only advisory, politicians felt morally bound by it. Many MPs are torn between their duty to do what they believe is right for the country and the political imperative to follow the “will of the people”. As one minister puts it: “The referendum has not added to democracy; it’s introduced a new conflict of legitimacy.” If this is the real cause of the current political deadlock, then the logical way out is another popular vote. It is surely wrong to insist that public opinion is set in stone when the prime minister seems to change her mind on an hourly basis about what to do. Tobias Ellwood, the defence minister, tweeted last week that the mandate of the 2016 referendum “will begin to date” and “will eventually no longer represent a reflection of current intent”. Indeed Mrs May herself decided that the mandate of the 2015 general election no longer applied after 25 months and required another election. By contrast, it is now nearly 30 months since the EU referendum. The Brexiteers denounce the so-called People’s Vote as a betrayal but can it really be a betrayal of the “will of the people” to ask the people to confirm their will? Nobody is suggesting that the 2016 result should be overturned, just that people should be asked whether they still want to leave now that it is clear what it means. Far from being an affront to democracy, it’s an assertion of democracy. There was always an internal tension among Brexiteers about the meaning of “take back control” if Britain escaped the clutches of the EU. By appealing simultaneously to the ideological Eurosceptics, who were interested in sovereignty, and the white working-class voters, who cared more about immigration, the Leave campaign won the referendum but now the inherent contradictions are becoming clear. It was extraordinary to see the Brexiteers denouncing last week’s Commons vote that gave MPs a say over what happens if Mrs May’s deal is rejected. Stewart Jackson, the former aide to David Davis, condemned this assertion of parliamentary sovereignty as a “long planned coup by the establishment, well represented in parliament to cheat the voters out of the Brexit they voted for”. With judges denounced as the “enemies of the people” and Tory pro-Europeans condemned as “mutineers” the hardline Brexiteers apparently only want to give control back to people who will do what they say. It is deeply irresponsible to warn of civil unrest if the people are asked for their opinion on such a critical issue. The danger is that this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, with passions inflamed by the cries of betrayal. In Whitehall everyone is “going round and round getting dizzy with all the permutations” as one minister puts it but the idea of another referendum is gaining momentum at the highest level. David Lidington, the prime minister’s de facto deputy, has been talking to MPs who support a People’s Vote about how it could work. “He’s in listening mode,” says one, “but he is totally opposed to the Norway model as a way forward. When he was Europe minister he saw how trapped the Norwegians were in their relationship with the EU.” Amber Rudd, the work and pensions secretary, also says she “can’t understand the hysteria” around the idea of another referendum, pointing out that, while she would campaign to Remain, people would have every right to vote to Leave. Several ministers are said to be ready to quit and support another popular vote if Mrs May’s deal is rejected by MPs — indeed, one has already written a resignation letter. Despite Jeremy Corbyn’s reservations, Labour is edging slowly but surely towards the idea. There is a growing sense of inevitability about it. The political system is in meltdown, parliament is gridlocked and the prime minister has lost control of events. The government is doing nothing but Brexit and now it cannot even do that. Another referendum is the only way out of this mess. Palfy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 I am totally against a second referendum myself reason? it would be very hypocritical of me. I voted to leave because the EU is not democratic and a second referendum=m no matter which way the vote goes would also be undemocratic. the sooner this is over and done with the better everyone will fee apart from those idiots who want to start it all again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, rubecula said: I am totally against a second referendum myself reason? it would be very hypocritical of me. I voted to leave because the EU is not democratic and a second referendum=m no matter which way the vote goes would also be undemocratic. the sooner this is over and done with the better everyone will fee apart from those idiots who want to start it all again. Thing is Rubes there needs to be a vote or referendum on whether we like the deal because it isn’t what Brexiteers voted for or remainers, so I can’t comprehend how you are prepared to except just to get it over and done with, if your so interested in just getting it over and done with the easiest thing would be to revoke article 50 and stay in. What you fail to see in your version of democracy is that if you voted for leave or remain because of certain promises that were made and then to find out later you had been lied to you shouldn’t you have the choice to reflect and change your opinion, if not that’s not democracy Rubes. So now that both sides of the argument are more informed as to what stay or leave will look like without all the lies and propaganda on both sides, there should be another vote in the interest of democracy which is. 1) except the deal negotiated ( and not leave it for the MPs to decide whether to except it or not because they will just make it party politics) 2) Leave with no deal 3) Remain For me that would be democracy working for the good of democracy MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 hours ago, rubecula said: I am totally against a second referendum myself reason? it would be very hypocritical of me. I voted to leave because the EU is not democratic and a second referendum=m no matter which way the vote goes would also be undemocratic. the sooner this is over and done with the better everyone will fee apart from those idiots who want to start it all again. That really makes little sense Rubes mate. Why, in a democracy, is it hypocritical to change your mind? It's kind of the point of democracy that you're allowed to do so, you don't hit 18, cast a vote and have that stand for the rest of your life; you assess what's going on and change if/when you feel the need and are more convinced by one side or another. The Tories voted in a leader a couple of years back who some of them now feel isn'tt up to the job so some of them will be changing their minds, is that undemocratic? Also if you're talking about the EU being undemocratic (arguable) then what about the House of Lords? You don't get less democratic than that. The only vote that's going to get through parliament, in my view, is when a leader has the metaphorical (or real) testicles to stand up and say, "OK thanks for the thoughts in the referendum and we've investigated them thoroughly as you asked but it turns out that leaving is going to be extremely detrimental to our country so we're not going to do it." Cue much civil unrest and a brief surge of support for UKIP but it's a price worth paying. Sibdane and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Look, Brexit isn’t going to happen. So rejoice in the fact that the losers of the vote will actually be the winners, and the wants of 17 million people will be ignored. Im not even arsed anymore, I’m bored of the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said: Look, Brexit isn’t going to happen. So rejoice in the fact that the losers of the vote will actually be the winners, and the wants of 17 million people will be ignored. Im not even arsed anymore, I’m bored of the whole thing. I hope you're right Mark, embarrassing times for the country but the 17 million people voted on an invented predication that never existed outside the minds of a few self serving Tories and the UKIP loonies. Python couldn't beat this. I'm equally bored but still arsed. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 7 hours ago, rubecula said: I voted to leave because the EU is not democratic. Being wrong the first time is the ABSOLUTE BEST reason to want a second referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 I can’t believe that people still don’t understand how our democracy works. A second referendum would be no more undemocratic than the first. The closest we got to respecting our democracy was a vote on the final deal, with May chickened out of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 11 hours ago, Romey 1878 said: Look, Brexit isn’t going to happen. So rejoice in the fact that the losers of the vote will actually be the winners, and the wants of 17 million people will be ignored. Im not even arsed anymore, I’m bored of the whole thing. It’s not a game you play or a film you watch that after a while you’ve played it or watched so much you become bored of it, far from it it’s about the future of the country and future generations, now if you can’t be arsed with that then find yourself a little desert Island somewhere and fuck off and stop praying off the people who do care about their future and the future of the country. Sorry mate but I find your comment the comment of a fucking arsehole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Palfy said: It’s not a game you play or a film you watch that after a while you’ve played it or watched so much you become bored of it, far from it it’s about the future of the country and future generations, now if you can’t be arsed with that then find yourself a little desert Island somewhere and fuck off and stop praying off the people who do care about their future and the future of the country. Sorry mate but I find your comment the comment of a fucking arsehole. No. Bored of hearing about it. Bored of reading the same arguments. Bored of May. Bored of hearing from the cretins like Reece-Mogg and Juncker. All of them. Bored of you. Bored of Rubes. Bored of Matt. Bored of hearing my mum whinge about the whole fucking thing. Bored. Bored. Bored. Can't wait for it to end and I couldn't care less how it ends now. Just finish it. Come to think of it, stay or go it's likely to be a piece of shit anyway and I'll still be bored as people continue to whinge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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