Brexit...

[Matt]

4 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

No.

Bored of hearing about it. Bored of reading the same arguments. Bored of May. Bored of hearing from the cretins like Reece-Mogg and Juncker. All of them. Bored of you. Bored of Rubes. Bored of Matt. Bored of hearing my mum whinge about the whole fucking thing. 

Bored. Bored. Bored.

Can't wait for it to end and I couldn't care less how it ends now. Just finish it.

Come to think of it, stay or go it's likely to be a piece of shit anyway and I'll still be bored as people continue to whinge.

I know what you mean. I’m bored of people ignoring basic facts 

[holystove]

This Australian journalist is also bored of brexit and has written an article about it.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-britain-small-boring-and-stupid-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

No.

Bored of hearing about it. Bored of reading the same arguments. Bored of May. Bored of hearing from the cretins like Reece-Mogg and Juncker. All of them. Bored of you. Bored of Rubes. Bored of Matt. Bored of hearing my mum whinge about the whole fucking thing. 

Bored. Bored. Bored.

Can't wait for it to end and I couldn't care less how it ends now. Just finish it.

Come to think of it, stay or go it's likely to be a piece of shit anyway and I'll still be bored as people continue to whinge.

Ok mate apologies for the way I responded to your post it was very rude of me and I shouldn’t have responded in that manner. 

I’ll be off now in case I’m beginning to bore you

[Matt]

2 hours ago, holystove said:

This Australian journalist is also bored of brexit and has written an article about it.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-britain-small-boring-and-stupid-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

That’s an excellent article. 

[markjazzbassist]

12 hours ago, holystove said:

This Australian journalist is also bored of brexit and has written an article about it.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-britain-small-boring-and-stupid-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Shouldn’t they be more concerned about the island prison they have for migrants and the abuses that happen there?  Absolute shameful stuff from the Australians, how they can come from a place of calling May stupid while human rights abuses are happening with government approval is sickening

[Matt]

3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Shouldn’t they be more concerned about the island prison they have for migrants and the abuses that happen there?  Absolute shameful stuff from the Australians, how they can come from a place of calling May stupid while human rights abuses are happening with government approval is sickening

Coming from an American? I do love irony  

[markjazzbassist]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Coming from an American? I do love irony  

I never said we weren’t complicit in heinous crimes currently (we are), but the atrocity happening in Australia is sick.  

 

 

[johnh]

On 12/12/2018 at 19:16, Palfy said:

Thing is Rubes there needs to be a vote or referendum on whether we like the deal because it isn’t what Brexiteers voted for or remainers, so I can’t comprehend how you are prepared to except just to get it over and done with, if your so interested in just getting it over and done with the easiest thing would be to revoke article 50 and stay in. 

What you fail to see in your version of democracy is that if you voted for leave or remain because of certain promises that were made and then to find out later you had been lied to you shouldn’t you have the choice to reflect and change your opinion, if not that’s not democracy Rubes. 

So now that both sides of the argument are more informed as to what stay or leave will look like without all the lies and propaganda on both sides, there should be another vote in the interest of democracy which is. 

1) except the deal negotiated ( and not leave it for the MPs to decide whether to except it or not because they will just make it party politics)

2) Leave with no deal 

3) Remain

For me that would be democracy working for the good of democracy  

So splitting the vote on Brexit but not on Remain is democratic is it?

[Matt]

57 minutes ago, johnh said:

So splitting the vote on Brexit but not on Remain is democratic is it?

Eh? That makes no sense to me. Do you mean add an option something like Remain with plan of change vs Remain and continue as usual? I’d be all for that, provided there was a plan. It would be a much more positive approach. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

So splitting the vote on Brexit but not on Remain is democratic is it?

But do you believe democracy is to lie to people to gain their vote and when it becomes clear they are untrue statements, to then deny them the right of recourse whether a remainer or leaver. 

For me that’s not democracy working as it should, blatantly lying to win the agenda isn’t democratic it’s more akin corruption but not in your world. 

If I was swayed to vote Brexit because we won’t have to pay them a penny to leave, because we will be giving 350 Million a week to the NHS,  because there give us what we want because they need to trade with us more than we need to with them, because all other countries outside the EU will be queuing to do trades deals with us 

All of which that twat Boris and the Brexit campaign said would happen and now knowing the reality of the situation I would want the right to change my mind that’s the only fair and democratic thing you can offer those people, why do you think they shouldn’t be given that right?

 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

But do you believe democracy is to lie to people to gain their vote and when it becomes clear they are untrue statements, to then deny them the right of recourse whether a remainer or leaver. 

For me that’s not democracy working as it should, blatantly lying to win the agenda isn’t democratic it’s more akin corruption but not in your world. 

If I was swayed to vote Brexit because we won’t have to pay them a penny to leave, because we will be giving 350 Million a week to the NHS,  because there give us what we want because they need to trade with us more than we need to with them, because all other countries outside the EU will be queuing to do trades deals with us 

All of which that twat Boris and the Brexit campaign said would happen and now knowing the reality of the situation I would want the right to change my mind that’s the only fair and democratic thing you can offer those people, why do you think they shouldn’t be given that right?

 

Two wrongs don’t make a right. If I understood John correctly, there should be more than just 3 choices. No deal leaves us in unknown territory, Mays deal leaves us in the same situation just without a voice with our biggest trade partner.

However, “Remain” is just as vague unless you believe in no change pre this debacle, and a vote to “remain but to improve on (plan tbd)” or %age needs to be determined more than 2-3% is a must if we want to reunite the country. Everyone being allowed to vote this time would be nice too, not that I’m bitter  

That said, all the above is purely academic as our democratic model has already been ignored, except when it actually matter and May decided to refuse the vote on her deal (how our democracy actually works). 

3rd paragraph I agree with completely. 

Oh, and we’ve been reminded harshly that politicians will always put the career first...

[pete0]

I struggle to see any benefits if we leave. 

- (even) lower wages and a weaker pound 

- less exports depending on barriers. (If the pound takes a huge hammering there'll be more exports however this could have a knock on and increase inflation and cause another crash in the housing market completely fucking new home owners)

- less imports as they will be more expensive (lower wages/disposable income and weaker pound) and more barriers

- less jobs as big businesses will down size their UK based headquarters and relocate to the EU to minimise the impact of the trade barriers 

- less human rights

- (even) less workers rights 

- poorer food standards 

- poorer health care 

- less global power 

- and the most worrying thought a government that doesn't have to answer to anyone. Very fucking worrying considering the shower of corrupt poor hating shits currently in power. 

The only benefit I can see is that 52% of the people who bothered to vote will get to say they won. What the fuck they actually get other than bragging rights I don't know. 

[Matt]

49 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I struggle to see any benefits if we leave. 

- (even) lower wages and a weaker pound 

- less exports depending on barriers. (If the pound takes a huge hammering there'll be more exports however this could have a knock on and increase inflation and cause another crash in the housing market completely fucking new home owners)

- less imports as they will be more expensive (lower wages/disposable income and weaker pound) and more barriers

- less jobs as big businesses will down size their UK based headquarters and relocate to the EU to minimise the impact of the trade barriers 

- less human rights

- (even) less workers rights 

- poorer food standards 

- poorer health care 

- less global power 

- and the most worrying thought a government that doesn't have to answer to anyone. Very fucking worrying considering the shower of corrupt poor hating shits currently in power. 

The only benefit I can see is that 52% of the people who bothered to vote will get to say they won. What the fuck they actually get other than bragging rights I don't know. 

Wages and currency - yes, for the foreseeable future  

rights - no

health service - inevitably if the Tories stay in power. Nothing to do with Brexit. 

Less global power - been on the decline for decades but yes. 

Politicians have only ever served themselves, so no change there. 

The “We won” bullshit. Yes. 

[markjazzbassist]

weaker pound means more tourists to the uk, eh?  time for MJB to book a trip once your market crashes

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

weaker pound means more tourists to the uk, eh?  time for MJB to book a trip once your market crashes

Stronger against the CHF just as I go over though  

[MikeO]

2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

weaker pound means more tourists to the uk, eh?  time for MJB to book a trip once your market crashes

£ v € is total crap at the moment but I can only see it getting worse so I bought around €2000 for our May/June holiday today, dreadful rate but I see no scenario where it gets better (remaining aside).

[pete0]

52 minutes ago, Matt said:

Wages and currency - yes, for the foreseeable future  

rights - no

health service - inevitably if the Tories stay in power. Nothing to do with Brexit. 

Less global power - been on the decline for decades but yes. 

Politicians have only ever served themselves, so no change there. 

The “We won” bullshit. Yes. 

In light of the government intentions explained in the White Paper, the most significant effect of Brexit on equality and human rights are likely to be:

• the loss of the Charter of Fundamental Rights which includes some rights which are not in the Human Rights Act, for example on the rights of the child and a general right to non-discrimination. The Charter also provides a stronger way of enforcing human rights, in some cases, than the Human Rights Act.
• the loss of the guarantee for equality rights provided by EU law. As a result of Brexit a future government could seek to pass laws which repeal or weaken our current rights below the standard of EU law rights

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-human-rights-work/what-does-brexit-mean-equality-and-human-rights-uk

The tories are using health care as a bargaining chip for favourable terms with the US. NHS is under funded by them but a full brexit almost guarantees the death of free health care. 

I agree about self serving politicians but at least they get pulled up by the EU such as the recent poverty review. 

[rubecula]

I have lost 110 euros I had bought for a trip.   I have no idea where they are. 

[Chach]

[rubecula]

31 minutes ago, Chach said:

one these was voted on by MPs the other was voted on by the people  I think comparing these two things is an affront to common sense.

[Chach]

21 minutes ago, rubecula said:

one these was voted on by MPs the other was voted on by the people  I think comparing these two things is an affront to common sense.

MPs are people too.

ps Irony.

[rubecula]

3 minutes ago, Chach said:

MPs are people too.

ps Irony.

are you sure?   I thought people may have meant human and politicians can nt be human can they?  

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, rubecula said:

one these was voted on by MPs the other was voted on by the people  I think comparing these two things is an affront to common sense.

I agree so why are we allowing MPs to decide on whether we except a deal or not, whether you wish to remain or leave it's not the cleverest of things to do, I just find it so hard to contemplate that we would allow the lying scum bags the defining decision on our futures.

Surely I can not be the only one who feels this way, it must be out decision.

[rubecula]

5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree so why are we allowing MPs to decide on whether we except a deal or not, whether you wish to remain or leave it's not the cleverest of things to do, I just find it so hard to contemplate that we would allow the lying scum bags the defining decision on our futures.

Surely I can not be the only one who feels this way, it must be out decision.

don't worry (you are not )

[Matt]

6 hours ago, rubecula said:

one these was voted on by MPs the other was voted on by the people  I think comparing these two things is an affront to common sense.

 

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

I agree so why are we allowing MPs to decide on whether we except a deal or not, whether you wish to remain or leave it's not the cleverest of things to do, I just find it so hard to contemplate that we would allow the lying scum bags the defining decision on our futures.

Surely I can not be the only one who feels this way, it must be out decision.

 

So you don’t know how our democracy works?

[Matt]

 

[johnh]

18 hours ago, Palfy said:

But do you believe democracy is to lie to people to gain their vote and when it becomes clear they are untrue statements, to then deny them the right of recourse whether a remainer or leaver. 

For me that’s not democracy working as it should, blatantly lying to win the agenda isn’t democratic it’s more akin corruption but not in your world. 

If I was swayed to vote Brexit because we won’t have to pay them a penny to leave, because we will be giving 350 Million a week to the NHS,  because there give us what we want because they need to trade with us more than we need to with them, because all other countries outside the EU will be queuing to do trades deals with us 

All of which that twat Boris and the Brexit campaign said would happen and now knowing the reality of the situation I would want the right to change my mind that’s the only fair and democratic thing you can offer those people, why do you think they shouldn’t be given that right?

 

I didn't say they shouldn't be given the right.  I criticised your suggestion of how the referendum should be structured.  You appear to be suggesting that there should be two options for voting Brexit, but only one for remain.   Do you mean that if half the Brexit vote goes for each Brexit option, say 26% for each, and Remain gets 48% then Remain wins?   

[Bailey]

On 12/12/2018 at 14:55, Matt said:

I’m amazed anyone wants to take the job! If May got a poisoned chalice taking over from Cameron, what the hell is this going to be?!

I dont think anyone could do any worse, so whilst it would definitely cause that person a headache, if they are compared to May they will always be looked upon more positively.

On 12/12/2018 at 19:52, MikeO said:

That really makes little sense Rubes mate. Why, in a democracy, is it hypocritical to change your mind? It's kind of the point of democracy that you're allowed to do so, you don't hit 18, cast a vote and have that stand for the rest of your life; you assess what's going on and change if/when you feel the need and are more convinced by one side or another.

The Tories voted in a leader a couple of years back who some of them now feel isn'ttt up to the job so some of them will be changing their minds, is that undemocratic?

Also if you're talking about the EU being undemocratic (arguable) then what about the House of Lords? You don't get less democratic than that.

The only vote that's going to get through parliament, in my view, is when a leader has the metaphorical (or real) testicles to stand up and say, "OK thanks for the thoughts in the referendum and we've investigated them thoroughly as you asked but it turns out that leaving is going to be extremely detrimental to our country so we're not going to do it."

Cue much civil unrest and a brief surge of support for UKIP but it's a price worth paying.

I think the issue is that when does this stop?

People voted to stay or remain, no option for a deal or anything like that. It is then up to politicians to make the will of the people become a reality which they have failed miserably on.

I do get the point that now people have a clearer idea of what Brexit means and therefore this vote will be more informed and be slightly different however what happens after the results are in? If its still a vote to leave, will that be the end of it or will there be more appeals for a 3rd vote. If the vote swings to remain, will it need to be the same threshold (ie more than 50%) or will it need to be greater. How will those people who voted leave feel about the political process if they lose this second election? What is the point of voting on an issue, if you are going to have more votes until you get the right answer? Especially when you bear in mind that this 2nd vote is essentially predicated on the basis that those who originally voted leave in the first place "didnt know what they were voting for".

In respect of the House of Lords, they cant make rules and almost all of the powers to prevent legislation have been or are being taken away. They are essentially now a body which revises and checks proposals from the Commons. They have no fear of losing their seat, nor have to play up to the media so the opinion they share should in essence be unaffected by outside influences.

The EU commission has more power than the House of Lords and I believe they propose and draft laws which are then voted upon by the elected ministers. I suppose neither of them has any full power other than one suggests laws to start with and the other suggests way to improve them. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong here.

I agree with you on the last two paragraph though.

[Matt]

5 hours ago, johnh said:

I didn't say they shouldn't be given the right.  I criticised your suggestion of how the referendum should be structured.  You appear to be suggesting that there should be two options for voting Brexit, but only one for remain.   Do you mean that if half the Brexit vote goes for each Brexit option, say 26% for each, and Remain gets 48% then Remain wins?   

Doesn’t it negate the whole thing with there being two choices to leave anyway?

[Chach]