Brexit...

[johnh]

We have a Prime Minister who does not think Britain can hack it in the modern world without the crutch of the EU.

[Matt]

We have a Prime Minister who does not think Britain can hack it in the modern world without the crutch of the EU.

Of course he thinks that. He answer to no-one and be able to privatize postage stamp production in the traditional Tory way.

 

Anything that man says, assume the opposite is for the best of the country.

[rubecula]

Have you seen the latest figures for foreign investment?

 

We have more new investment than either Germany or France, it has gone up by 118% in the North West for example.

 

Gives lie to the statement about us surviving outside of EU. Figures in full on BBC by the way.

[Matt]

Have you seen the latest figures for foreign investment?

 

We have more new investment than either Germany or France, it has gone up by 118% in the North West for example.

 

Gives lie to the statement about us surviving outside of EU. Figures in full on BBC by the way.

Got the link? I can't find it.

 

I wonder if that new investment had anything to do with the revamp of Liverpool after the £2billion of EU money was invested/is to be invested in setting up Merseyside for development:

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/17-things-european-funding-done-10925208

 

A good point made in the final line here too:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/what-european-union-ever-done-7175124

 

Critics of the EU will point out that the UK puts far more into the EU than it takes out.

But do you really think any UK government would have handed over quite so much money to regions like Merseyside to spend on its own priorities?

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Matt

[rubecula]

Sorry Matt I think you would be better off checking the site or the TV news yourself. I am on my laptop and I am having a problem or two

Edited May 24, 2016 by Rubecula

[Matt]

https://www.facebook.com/rsrc.php/v2/y4/r/-PAXP-deijE.gif

goes to a blank page for me mate

[rubecula]

Hang on

[rubecula]

Bollocks!!! read up

[Matt]

https://www.facebook.com/ggnwhite/posts/10154075262132347

[markjazzbassist]

I'm wondering with all these foreign players if the premier league will just turn into the SPL overnight. It will be all English players and the level will be championship caliber since premier league teams have only 5 English total on their squad (on average I'm guessing).

 

I wonder if the brexit could spell the end of the big tv money premier league.

[johnh]

I'm wondering with all these foreign players if the premier league will just turn into the SPL overnight. It will be all English players and the level will be championship caliber since premier league teams have only 5 English total on their squad (on average I'm guessing).

 

I wonder if the brexit could spell the end of the big tv money premier league.

 

Well not overnight, contracts would have to be honoured. But it will still be up to the Government who to allocate work permits to and I can't see them refusing non-British players who have a job to come to. Nothing will change.

[rubecula]

Whatever the result it looks like it will be a close call

[Matt]

https://www.facebook.com/donnachadh/posts/10208416893604033

[MikeO]

https://www.facebook.com/donnachadh/posts/10208416893604033

 

Excellent.

[Newty82]

Of those EU benefits listed, how do we know that we as a nation wouldn't have applied them anyway? Or done it even better?

 

We don't I suppose. That's the gamble.

 

The EU was a great idea that brought many benefits to a war torn Europe. But over time, it's lost its way. It's become more of a dictatorship than a democracy. The world has developed. More options are available.

 

I'm swinging towards OUT but I've not closed the book.

[MikeO]

Of those EU benefits listed, how do we know that we as a nation wouldn't have applied them anyway? Or done it even better?

 

We don't I suppose. That's the gamble.

 

The EU was a great idea that brought many benefits to a war torn Europe. But over time, it's lost its way. It's become more of a dictatorship than a democracy. The world has developed. More options are available.

 

I'm swinging towards OUT but I've not closed the book.

 

Who's the dictator?

[Matt]

Of those EU benefits listed, how do we know that we as a nation wouldn't have applied them anyway? Or done it even better?

 

We don't I suppose. That's the gamble.

 

The EU was a great idea that brought many benefits to a war torn Europe. But over time, it's lost its way. It's become more of a dictatorship than a democracy. The world has developed. More options are available.

 

I'm swinging towards OUT but I've not closed the book.

doesnt matter what might've been, the facts are there.

 

And what other options?

Edited May 25, 2016 by Matt

[MikeO]

Of those EU benefits listed, how do we know that we as a nation wouldn't have applied them anyway? Or done it even better?

 

We don't I suppose. That's the gamble.

 

That's like saying, "I married my wife thirty years ago and lots of brilliant things have happened to me since; got great kids and grand kids, sure we've had our ups and downs and the in-laws are a pain at times but overall life's been good. But what would have happened if I'd married someone else ? Would life be equally as good? Or even better maybe! I think I'll get a divorce to see what my other options are, sure that Asian lass in accounts has the hots for me!"

[Newty82]

Not the same at all.

 

How long have we existed without the EU? How long have we existed within the EU?

 

Our governments don't tend to have the average joe's interest at heart. So when the Government is lobbying hard to stay in, who are they looking after? Who's at the for front of their agenda? Is it me? Who will still go to work and earn a liveable wage? Or is it the Banks and mega rich who may face a bit of turbulence due to how the markets work? I may my taxes. I have to. But who is it that doesn't pay anywhere near the correct amount of taxes who may suddenly find their lucrative loop holes aren't so big anymore? Is it the big multi national corporates? Is that the same big multi national corporates that actually hold the power?

 

Realistically, will we suddenly collapse and fall to our knees? Will all business big and small suddenly close? Will we vote out and find tumble weed in our high streets? They talk about a recession. Does that mean we've never had a recession since being in the EU?! Doesn't a recession happen about every decade anyway? Isn't a recession actually caused by greedy individuals in banks and hedge funds etc who gamble with average joe's money? Aren't these the same banks etc that are lobbying for us to stay in the EU? Is that because, ultimately, it's easier for them to dictate markets and make more money?

 

They say pulling out will collapse the NHS. Is that the same NHS which is already on its knees?

 

Who really influences how well we can perform as a country? Us? Banks? Big Corporates? Our own Government? The EU?

 

I'm just thinking out loud!!!

[MikeO]

Not the same at all.

 

How long have we existed without the EU? How long have we existed within the EU?

 

Our governments don't tend to have the average joe's interest at heart. So when the Government is lobbying hard to stay in, who are they looking after? Who's at the for front of their agenda? Is it me? Who will still go to work and earn a liveable wage? Or is it the Banks and mega rich who may face a bit of turbulence due to how the markets work? I may my taxes. I have to. But who is it that doesn't pay anywhere near the correct amount of taxes who may suddenly find their lucrative loop holes aren't so big anymore? Is it the big multi national corporates? Is that the same big multi national corporates that actually hold the power?

 

Realistically, will we suddenly collapse and fall to our knees? Will all business big and small suddenly close? Will we vote out and find tumble weed in our high streets? They talk about a recession. Does that mean we've never had a recession since being in the EU?! Doesn't a recession happen about every decade anyway? Isn't a recession actually caused by greedy individuals in banks and hedge funds etc who gamble with average joe's money? Aren't these the same banks etc that are lobbying for us to stay in the EU? Is that because, ultimately, it's easier for them to dictate markets and make more money?

 

They say pulling out will collapse the NHS. Is that the same NHS which is already on its knees?

 

Who really influences how well we can perform as a country? Us? Banks? Big Corporates? Our own Government? The EU?

 

I'm just thinking out loud!!!

 

But who's the dictator?

[MikeO]

If 'in' is 1/5 on with the bookies, that's good news for the 'outers'. The bookies got it spectacularly wrong at the last election, as did the pollsters.

 

I won a bet on the last election and struck another bet at the time. That Brexit would win 55% to 45%. Have just looked at the poll above.

 

Reading back through the thread just now John; I'm sorry to break the news to you but the TT poll is not legally binding :dont know:.

[Newty82]

 

But who's the dictator?

I said It's become more of a dictatorship than a democracy. In other words, it's slowly swinging the wrong way in my mind.

 

There is no single dictator. I think thats what your question is trying to get at...name that one person. There doesn't have to be a single dictator, a single person, to be a dictatorship. It can a single political entity, in this case the EU with its unelected members, colleagues and President. In which more countries become members, adopt the currency, take out a loan at huge cost to come up to EU standards and are then pretty much stuck in the system. But again, who benefits from that? Not the average joe. Yet again it's the Banks and big multi national corporates. Ask the average joe Greek. Amongst others.

 

So yeah, a dictatorship of sort. Not in the historical manner of the Romans Empire or Hitler. But in a modern manner of Banks and big business.

 

Crikey. My brain hurts. Again, just thinking out loud really!!!

[Newty82]

 

Reading back through the thread just now John; I'm sorry to break the news to you but the TT poll is not legally binding :dont know:.

You taking the piss? I've ripped up my poling card and told the missus I've already voted on here.

 

Disgraceful.

[MikeO]

I said It's become more of a dictatorship than a democracy. In other words, it's slowly swinging the wrong way in my mind.

 

There is no single dictator. I think thats what your question is trying to get at...name that one person. There doesn't have to be a single dictator, a single person, to be a dictatorship. It can a single political entity, in this case the EU with its unelected members, colleagues and President. In which more countries become members, adopt the currency, take out a loan at huge cost to come up to EU standards and are then pretty much stuck in the system. But again, who benefits from that? Not the average joe. Yet again it's the Banks and big multi national corporates. Ask the average joe Greek. Amongst others.

 

So yeah, a dictatorship of sort. Not in the historical manner of the Romans Empire or Hitler. But in a modern manner of Banks and big business.

 

Crikey. My brain hurts. Again, just thinking out loud really!!!

 

What was I voting for in the last European election then if it's made up of unelected members ? It's not a dictatorship, never has been, never will be (imo).

 

In the UK large amounts of power rest with unelected peers and senior civil servants; I maintain the view that the EU (and it's governance) are far more democratically elected than our own law makers. Much fairer electoral system; much wider representation.

[Matt]

Slight side step

 

[Newty82]

 

What was I voting for in the last European election then if it's made up of unelected members ? It's not a dictatorship, never has been, never will be (imo).

 

In the UK large amounts of power rest with unelected peers and senior civil servants; I maintain the view that the EU (and it's governance) are far more democratically elected than our own law makers. Much fairer electoral system; much wider representation.

Is it EC which has unelected members who all debate the new rules and regulations etc? I was watching a programme on it the other day. While the elected 'face' members just throw mud at each other, like they do here?!!!

 

Who elected the President of the EU? And the previous one?

 

I like what the EU is supposed to be. The idea and the foundations it was built on 'way back then' were all for good intentions. However, I feel that as it expands and welcomes in anyone and everyone, it will become more a headache for average joe than it will a benefit. And I'm all for average joe, because I think these are the people that make our countries tick but as the EU expands and grows in size and stature, average joe gets silenced and big fat greedy Banker and his mistress Mrs multi national corporates becomes ever more powerful.

 

I fear true democracy is slowly dieing but that people aren't able to see it. We have a chance to snatch back some democracy.

[Matt]

There is no democracy. The world has evolved, politics hasn't kept up.

[markjazzbassist]

There is no democracy. The world has evolved, politics hasn't kept up.

 

was gonna say it's an oligarchy over here in the states. screw the EU vote, when you gonna get rid of that queen and royal system? that would free up the tax money for the NHS

[Newty82]

There is no democracy. The world has evolved, politics hasn't kept up.

That's true. Voting for your next Government has long been a case of 'voting for the better evil'!!!

[Newty82]

 

was gonna say it's an oligarchy over here in the states. screw the EU vote, when you gonna get rid of that queen and royal system? that would free up the tax money for the NHS

Worth a fortune in tourism though!

 

But a bit pointless in the modern world!

[Matt]

That's true. Voting for your next Government has long been a case of 'voting for the better evil'!!!

i can't vote anywhere, but I'll try and share my opinion

[holystove]

Is it EC which has unelected members who all debate the new rules and regulations etc? I was watching a programme on it the other day. While the elected 'face' members just throw mud at each other, like they do here?!!!

 

Who elected the President of the EU? And the previous one?

 

I like what the EU is supposed to be. The idea and the foundations it was built on 'way back then' were all for good intentions. However, I feel that as it expands and welcomes in anyone and everyone, it will become more a headache for average joe than it will a benefit. And I'm all for average joe, because I think these are the people that make our countries tick but as the EU expands and grows in size and stature, average joe gets silenced and big fat greedy Banker and his mistress Mrs multi national corporates becomes ever more powerful.

 

I fear true democracy is slowly dieing but that people aren't able to see it. We have a chance to snatch back some democracy.

 

My head hurts reading this thread.

 

Just to clarify: there is no EU president. There is a president of the European Council. The European Council is a group of heads of state who decide the general direction of the EU. These heads of state were ellected by their the citizens of their country.

 

There is one country at the forefront of keeping the EU undemocratic and that is the UK, by blocking further political integration. (again, this is why I hope Leave wins though I'm very much convinced it would be bad for the people in the UK; in an ideal world the UK would leave now, the EU would integrate further, and then the UK can re-apply in ten years or so).

 

-

 

 

It's most definitely fine to be against the EU, but none of the arguments that I've read here make any sense.

 

Reading this thread there is such a lack of understanding, people just don't know what the EU is; what it does; and how a strong EU can serve us (all Europeans) in the coming years.

 

With the lack of knowledge, and the misinformation through British media perhaps Mike said it best: can you vote for something being campaigned for by Johnson, Gove, Duncan-Smith and Farage?

[johnh]

 

Reading back through the thread just now John; I'm sorry to break the news to you but the TT poll is not legally binding :dont know:.

 

I wish you'd told me earlier, I've sent the results to the Sun.

[johnh]

 

My head hurts reading this thread.

 

Just to clarify: there is no EU president. There is a president of the European Council. The European Council is a group of heads of state who decide the general direction of the EU. These heads of state were ellected by their the citizens of their country.

 

There is one country at the forefront of keeping the EU undemocratic and that is the UK, by blocking further political integration. (again, this is why I hope Leave wins though I'm very much convinced it would be bad for the people in the UK; in an ideal world the UK would leave now, the EU would integrate further, and then the UK can re-apply in ten years or so).

 

-

 

 

It's most definitely fine to be against the EU, but none of the arguments that I've read here make any sense.

 

Reading this thread there is such a lack of understanding, people just don't know what the EU is; what it does; and how a strong EU can serve us (all Europeans) in the coming years.

 

With the lack of knowledge, and the misinformation through British media perhaps Mike said it best: can you vote for something being campaigned for by Johnson, Gove, Duncan-Smith and Farage?

 

That's exactly right. People don't know what the EU is, what it does............ This is because it is continually evolving. It started off as a 'Common Market' with the ultimate aim of becoming a 'super state'. The EU elite knew that they could never get that objective accepted by (most) member states which is why it is being done piecemeal. The pace will quicken though if we vote to remain. Those who think the EU is democratic because there is a vote for MEP's must have the EU elite laughing all the way to the bank. The 'elite', where the real power is invested, can't be shifted.

[holystove]

A common market has been achieved for over 25 years. Ever since the goal has been integration in every domain where action taken by the EU would be more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level, resulting in an "ever closer union". A super-state isn't possible under EU constitutional law and isn't, nor was it ever, the end goal.

 

Some countries try to block this process towards an ever closer union (I singled out the UK, but there are others - Poland, Czech Republic, ..). Therefor the EU would prosper without these countries. I don't see how you can state "the pace will quicken though if we vote to remain"; quite to the contrary.

 

About this "EU elite"; do you mean the Commission? Or something more obscure, conspiracy-theorist-thing?

 

If you mean the Commission, I would agree that it's necessary to give legislative initiative to the European Parliament, instead of just the Commission but the Commission can't decide anything without the OK from the Parliament (direct democracy) and/or the member states (indirect democracy).

 

If you don't mean the Commission; who are these elite? Are they only in Europe or also in the UK? Can they be shifted in the UK? How will the Brexit affect these elite?

 

The democratic deficit in the EU doesn't exist in the sense that there is no direct or indirect link with people taking the decisions and people who voted for them.

The democratic deficit in relation to the EU means there is no European identity; noone identifies with the EU institutions because they don't know what they do and even though they take decisions that have an impact on every-day-life. One reason, the main reason even, for this is that everything that goes wrong in Britain is blamed on the EU, and everything that is a positive influence on peoples lives coming from the EU is claimed by national politicians.

[Matt]

Your thesis must've been fascinating to read

[rubecula]

Migration is more than 3 times what the government said we can have according to official figures. (333,000 as opposed to 100,000) with 184,000 coming from Eastern Europe. Make of that what you will.

 

Source: BBC television news. (Today's headlines.)

[Matt]

So?

[johnh]

Migration is more than 3 times what the government said we can have according to official figures. (333,000 as opposed to 100,000) with 184,000 coming from Eastern Europe. Make of that what you will.

 

Source: BBC television news. (Today's headlines.)

 

Cameron said the Government would reduce immigration to 'tens of thousands'.

[markjazzbassist]

I don't understand the objection to immigrants. They take the jobs no one wants, cleaning toilets, cutting grass, housekeeping. What's the big deal? It helps the economy because they will spend money in England.

[johnh]

A common market has been achieved for over 25 years. Ever since the goal has been integration in every domain where action taken by the EU would be more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level, resulting in an "ever closer union". A super-state isn't possible under EU constitutional law and isn't, nor was it ever, the end goal.

 

Some countries try to block this process towards an ever closer union (I singled out the UK, but there are others - Poland, Czech Republic, ..). Therefor the EU would prosper without these countries. I don't see how you can state "the pace will quicken though if we vote to remain"; quite to the contrary.

 

About this "EU elite"; do you mean the Commission? Or something more obscure, conspiracy-theorist-thing?

 

If you mean the Commission, I would agree that it's necessary to give legislative initiative to the European Parliament, instead of just the Commission but the Commission can't decide anything without the OK from the Parliament (direct democracy) and/or the member states (indirect democracy).

 

If you don't mean the Commission; who are these elite? Are they only in Europe or also in the UK? Can they be shifted in the UK? How will the Brexit affect these elite?

 

The democratic deficit in the EU doesn't exist in the sense that there is no direct or indirect link with people taking the decisions and people who voted for them.

The democratic deficit in relation to the EU means there is no European identity; noone identifies with the EU institutions because they don't know what they do and even though they take decisions that have an impact on every-day-life. One reason, the main reason even, for this is that everything that goes wrong in Britain is blamed on the EU, and everything that is a positive influence on peoples lives coming from the EU is claimed by national politicians.

Elites?

Just one example: Baroness Ashton, who was appointed to head the new EU 'Foreign Affairs' outfit, had never been elected to anywhere in her life, either in this country or Europe. We know that the then Labour Government put her forward but there is a fair bet that whoever agreed to her appointment on behalf of the EU wasn't elected either.

[Matt]

[MikeO]

Elites?

Just one example: Baroness Ashton, who was appointed to head the new EU 'Foreign Affairs' outfit, had never been elected to anywhere in her life, either in this country or Europe. We know that the then Labour Government put her forward but there is a fair bet that whoever agreed to her appointment on behalf of the EU wasn't elected either.

 

But we elected the government who put her forward; same as they select any number of non-elected people to do jobs in the UK, Europe and around the World.

 

Not to mention the House of Lords, jam packed with people who've never been voted for having a role in our governance.

[holystove]

Elites?

Just one example: Baroness Ashton, who was appointed to head the new EU 'Foreign Affairs' outfit, had never been elected to anywhere in her life, either in this country or Europe. We know that the then Labour Government put her forward but there is a fair bet that whoever agreed to her appointment on behalf of the EU wasn't elected either.

 

"The high representatie of the union for foreign affairs and security policy" can only represent the EU on issues where the member states are in complete consensus. In other words, it's just an ambassador.

 

Are ambassadors elected in Britain? Is an ambassador considered an elite?

 

 

Migration is more than 3 times what the government said we can have according to official figures. (333,000 as opposed to 100,000) with 184,000 coming from Eastern Europe. Make of that what you will.

 

Source: BBC television news. (Today's headlines.)

 

If you're against immigration from other EU states and feel so strongly about it that it overshadows everything else, then "Vote Leave" is the only option for you. Be aware though that a Brexit would have little effect on immigration from non-EU-member states such as Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, ...

[johnh]

Let me use the House of Lords in an analogy. Lets assume that the (unelected) House of Lords were all powerful and ran the country. We all got a vote for MP's in the Commons but they had minimal power or influence - a sop to democracy. This would be a perfect example of the EU, an unelected powerbase with MEP's as a sop to democracy.

[johnh]

By the way, Boris has told me that in the event of a referendum 50/50 the poll at the top of this thread will decide the winner.

[johnh]

Democracy EU style.

 

Jean-Claude Junker (unelected) has announced that any EU country electing a right wing populist party will be subject to sanctions and will lose voting rights. Currently aimed at Austria and Poland.

[MikeO]

 

"The high representatie of the union for foreign affairs and security policy" can only represent the EU on issues where the member states are in complete consensus. In other words, it's just an ambassador.

 

Are ambassadors elected in Britain? Is an ambassador considered an elite?

 

Interested in your response to this John. Funnily enough I used the example of our foreign ambassadors when explaining this debate to my wife in the car earlier.

 

 

Democracy EU style.

 

Jean-Claude Junker (unelected) has announced that any EU country electing a right wing populist party will be subject to sanctions and will lose voting rights. Currently aimed at Austria and Poland.

 

Apart from my immediate reaction which is "good" he's not come up with that policy all by himself though has he?

[johnh]

So Mike, what you a saying is, if UKIP were voted in at the next election (I hope not too) you would have no concerns about Junker applying sanctions to the UK and withdrawing our voting rights? It doesn't really matter if Junker thought it up by himself or was just announcing a group decision, except that its even worse if more people think that way. As I said, democracy EU style, which isn't really democracy at all.

[Matt]

John, democracy doesn't exist anyway, not sure where the issue is

[MikeO]

So Mike, what you a saying is, if UKIP were voted in at the next election (I hope not too) you would have no concerns about Junker applying sanctions to the UK and withdrawing our voting rights? It doesn't really matter if Junker thought it up by himself or was just announcing a group decision, except that its even worse if more people think that way. As I said, democracy EU style, which isn't really democracy at all.

 

None whatsoever because I'd be moving abroad with immediate effect .

 

To Syria if necessary.

[johnh]

John, democracy doesn't exist anyway, not sure where the issue is

 

Matt, well at least we go with whoever wins the election. Who was it, Ireland and Holland told to vote again.

[Matt]

 

Matt, well at least we go with whoever wins the election. Who was it, Ireland and Holland told to vote again.

the election process doesn't even represent the people though!

[johnh]

the election process doesn't even represent the people though!

 

Not perfect I agree, but better than some nameless bureaucrat in Brussels making the decision.

[MikeO]

 

Not perfect I agree, but better than some nameless bureaucrat in Brussels making the decision.

 

But, as I said, it's not him making the decision is it? He didn't wake up one morning and think, "That's an idea, I'll impose it!" It will have gone through a lot of stages and discussion (hopefully Holystove will elaborate) before he announced it.

 

(And anyway, how can he be nameless when you just told us his name ?)

[MC11]

I'll be voting to leave - because I can.

[Gwlad all over]

Out for me and has been since the last vote. That was for a common market which although I accepted, couldn't support. Now it's a double edged sword as I see it; we vote out, yes a leap into the unknown but many people do that in daily life and it turns out ok or very well. If we stay in I think the referendum idea will catch on and some other countries will actually vote out and we'll be left under the thumb of Germany and propping up the minnows who have come/will join.

[Matt]

I'll be voting to leave - because I can.

Utterly unsurprised. Any more behind your reasoning?

[holystove]

Utterly unsurprised. Any more behind your reasoning?

To make America Britain great again!

[holystove]

Democracy EU style.

 

Jean-Claude Junker (unelected) has announced that any EU country electing a right wing populist party will be subject to sanctions and will lose voting rights. Currently aimed at Austria and Poland.

 

I googled this because I wanted to know your source. Turns out it's the Sun? I read the article and it's just blatant disinformation.

 

1) He never said any EU country electing a right wing populist party will be subject to sanctions and will lose voting rights because he doens't have the authority to do so. What he (probably) said and what was (intentionally?) misinterpreted by the Sun is that part of the policy put forth by extremist (left or right) parties is in breach of EU law. It is the role of the Commission to make sure every member state upholds EU law. If a member state goes against EU law, the Commission can summon that member state before the European Court of Justice which can impose sanctions or suspend voting rights.

 

2) Junker is Commission President. He was proposed for this position by a consensus among the member states. He then had to be approved by the European Parliament.

 

.

 

It's a shame that people would vote (stay or leave) just because "they can" and thereby cancel out a vote from someone who genuinely thought about it and informed themselves.

 

It's an even bigger shame that people who try to make an informed opinion are confronted with disinformation and lies.

Edited May 27, 2016 by holystove