General Election/UK Politics

[Chach]

Here's an example from a recent by-election in the ousted Oz PM's seat, in FPTP the conservative would have won handily with 43% of total vote, but with no one on 50%+ preferences flowed to the independent who won a majority.

[Palfy]

On 01/01/2020 at 16:47, Chach said:

Here's an example from a recent by-election in the ousted Oz PM's seat, in FPTP the conservative would have won handily with 43% of total vote, but with no one on 50%+ preferences flowed to the independent who won a majority.

Your PMs blown his chances at the next election, whilst the country burns he’s holidaying apparently

[MikeO]

On 01/01/2020 at 11:30, Chach said:

There has been no vote on PR watered down or otherwise, the vote was whether to introduce an Alternative Voting system where voter preferences are taken into account.

True enough it wasn't PR as I'd like it but it was electoral reform of a sort, which we desperately need (IMO) so that our elections aren't decided by how people vote in the minority number of constituencies that are "marginals".

[Chach]

On 03/01/2020 at 01:28, Palfy said:

Your PMs blown his chances at the next election, whilst the country burns he’s holidaying apparently

I wouldn't go off the hysteria in the media, he just won a GE and will win the next one. Same situation as the UK, there's no opposition.

[Chach]

On 03/01/2020 at 02:46, MikeO said:

True enough it wasn't PR as I'd like it but it was electoral reform of a sort, which we desperately need (IMO) so that our elections aren't decided by how people vote in the minority number of constituencies that are "marginals".

No reason you couldn't have reform with PR in a new democratically elected House of Lords but I think you need local members representing their constituencies in the lower house so preference voting is the way to go there I reckon.

In my experience with an upper house thats PR you often get the minor parties/cross benchers in the balance of power so they often block bad legislation or get the needed amendments, not perfect but works pretty well.

[pete0]

A vote for tory is a vote for slum landlords * shock-horror *

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/shock-government-suddenly-scraps-scheme-17554888?fbclid=IwAR2h1MbcweaIE3moq5uSU9xqJYpRofcnX5_1-iIMzNmNrkZEfIGz7QqSApw

[MikeO]

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

A vote for tory is a vote for slum landlords * shock-horror *

Need to keep all their voters happy.

[pete0]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Need to keep all their voters happy.

Landlords and £100k earners should be the minority. I just don't see how that get more votes than the other parties, well I don't see how they get any votes tbh it's inhumane what they stand for and what they do. Austerity and lack of governance over corporates absolutely destroyed Greece, why would we then proactively follow the same path? The only thing austerity is proven to do is increase tribalism and help promote fascism. 

It's mass murder and when the history books are rewritten I very much see Boris Johnson's face next to Hitler and the ilk. Joke that the schools currently don't teach about Thatcher and her tyranny causing poverty, covering up Hillsborough and keeping paedophiles in power as to use them as pawns. 

[Palfy]

13 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Landlords and £100k earners should be the minority. I just don't see how that get more votes than the other parties, well I don't see how they get any votes tbh it's inhumane what they stand for and what they do. Austerity and lack of governance over corporates absolutely destroyed Greece, why would we then proactively follow the same path? The only thing austerity is proven to do is increase tribalism and help promote fascism. 

It's mass murder and when the history books are rewritten I very much see Boris Johnson's face next to Hitler and the ilk. Joke that the schools currently don't teach about Thatcher and her tyranny causing poverty, covering up Hillsborough and keeping paedophiles in power as to use them as pawns. 

Not all landlords or people who earn excess of £100k are Tories, I’m not and I’m both of those things. 
Generalising normally works but not in all instances, I find that most Tories are working class but believe calling themselves Tories makes them feel they are better maybe middle class, Thatcher created a form of snobbery within the working class if you like, and it’s still there.

Boris as created a form of racism in the Tories align that with the working class who think there middle class, and want out of the EU more because of freedom of movement and you have quite a powerful Tory base. 
Now I’m just generalising and not all Tories are the same, but for me I’d rather be a fairly well off working class landlord who try’s to treat his tenants how he he would want to be treated, and still hold the values that I believe is the main stay of the Labour Party, and being against capitalism isn’t one of them. 

[MikeO]

The clamber up Trump's arse has started, Boris has moved from base camp to camp one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51104386

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

The clamber up Trump's arse has started, Boris has moved from base camp to camp one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51104386

Camp two.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-51103190

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, MikeO said:

The clamber up Trump's arse has started, Boris has moved from base camp to camp one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51104386

We knew it was going to happen, he’s selling us to the devil, in the hope of a trade deal to mask over the disaster looming with our Brexit. 

[London Blue]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

Or, maybe, it is just the right thing to do. After all, the existing agreement with Iran has hardly been a resounding success has it.

Only because Trump ripped it up. Until then it was limiting Iran's Nuclear ambitions, allowing regular inspections and calming fears of nucular proliferation in the region.Not perfect but doing what it was designed to do.

[London Blue]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

I find it amazing how so many European companies that had threatened to pull out of UK if we dared to implement brexit are now falling over themselves to extol the virtues of continuing and expanding their business in post brexit UK.

More project fear exposed as nothing more than cow towing to their EU masters.

The latest company to do a complete volte face being non other than Airbus!

https://ukupdates.co.uk/airbus-sees-great-potential-to-expand-after-brexit/

We wont know the cost until the trade deal is delivered, but there will be a cost.

[Matt]

Hypocrisy based on 1 British founded company saying it wants to stay in Britain after all?  some of the words you’ve used recently have very different meanings to what you actually think they do. 

[London Blue]

5 hours ago, RPG said:

But it wasn't working was it. Iran was hiding stuff left right and centre and the agreement itself was time limited.

Politics aside, I welcome a new approach on pure security grounds.

Yes it was, the United Nations nuclear inspectors visited Iran, all the sites, and said there was no enriching of uranium beyond the level needed for fuel. All their reports are on line if you want to check.

It was time limited, the idea was to allow time for a more comprehensive agreement which would see Iran have a fully functioning nuclear energy program be agreed.

There was never going to be an agreement on limiting Irans involvement in the middle east, unless Saudi Arabia agreed to the same limitations, which was never going to happen as both are battling for regional power.

Security wise this is a nightmare, when Iran develops a nuclear warhead, and it is a case of "when not if" now, Israel will feel compelled to attack Iran, to try to prevent Iran from deploying it. Iran will feel compelled to respond wither directly or through proxy's. Then you have two nuclear armed states at war in the worlds volatile region.

[London Blue]

5 hours ago, RPG said:

Can you not at least acknowledge the complete change in position from Airbus?

When it thought it could help EU stop brexit there were all sorts of threats and warnings about a pull out from UK.

Now Airbus knows that brexit will happen it is talking not just about staying in UK but actually expanding its operation there.

Whilst this is obviously welcome news on trade grounds, it does highlight the total hypocrisy of project fear and all those that pushed it.

I agree Airbus's change is pretty 180, but it is a European institution so it was always going to be political.

The numerous other companies have scaled back or moved all or part of their operations overseas, look at the car industry for example.

But that all pales into comparison with the risk of our service sector not being able to do business in Europe, the service sector accounts for almost 80% of our GDP.   

[pete0]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/15/matt-hancock-accident-emergency-nhs-waiting-targets-likely-scrapped?fbclid=IwAR0i9WcoizR0koL_BTh_UZIydEX-610nHVwDMBtCNDe4RRpIXUIXY8dfkU8

Problem solved... 

[pete0]

3 hours ago, RPG said:

I think the other info that came with the link you shared is that the number of people attending A&E has risen by 25% (in round figures from 1.6 million to 2.0 million) since 2010. That is a rise in demand that, imho, is unreasonable, and that leads us straight back to controls on immigration.

It is the National Health Service not the Global Health Service.

It's unreasonable for people to be unwell? We don't have health tourist that's just you and the Daily mail trying to justify your racist immigration stance. We have more people attending a and e as they can't get an appointment at their local doctor, reason being we don't have enough GPs. Add to that the rising population on what was an already stretched NHS and its clear to see it's supply that is the problem, not demand. The tories have purposely under funded it and people are dying because of it. 

Note without immigration the figures would be even worse as a fair chunk of our medical staff are from over seas. 

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

So, yes, I can agree that NHS is overstretched. But in order to fix the problem we have to ask ourselves why it is overstretched. And that is mainly because of the demands being placed upon it,

So in your opinion get rid of the foreigners and close the borders, and all the problems of the NHS will be solved. 
That’s the far right facist solution, which could and should be classed as a form of racism. 

[johnh]

53 minutes ago, Palfy said:

So in your opinion get rid of the foreigners and close the borders, and all the problems of the NHS will be solved. 
That’s the far right facist solution, which could and should be classed as a form of racism. 

'Get rid of foreigners and close borders' is not remotely what RPG said.

[EFC-Paul]

In theory what your saying RPG is right the numbers don't lie but I massively disagree with funding 

Regardless of "extra funds" it's a moot point if those added funds don't cover the already massive deficit in operating costs 

It's like putting 20p in a vending machine for a brew and it costs 25p, you'll just be stood there like a cock waiting for something to happen when it never will..... Until Trump comes along to add 5p and walks away with your cupper whilst your stood there out of pocket and left still wanting 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, johnh said:

'Get rid of foreigners and close borders' is not remotely what RPG said.

He’s blaming the problem of the NHS on immigration by insinuating  that 25% rise or 1.6-2 million more people using the services is a direct result of our open borders with the EU, the people who come here from the EU work and contribute to the system in Taxes and NI contributions, the NHS is in trouble because of the years of underfunding by this Tory government in the name of austerity. 
But the far right want to blame all our woes on our open borders with the EU. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, EFC-Paul said:

 

In theory what your saying RPG is right the numbers don't lie but I massively disagree with funding 

 

I don’t agree with that, are you saying that 2 million more migrants are using our hospitals this year than used them in 2010  that’s why we’ve had a 25% increase in its demand, because that’s the only reason he can give for the extra demand and poor service, blame the foreigners. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, EFC-Paul said:

In theory what your saying RPG is right the numbers don't lie but I massively disagree with funding 

Regardless of "extra funds" it's a moot point if those added funds don't cover the already massive deficit in operating costs 

It's like putting 20p in a vending machine for a brew and it costs 25p, you'll just be stood there like a cock waiting for something to happen when it never will..... Until Trump comes along to add 5p and walks away with your cupper whilst your stood there out of pocket and left still wanting 

I firmly believe that you can throw as much money at the NHS as you like and it won't touch the sided without significant reform. You go into some hospitals and despite the same funding some wards are really well managed and others are a farce.

Furthermore you get stupid pay for things like a Chaplain or a project manager and yet nurses are paid a pittance in comparison. 

[MikeO]

8 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigration-nhs

This is a 2015 article regarding immigration and the NHS.

Key points include:

You choose to ignore the "verdict" at the end of the article.

"The use of NHS services by immigrants and visitors will also vary across the country, depending on the number and type of immigrants in the area. However, in some cases the United Kingdom is recouping the costs of treating non-British nationals through reciprocal agreements with their respective governments or, from April 2015, through up-front fees that temporary residents need to pay before they enter the United Kingdom.

Alongside this, immigrants make up a substantial part of the NHS workforce. With some key areas of the NHS workforce already in very short supply, this contribution is very significant."

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/

Here is another article from a fact checking website that suggest the NHS is simply failing to recoup the costs of treating European citizens that it is owed.

On the figures given in your first link the amount of the NHS budget being spent on "benefit tourists" amounts to 0.0708% of the total (worst case scenario), not exactly earth shattering.

[MikeO]

2 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

I've already mentioned the proportion of non British workers within the NHS and it matches the proportion of non British people living in the country. That is why I did not see fit to mention it again but I get where you are going with this one.

I'm not "going" anywhere I'm just looking at what you posted and commenting on it, no agenda.

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, MikeO said:

this contribution is very significant."

Obviously not for everyone particularly for those who don’t live in this country, or use it’s services. 
The NHS is in a bad state purely due to the lack of funding, but there will always be those who want to lay it squarely at the door of immigration and immigrants. 
Obviously those who have blamed immigration as the route cause of a over stretched NHS are as equally to blame for the argument that will pursue, or should people who disagree with that statement say nothing, and cower done to the views of the far right.  

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

I'll give you my honest opinion here now. I think that when people talk about foreigners using the NHS they don't really mean or perhaps understand who the foreigners are. I think what they are really getting at are British born Indians or Pakistanis. They use foreign as a catch all term for non-white whether they are born here or not.

Now what the statistics are for BAME use of the NHS compared to white British I don't have the foggiest.

Do you genuinely believe that the majority of white British nationals think that people with a different colour skin are foreigners, if you were a white supremacist you would think that, if you were a member of a far right nationalist party you would possibly think that. 
I don’t know who you socialise with but I can genuinely say I know nobody who would believe that or even thinks that.