Formby Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 I think it will be interesting to see if Johnson really does stay hard right, in the court of the ERG. He has assembled a Caligari-esque cabinet of dysfunctional, frightening people, but it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't steer a more median line now he has such a big majority. Not sure why Labour didn't see this coming. Corbyn was the liability from the outset. Nice to see he wants to stay on to oversee another Momentum candidate taking charge, rather than doing the decent thing and resigning now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 10 hours ago, RPG said: You obviously don't understand the very successful defence policy of NATO since WW2. The reason we have not had a war is because of our nuclear deterrent. No nuclear weapons = no deterrent = far higher risk of war. It really is that simple. You never said that the evidence is there for all to see, and then after it was pointed out to you that there has been wars after WW2 involving people with nuclear weapons and how could I forget Vietnam, so they obviously didn’t prove a deterrent to the countries involved, you can’t except you were wrong, you add another post saying I said this after the first post, I’m surprised you never reverted back to type and changed it, by using your last excuse of I always recheck my posts for spelling errors, what an appalling liar you are, on top of a far right facist pompous bigot, and now as shown in your last posts as an egotistical hypocrite. And on your point of the election, yes I am disappointed but not for myself but for my children and grandchildren, but I’m so ecstatic you had nothing to do with it, because you would be gloating, oh you already have how childish and you’re not even a voter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 24 minutes ago, Formby said: I think it will be interesting to see if Johnson really does stay hard right, in the court of the ERG. He has assembled a Caligari-esque cabinet of dysfunctional, frightening people, but it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't steer a more median line now he has such a big majority. Not sure why Labour didn't see this coming. Corbyn was the liability from the outset. Nice to see he wants to stay on to oversee another Momentum candidate taking charge, rather than doing the decent thing and resigning now. Labour should have got David Milliband to lead, Corbyn too far left and had too many people who don't like Johnson or the Tories voting for them anyway!!! A bad situation. Corbyn needed to really understand the need to be pragmatic... he would be PM if he did. A bit like Everton under Martinez.... pretty passing is all and well it not essential in our own penalty area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, johnh said: Assuming Brexit now happens, Remainer's do have a major consolation. At least they now know that 'democracy' has prevailed. We came very close to destroying it. Conservatives got 358 on 43.6% of the vote. Labour and Lib Dems got 214 on 43.8% of the vote. Labour + LibDem + SNP + Greens + Plaid Cymru + Sinn Fein + SDLP + Alliance = 52,2% of the vote. A majority of people voted for parties which opposed the Brexit deal and were pledging to put it back to the people in a second referendum. etc. etc. Palfy and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, holystove said: Conservatives got 358 on 43.6% of the vote. Labour and Lib Dems got 214 on 43.8% of the vote. Labour + LibDem + SNP + Greens + Plaid Cymru + Sinn Fein + SDLP + Alliance = 52,2% of the vote. A majority of people voted for parties which opposed the Brexit deal and were pledging to put it back to the people in a second referendum. etc. etc. True, but this time the democratic process was actually followed, even if it was mutated because of the key issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, RPG said: You do talk a load of tosh Palfy. I think you are used to getting your own way and don't like it when you can't impose your will and your views on others. Hard luck pal, it ain't ever going to happen with me. It is most entertaining though. I bet you were the kid at school that owned the football, insisted on being both captain and referee and picked both teams in an attempt to stack the deck in your favour. You were, weren't you Palfy! Anyway, that's me done for today. This champagne hangover means it will be a quiet day in front of the tv with take away food, berocca vitamin tablets and a couple of panadol for me. I hope you enjoyed the Rijoca - but go easy on it pal. Try arsenic fascist it will be more to your taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Matt said: True, but this time the democratic process was actually followed, even if it was mutated because of the key issue. Yes the conservatives won a clear majority within the system, not disputing that. I was just having a dig at John who always rails against the undemocratic nature of the EU. Chach, MikeO and Matt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, johnh said: Assuming Brexit now happens, Remainer's do have a major consolation. At least they now know that 'democracy' has prevailed. We came very close to destroying it. It did indeed, well at least our version of it. 5 minutes ago, Matt said: True, but this time the democratic process was actually followed, even if it was mutated because of the key issue. It's the FPTP system that's all wrong. The Tories increased their share of the vote by 1.2% and got an extra 47 (7.2%) MPs , the LibDems increased their vote share by 4.2% and lost one. LibDems got 11.5% of the vote and 1.7% of MPs. This means that the Tories got an MP for every 38,000 votes and the LibDems an MP for every 332,500 votes. Just plain wrong but it's not going to change. It was the outcome I expected, feared and forecast all along unfortunately and not quite what someone who shall remain nameless confidently predicted... "Labour will certainly lose a lot of seats (as many as 90) in the north to the brexit party as Labour 'Remain' MPs representing solid 'Leave' constituencies are booted out. I think Labour will also lose some seats to the Lib Dems in the south, meaning that Labour could finish third or even fourth behind Conservative, Lib Dems and Brexit Party." Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, MikeO said: It did indeed, well at least our version of it. It's the FPTP system that's all wrong. The Tories increased their share of the vote by 1.2% and got an extra 47 (7.2%) MPs , the LibDems increased their vote share by 4.2% and lost one. LibDems got 11.5% of the vote and 1.7% of MPs. This means that the Tories got an MP for every 38,000 votes and the LibDems an MP for every 332,500 votes. Just plain wrong but it's not going to change. It was the outcome I expected, feared and forecast all along unfortunately and not quite what someone who shall remain nameless confidently predicted... "Labour will certainly lose a lot of seats (as many as 90) in the north to the brexit party as Labour 'Remain' MPs representing solid 'Leave' constituencies are booted out. I think Labour will also lose some seats to the Lib Dems in the south, meaning that Labour could finish third or even fourth behind Conservative, Lib Dems and Brexit Party." True, but it’s the actual democratic system, as fucked up as it actually is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, RPG said: Indeed. But we moved on from 'Tripwire' through 'MAD' to 'Graduated Response' over the years as the threats and our capability to respond to them have evolved. But, throughout the evolution of the threats, it has been our independent nuclear deterrent and our NATO membership that has ensured our security from nuclear attack. Same basic principle, not to undermine the importance of NATO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 15 minutes ago, Matt said: True, but it’s the actual democratic system, as fucked up as it actually is. Indeed. The other anomaly is that (on 2017 figures) our constituencies range in size in terms of electorate from 21,769 to 110,697, so that's another example of some being more equal than others. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, RPG said: Can I ask how you justify that statement when, by far, the vast majority of new votes for the Conservative Party in GE19 have come from working class constituencies who have previously nearly always voted Labour? Workington, Bolsover, Blyth, and many more. It is the working class that won this election for the Conservative Party. Your just a cunt end of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 28 minutes ago, Palfy said: Your just a cunt end of. Palfy, come on now. This is going too far, reel yourself in please. One or two posts of anger and frustration I get but this isn’t the first or second time. Less of the personal insults please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeO said: Indeed. The other anomaly is that (on 2017 figures) our constituencies range in size in terms of electorate from 21,769 to 110,697, so that's another example of some being more equal than others. Quite fitting with the government that’s in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted December 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Matt said: True, but it’s the actual democratic system, as fucked up as it actually is. It's amazing how the loser's always fall back on proportional representation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted December 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeO said: Indeed. The other anomaly is that (on 2017 figures) our constituencies range in size in terms of electorate from 21,769 to 110,697, so that's another example of some being more equal than others. The current anomaly of constituency sizes considerably benefits Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 Just now, johnh said: It's amazing how the loser's always fall back on proportional representation. I’ve not lost anything, so no idea what you’re talking about there. I’ve maintained a belief of direct democracy for years, proportional representation isn’t ideal but it’s a lot better and more fundamentally a truer type of democracy than FPTP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 32 minutes ago, johnh said: It's amazing how the loser's always fall back on proportional representation. So do you really think it's a fair and equitable system when that the Tories got an MP for every 38,000 votes cast and the LibDems got one for every 332,500 votes? That's indefensible for me. 30 minutes ago, johnh said: The current anomaly of constituency sizes considerably benefits Labour. I wasn't being political one way or another John, just pointing out another thing that I personally think is wrong with the archaic way we elect our government. Good to have you back by the way. holystove and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, Matt said: Palfy, come on now. This is going too far, reel yourself in please. One or two posts of anger and frustration I get but this isn’t the first or second time. Less of the personal insults please. Can’t stand the man, if you can call him a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Palfy said: Can’t stand the man, if you can call him a man. That’s been made very clear, it doesn’t need repeating further. Last warning please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Matt said: That’s been made very clear, it doesn’t need repeating further. Last warning please. That’s not going to change my mind on what I think him, he’s a prick. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Palfy said: That’s not going to change my mind on what I think him, he’s a prick. I tried. Keep your opinion to yourself in this instance, it’s been aired enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, RPG said: Agreed. But it works both ways. Those saying that the SNP taking 48/59 seats in Scotland makes the case for IndyRef2 should also be aware that these seats were taken with less than 50% of the popular vote - which kind of destroys the argument for IndyRef2 if you apply the same logic. Maybe so, but they voted with a clear majority in the referendum (60/40 if I remember correctly) so I’d say there’s more reason than ever for them to want to uncouple themselves from a union dictated by foreigners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 What the hell happened to the DUP by the way? NI another that voted majority to remain, then took a bribe and got fucked by their allies. NIndyRef next? (I should copyright that and make a fortune) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, RPG said: It is certainly a valid basis of debate, I agree. But I wonder how an IndyRef2 vote would play out as by no means all voters in Scotland viewed the election as IndyRef, I think, like England, it was Brexit dominated. But trying to square that circle is impossible as I just can't see how Scotland can remain a part of UK and also remain in EU. If push comes to shove I think (though am not entirely confident) that the choice would be to remain in UK if the price of remaining in EU was to leave UK. They take the Euro, become the border control point to bring additional income whilst benefiting from the EU who will give bigger debates to show solidarity whilst NI gets further fucked and ends up uniting the whole of Ireland. Maybe it’ll all work out ok in the end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, RPG said: The EU would have to alter its rules to allow that to happen. At the moment an 'independent' Scotland would not come anywhere near close to meeting the criteria to even apply to join EU. But yes, EU could always give it a waiver. It might be a precedent that would bite EU in the ass later though. No they wouldn’t. England, NI and Wales would have to. It’s the whole discussion about the hard border again, just this time on the island instead of in NI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 hours ago, RPG said: Maybe I have missed something but my understanding is that Scotland wouldn't meet the financial criteria to apply. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/25/would-brussels-even-allow-independent-scotland-join-eu/ Dated 8 months ago by the Torygraph? Come on now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 Out of all of this, one positive is that seems Boris has found his hairbrush... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 14, 2019 Report Share Posted December 14, 2019 The first to lose there job in Boris’s cabinet reshuffle should be Rees Mogg, should there even be a place in the world for people like him, the far right need to be cast away from the Tory party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted December 14, 2019 Report Share Posted December 14, 2019 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/foodbank-app-miriam-cates-mp-conservative-general-election-universal-credit-a9245901.html?fbclid=IwAR1DtjaI7KqVEAVhuctBxHxL9m6N8-Q-YeaYlt3rXIauwMWog5uv3EOLzWA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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