At what point do we say we are in a relegation dogfight?

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I was referring to the West Ham game. There was no change in tactics for that game, hence no reason for the performance to suddenly improve other than the psychological effects of knowing who was going to be in charge permanently.

Exactly

[Cornish Steve]

3 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

 

Why do you think he was turning things around?

We lost 2-0 away to a struggling Leicester , we were getting comfortably beaten by Watford until the keeper let us back in then made really poor Palace and Southampton sides look like Barcelona and Real Madrid

That’s not to mention the embarrassing Europa fiasco

By the time we beat a struggling West Ham Allardyce had already been appointed

 

 

 

Ignore the Europa games because they were pointless. Palace had turned the corner, and so had Leicester. We beat an in-form Watford and hammered a West Ham that's since been climbing the table. Southampton was a poor game, admittedly, but games under Crooked Sam have been worse. Anyway, the key is not so much how we did in specific games but more whether we were improving. The West Ham game reveals that we were.

Based on their respective records, I'm guessing we'd have about the same number of points today if Unsworth had remained in charge but we'd be playing much better football and beginning to build confidence. Crooked Sam is playing terrible football and has now stated that he plans to make it even more boring. Heaven help us!

[nyblue23]

7 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Ignore the Europa games because they were pointless. Palace had turned the corner, and so had Leicester. We beat an in-form Watford and hammered a West Ham that's since been climbing the table. Southampton was a poor game, admittedly, but games under Crooked Sam have been worse. Anyway, the key is not so much how we did in specific games but more whether we were improving. The West Ham game reveals that we were.

Based on their respective records, I'm guessing we'd have about the same number of points today if Unsworth had remained in charge but we'd be playing much better football and beginning to build confidence. Crooked Sam is playing terrible football and has now stated that he plans to make it even more boring. Heaven help us!

Crooked in front of anyone’s name is no longer acceptable thanks to Fuckface von Clownstick. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Ignore the Europa games because they were pointless. Palace had turned the corner, and so had Leicester. We beat an in-form Watford and hammered a West Ham that's since been climbing the table. Southampton was a poor game, admittedly, but games under Crooked Sam have been worse. Anyway, the key is not so much how we did in specific games but more whether we were improving. The West Ham game reveals that we were.

Based on their respective records, I'm guessing we'd have about the same number of points today if Unsworth had remained in charge but we'd be playing much better football and beginning to build confidence. Crooked Sam is playing terrible football and has now stated that he plans to make it even more boring. Heaven help us!

An in form Palace .... really? Before playing us they had 7 points and had scored 6 goals all season in the league and had just been battered 4-1 by Bristol City in the Cup

Leicester has only amassed 9 points and had just sacked their manager

Watford had lost their previous 2 games coming in to our fixture and gave only won once since then

Southampton had 7 points and scored 7 before they battered us 4-1

The one good performance was against another poor side who had also just sacked their manager

So get a bit of perspective before you start comparing records , the facts show we were awful under Unsworth

[Shukes]

Well the facts actually show we were better under Unsworth than both Koeman and Sam. Points earnt that is.... if we’re being factual.

[nogs]

12 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

In what way has he had backing ?

I love Unsworth and I would have loved it to have worked out for him but he looked totally out of his depth

How long would you have given him?

Under Unsy we were playing like we did on Saturday every game and we were plummeting towards the bottom of the table rapidly

 

So what has changed? Apart from the fact we no longer score goals. 

[nogs]

11 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

There was a definite change in tactics the moment Allardyce walked through the door , you only have to look at the difference in Keane and Williams to see that

 

Yeah big change in them, they've been benched!! 

[Paddock]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Well the facts actually show we were better under Unsworth than both Koeman and Sam. Points earnt that is.... if we’re being factual.

They will because Unsworth managed for far less games.

[Paddock]

4 minutes ago, nogs said:

So what has changed? Apart from the fact we no longer score goals. 

We weren’t really scoring many before that Nogs and were conceding at an alarming rate. Granted we just got bummed by Spurs but so will a lot of sides this season.

[nogs]

6 minutes ago, Paddock said:

We weren’t really scoring many before that Nogs and were conceding at an alarming rate. Granted we just got bummed by Spurs but so will a lot of sides this season.

We scored 10 in 5 league games under Unsworth. We've had 5 shots on target in the last 5 games. 

Yeah Spurs are an excellent side, it was the performances against Bournemouth and West Brom that worried me. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

So what has changed? Apart from the fact we no longer score goals. 

Well what happens is for each game we play we get one point for a draw and three points for a win and we have this thing called a league table we’re all the points are added up
If you look at the table now we have more points and have climbed out of the relegation scrap to ninth, that’s what has changed

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Well the facts actually show we were better under Unsworth than both Koeman and Sam. Points earnt that is.... if we’re being factual.

Show me a single fact that proves this

[Romey 1878]

http://www.football365.com/news/allardyce-everton-playing-themselves-back-into-relegation

[nogs]

29 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Well what happens is for each game we play we get one point for a draw and three points for a win and we have this thing called a league table we’re all the points are added up
If you look at the table now we have more points and have climbed out of the relegation scrap to ninth, that’s what has changed


 

We've taken two points from the last five games and managed five shots on target. Be as patronising as you like, but that's as bad as any run under Koeman, and worse than Unsworth's five league games in charge. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

We've taken two points from the last five games and managed five shots on target. Be as patronising as you like, but that's as bad as any run under Koeman, and worse than Unsworth's five league games in charge. 

I agree it’s not good enough but people need to accept we are a poor side and they need to stop trying to rewrite history to make out Unsworth was anything other than disastrous

[Shukes]

53 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Show me a single fact that proves this

 

Points per game, Unsworth has a better stat. It’s black and white and you now that. But as Pad pointed out, it is on a much smaller game pool. Now if we’re gonna do the usual internet pedant... and point out that I actually said points earnt, then of course I’m wrong..... but that would also mean that Mike Walker wasn’t more points than Sam as well!

I’m not saying Unsworth would have kept it up, there’s no way of knowing. But to this date he has a better points per game than both Koeman and Sam. 3 of those points could have been down to Sam just sitting watching and the players wanting to prove themselves, as Bailey has rightly pointed out. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

It's individual errors every time. We are beating ourselves week in week out.
We have plays like Rooney who, on his day can be a match winner, is making silly mistakes. Just playing a simple pass to a midfielder too short and getting cut out.
We have Jagielka dashing out of the line to make a challenge and leaving everyone exposed.
Cuco isn'ttt good enough, he's playing on the wrong side and is just going through the motions most games.
Kenny is getting caught out every time he goes forward, as soon as he loses possession or goes to make a tackle and misses it he leaves us exposed for the opposition to romp into the box.
Sigurdsson cannot play wide left, he doesn't have the discipline to protect a vulnerable left back.
Our attack is gutless, Cenk has been brought in and looked to have a go, we need a genuine goal threat to dissuade the opposition from bombarding us.
Everyone else is injured.
Not a manager in the world can do much with that. Sam has played defensive football, he's had a go at some teams after criticism and we are still losing games.
Until we get the back 4 sorted with Premier League competitive full backs in play, until we can sort out that whole left side and until we can start threatening the opposition goal we are going to continue being in a world of hurt.

Totally agree , I have been saying all along that I don’t think any manager could get much out of this squad, they are totally unbalanced we have nothing down the left, Gylfi is not a winger and Coco is being asked to do a job week in week out that he simply isn’t capable of

People need to wake up and smell the coffee, if this squad was half as good as some make out Allardyce wouldn’t even be here and we wouldn’t be having this discussion

[Shukes]

19 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I agree it’s not good enough but people need to accept we are a poor side and they need to stop trying to rewrite history to make out Unsworth was anything other than disastrous



 

That’s the point tough Dunc.. we’re not, we’re just pointing out that Unsworths record wasn’t disastrous. 

No one could know how it would have turned out, all we can do is look at how he did and share our opinions on it. Yours and many others is that it would have turned out disastrous. Mine and many others think he should have been given more of a chance. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

That’s the point tough Dunc.. we’re not, we’re just pointing out that Unsworths record wasn’t disastrous. 
No one could know how it would have turned out, all we can do is look at how he did and share our opinions on it. Yours and many others is that it would have turned out disastrous. Mine and many others think he should have been given more of a chance. 

We will obviously never agree on this but Unsworth could not have asked for easier opposition for the 5 league games he was in charge of. We got played off the park in 3 if them , were heading the same way until the opposition keeper got injured in the forth and the new manager was already in place by the time the West Ham game came around

People say that the Europa League games didn’t matter but we got slaughtered in them and I’m pretty sure that would have had a detrimental effect on the players confidence not to mention putting them under more pressure

I just can’t see how any of that can be viewed as anything but disastrous

[Romey 1878]

To all those saying the Europa maulings don't count, would you be counting them if Unsworth had won them? I think you would.

[nogs]

48 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I agree it’s not good enough but people need to accept we are a poor side and they need to stop trying to rewrite history to make out Unsworth was anything other than disastrous



 

I agree entirely with the first point. We are a very, very poor side, I honestly don't get where the likes of Matt and London Blue are coming from trying to argue the players are good enough. There's just nothing to back that up with. 

I for one am not trying to rewrite history, I made no secret of the fact I wanted Unsworth to do well but I accepted the results and performances, especially versus Southampton, meant we couldn't carry on with him in charge. 

But on current form, we have made no progress under Allardyce. Ninth is a false position, a result of having one very good run for six games, and being in a very poor league by Prem standards. Let's say we only draw with West Brom and Leicester, Palace, West Ham, Huddersfield and Bournemouth could all overtake us and we're right back in the shit again. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I agree entirely with the first point. We are a very, very poor side, I honestly don't get where the likes of Matt and London Blue are coming from trying to argue the players are good enough. There's just nothing to back that up with. 
I for one am not trying to rewrite history, I made no secret of the fact I wanted Unsworth to do well but I accepted the results and performances, especially versus Southampton, meant we couldn't carry on with him in charge. 
But on current form, we have made no progress under Allardyce. Ninth is a false position, a result of having one very good run for six games, and being in a very poor league by Prem standards. Let's say we only draw with West Brom and Leicester, Palace, West Ham, Huddersfield and Bournemouth could all overtake us and we're right back in the shit again. 

I’m under no illusions there, if we lose on Saturday we will be right back in the middle of a relegation dog fight

That brings us to the question of who you would rather trust to get us out of it , Allardyce who is somewhat a specialist in that particular field, or Unsworth whose 5 games against sides who were also struggling at the time is less than impressive?

Allardyce’s remit this season is not to get us playing free flowing football it’s to keep us in the Premiership

[Shukes]

I think all three have not made enough of a change though. Again.. not saying Unsworth was foi g to get us top six, just that we are in the same position now as with him, we’re just playing even worse football.

We need big changes in the summer for me. Manager to start. A few players with bottle after that.

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I agree it’s not good enough but people need to accept we are a poor side and they need to stop trying to rewrite history to make out Unsworth was anything other than disastrous



 

No-one is trying to say it wasnt a disastrous spell but they are comparing it to what came before and after which was equally as disastrous. I think we have improved at the back but that is at the cost of our attack. We werent exactly free flowing under Unsy but we at least created something and that was on the back of playing 2 games a week which is something that seems to be forgotten about. 

 

I don't believe for 1 second that this squad isnt good enough to comfortably finish in the top half of the table. Look at some of the squads around, they are shocking. Everyone wrote of Palace saying how bad their side is yet look what Hodgson has done. Look at the quality at Burnley... there basically isn't any but they are drilled and work together. 

Our biggest problem is that we have too many individuals. Jags stepping 10 yards out of the line, Keane being shafted 1 v 1 and completely exposed, Bolasie trying to take his man on when a pass is on, Schneiderlin trying to turn under pressure in the middle of the park instead of laying it off. It doesn't help tat they are in a red out of the squad and feel they have to prove themselves instead of doing through basics.

Sam is yet another manager trying to sacrifice his philosophy to suppress the fans and maybe board. If he believes that sitting deep and defending all game is the way forward to get the points in then just do it. Use the workers not the show ponies and get the job done, no matter how ugly it is.

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

To all those saying the Europa maulings don't count, would you be counting them if Unsworth had won them? I think you would.

No, I wouldn't because the games were irrelevant results wise. The only thing that they would've been good for was building momentum and morale, but 90% of people wanted them fucked off to concentrate on the league, which was what happened anyway.

[Hafnia]

We have lost the leader in midfield in Gareth Barry. Schneiderlein is a wet lettuce. Gueye needs guidance.  

The defence is either too old or inexperienced.

Manager is a dinosaur. 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

I’m under no illusions there, if we lose on Saturday we will be right back in the middle of a relegation dog fight

That brings us to the question of who you would rather trust to get us out of it , Allardyce who is somewhat a specialist in that particular field, or Unsworth whose 5 games against sides who were also struggling at the time is less than impressive?

Allardyce’s remit this season is not to get us playing free flowing football it’s to keep us in the Premiership

 

 

To be honest I don't think the question of who is in charge matters. It's Allardyce whether we like it or not. The club's problems are far bigger and will take a lot longer to sort out than where we finish in May. At the moment I have zero faith that we will make the right decisions in the summer to see any improvement next season. 

[Shukes]

I think we have a squad good enough for the top 8. Maybe a couple of additions to get it right.

I think the bigger issue is instilling some confidence in these players. Sigurdson.. 45m and treats the ball like a hot potatoe. Morgan... same again. There’s only Rooney that is ok receiving the ball, and he generally holds on for too long. Getting the boys to receive and look up would go a long way to changing our fortunes around.

[markjazzbassist]

looking more and more like unsworth had finally bailed out the sinking ship and got us solid, once sam had been here a minute it went back to sinking.  i don't think for one minute that west ham battering and the couple decent matches after had anything to do with sam, same team unsy picked and once he started tinkering we started dropping points.  sam at fault.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

looking more and more like unsworth had finally bailed out the sinking ship and got us solid, once sam had been here a minute it went back to sinking.  i don't think for one minute that west ham battering and the couple decent matches after had anything to do with sam, same team unsy picked and once he started tinkering we started dropping points.  sam at fault.

If you can’t see the difference in how the back four were setup and how they were told to play then this a pointless discussion to be honest