At what point do we say we are in a relegation dogfight?

[Newty82]

15 hours ago, Bailey said:

 

Now please can we find something else meaningless to argue about!

That should be easy!!!

[Newty82]

16 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Usually once a team is over the 40 point mark

 

Let's hope we get there quicker than 13 or 14 other teams then!!!

[Hafnia]

I just think people have short memories.

Quite honestly we were getting the points we got without deserving them. Niasse more or less got us a few on his own in spite of shit team performances. 

I was very damning of Koeman- rightly so. The man was a disgrace in his attitude and application.  But the players were culpable to a degree - schneiderlin, Williams, Baines, jags.... where was the leadership??

It's been fine margins that have got us where we are bar a couple of games.  Lets not lose sight of that fact. 

Trevor Steven before big sam came said that you look for that bit of luck or spark in a team..... he just didn't see it with ours and neither did I.

Many ex players were hugely concerned and whilst we aren't on red alert I would honestly say let's get to the january window and sort the team out. 

[Palfy]

7 minutes ago, hafnia said:

I just think people have short memories.

Quite honestly we were getting the points we got without deserving them. Niasse more or less got us a few on his own in spite of shit team performances. 

I was very damning of Koeman- rightly so. The man was a disgrace in his attitude and application.  But the players were culpable to a degree - schneiderlin, Williams, Baines, jags.... where was the leadership??

It's been fine margins that have got us where we are bar a couple of games.  Lets not lose sight of that fact. 

Trevor Steven before big sam came said that you look for that bit of luck or spark in a team..... he just didn't see it with ours and neither did I.

Many ex players were hugely concerned and whilst we aren't on red alert I would honestly say let's get to the january window and sort the team out. 

So what are you saying we are in a relegation dogfight or we aren't, I'm not sure which way you are leaning towards with your post or if you are sitting on the fence.

[Cornish Steve]

The last thing we need as we recover from the Koeman debacle is the distraction of the Europa league. Let’s rebuild with younger players and re-establish ourselves first in the Premier League. 

[Hafnia]

Have a read through page 1.... dated 26th November.  

Amazing what a few wins has done but at the time I genuinely feared for our status. As did a fair few others.

Paddock made the stat that no one had conceded 28 goals in 13 games and stayed up.  Looks like we may be the first club to do so.

Back to the drawing board though - big time. 

 

[Matt]

14 hours ago, hafnia said:

Have a read through page 1.... dated 26th November.  

Amazing what a few wins has done but at the time I genuinely feared for our status. As did a fair few others.

Paddock made the stat that no one had conceded 28 goals in 13 games and stayed up.  Looks like we may be the first club to do so.

Back to the drawing board though - big time. 

 

Wasn’t his stat corrected?

[Bill]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

Wasn’t his stat corrected?

Not sure but on the same page I said that efc would add it to their many "firsts".

[Hafnia]

On 22/12/2017 at 17:53, hafnia said:

I just think people have short memories.

Quite honestly we were getting the points we got without deserving them. Niasse more or less got us a few on his own in spite of shit team performances. 

I was very damning of Koeman- rightly so. The man was a disgrace in his attitude and application.  But the players were culpable to a degree - schneiderlin, Williams, Baines, jags.... where was the leadership??

It's been fine margins that have got us where we are bar a couple of games.  Lets not lose sight of that fact. 

Trevor Steven before big sam came said that you look for that bit of luck or spark in a team..... he just didn't see it with ours and neither did I.

Many ex players were hugely concerned and whilst we aren't on red alert I would honestly say let's get to the january window and sort the team out. 

As I was saying....

[nogs]

Form in the last five games is back to being extremely worrying. Sam's refusal to even contemplate attacking football could end up being disastrous because suddenly we look shit at the back again. 5 shots on target in 5 games is it? Jesus wept. 

[Hafnia]

26 minutes ago, nogs said:

Form in the last five games is back to being extremely worrying. Sam's refusal to even contemplate attacking football could end up being disastrous because suddenly we look shit at the back again. 5 shots on target in 5 games is it? Jesus wept. 

What's as worrying is that fans seem to think a shite team can suddenly become very good. 

The expensive car we built has broken down on the motorway.... we've patched the fanbelt up with a pair of tights and we have a bloke driving it at 20mph for the next 100 miles.  Let' just get to the destination and take a sledgehammer to the fuckin thing and start over again. 

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

What's as worrying is that fans seem to think a shite team can suddenly become very good. 
The expensive car we built has broken down on the motorway.... we've patched the fanbelt up with a pair of tights and we have a bloke driving it at 20mph for the next 100 miles.  Let' just get to the destination and take a sledgehammer to the fuckin thing and start over again. 
 

Good analogy

IMO we have come unstuck again precisely because Allardyce has tried to make us more of a threat going forward

We just aren’t good enough

[Matt]

53 minutes ago, hafnia said:

What's as worrying is that fans seem to think a shite team can suddenly become very good. 

The expensive car we built has broken down on the motorway.... we've patched the fanbelt up with a pair of tights and we have a bloke driving it at 20mph for the next 100 miles.  Let' just get to the destination and take a sledgehammer to the fuckin thing and start over again. 

 

I said it before, but the team isn'tt shit - the manager and tactics are, and the morale has suffered greatly. 

3 weeks to go before I get really worried

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I said it before, but the team isn'ttt shit - the manager and tactics are, and the morale has suffered greatly. 
3 weeks to go before I get really worried

Matt we have tried 3 different managers with this squad and none of them can get anything out of them, it goes beyond the manager and tactics

[Newty82]

Trim the squad and have a core focus of players.

Get rid of passengers.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Matt we have tried 3 different managers with this squad and none of them can get anything out of them, it goes beyond the manager and tactics
 

 

Well 2 really, Unsworth was hardly given the chance. I'm not saying the squad doesn't need improvement, of course it does. I'm saying that the manager, his approach and tactics, and the mental state of the squad are more of the issue than the abilities of the players

[nogs]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Good analogy

IMO we have come unstuck again precisely because Allardyce has tried to make us more of a threat going forward

We just aren’t good enough
 

I just posted this in the other thread but the team he put out at Bournemouth was far from trying to be adventurous and we were utter crap then too. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Well 2 really, Unsworth was hardly given the chance. I'm not saying the squad doesn't need improvement, of course it does. I'm saying that the manager, his approach and tactics, and the mental state of the squad are more of the issue than the abilities of the players

We will have to agree to disagree on both Unsworth and the current state of the squad.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

We will have to agree to disagree on both Unsworth and the current state of the squad.



 

You think he was given a fair chance?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

You think he was given a fair chance?

Yes I do, things were going from bad to worse under him, he looked completely out of his depth

[MC11]

We would have went straight down under Unsworth. He was given more than enough time. Quite frankly he had his chance and blew it massively. Didn't even get the expected boost of wins when he took over. 

Allardyce is an awful appointment 

[Matt]

3 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Yes I do, things were going from bad to worse under him, he looked completely out of his depth

 

Then we’ll never agree. He had barely any time to undo 18 months of cluster fuck without any real support from the hierarchy and a team devoid of self belief. 

He was given 5 league matches (cup ones I’m not counting because EL was already over and the league cup was 1 day into the job) in which he got 7 from 15. Not great but it was getting better, Southampton result aside. 

Things have only gone from bad to worse since Allardyce got comfortable, and he’s had backing. 

[Cornish Steve]

6 hours ago, Matt said:

Well 2 really, Unsworth was hardly given the chance. I'm not saying the squad doesn't need improvement, of course it does. I'm saying that the manager, his approach and tactics, and the mental state of the squad are more of the issue than the abilities of the players

Unsworth now has the best record of the three, and he's the only one to have increased our goal production. I really don't understand why he wasn't given a fair crack of the whip. To me, it looked like he was beginning to turn things around.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Then we’ll never agree. He had barely any time to undo 18 months of cluster fuck without any real support from the hierarchy and a team devoid of self belief. 
He was given 5 league matches (cup ones I’m not counting because EL was already over and the league cup was 1 day into the job) in which he got 7 from 15. Not great but it was getting better, Southampton result aside. 
Things have only gone from bad to worse since Allardyce got comfortable, and he’s had backing. 

In what way has he had backing ?

I love Unsworth and I would have loved it to have worked out for him but he looked totally out of his depth

How long would you have given him?

Under Unsy we were playing like we did on Saturday every game and we were plummeting towards the bottom of the table rapidly

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

In what way has he had backing ?

I love Unsworth and I would have loved it to have worked out for him but he looked totally out of his depth

How long would you have given him?

Under Unsy we were playing like we did on Saturday every game and we were plummeting towards the bottom of the table rapidly

 

A full term, albeit (thankfully) short contract, Unsworth had to work for 4 weeks not knowing if he’d have the job the next day. That undermined him and created further instability at a time that the club needed unity, for 4-5 weeks. Allardyce knows he’s got until the end of the season no matter what. 

I would’ve told him him until the of the season, whilst looking for a proper replacement. If after the January transfer window he wasn’t maintaining his 50% points ratio, then I’d probably have made the change regardless. But he would’ve know he had backing and time to turn things around.

It wasn’t every game that we looked shit either. Watford and West Ham were exciting games which we won. Granted, the Watford game wasn’t the way I’d want to win, but we won anyway. The Europa spankings were irrelevant, the only real negative performance of note, and it was horrible to watch, was Southampton. We have looked shit under every game Allardyce has been in charge off and he’s already stating that he makes it deliberately worse. If Unsworth was taking us down, then we’re already fucked with this clown of a manager, who has had more time and a lot more support. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Unsworth now has the best record of the three, and he's the only one to have increased our goal production. I really don't understand why he wasn't given a fair crack of the whip. To me, it looked like he was beginning to turn things around.

Why do you think he was turning things around?

We lost 2-0 away to a struggling Leicester , we were getting comfortably beaten by Watford until the keeper let us back in then made really poor Palace and Southampton sides look like Barcelona and Real Madrid

That’s not to mention the embarrassing Europa fiasco

By the time we beat a struggling West Ham Allardyce had already been appointed

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

A full term, albeit (thankfully) short contract, Unsworth had to work for 4 weeks not knowing if he’d have the job the next day. That undermined him and created further instability at a time that the club needed unity, for 4-5 weeks. Allardyce knows he’s got until the end of the season no matter what. 
I would’ve told him him until the of the season, whilst looking for a proper replacement. If after the January transfer window he wasn’t maintaining his 50% points ratio, then I’d probably have made the change regardless. But he would’ve know he had backing and time to turn things around.
It wasn’t every game that we looked shit either. Watford and West Ham were exciting games which we won. Granted, the Watford game wasn’t the way I’d want to win, but we won anyway. The Europa spankings were irrelevant, the only real negative performance of note, and it was horrible to watch, was Southampton. We have looked shit under every game Allardyce has been in charge off and he’s already stating that he makes it deliberately worse. If Unsworth was taking us down, then we’re already fucked with this clown of a manager, who has had more time and a lot more support. 

We got lucky against Watford, until Gomes had to go off injured it was looking like another embarrassing hiding

Every game bar the West Ham and Chelsea away we were every bit as shite as we were on Saturday and as I say by the West Ham game Allardyce has already been appointed

I really am struggling to understand what you mean by Allardyce has had a lot more support , he has had exactly the same squad Unsworth had

I get your point that he wasn’t the permanent manager so it may have caused some instability but other than that what is his extra support your talking about?

[Bailey]

32 minutes ago, Matt said:

A full term, albeit (thankfully) short contract, Unsworth had to work for 4 weeks not knowing if he’d have the job the next day. That undermined him and created further instability at a time that the club needed unity, for 4-5 weeks. Allardyce knows he’s got until the end of the season no matter what. 

I would’ve told him him until the of the season, whilst looking for a proper replacement. If after the January transfer window he wasn’t maintaining his 50% points ratio, then I’d probably have made the change regardless. But he would’ve know he had backing and time to turn things around.

It wasn’t every game that we looked shit either. Watford and West Ham were exciting games which we won. Granted, the Watford game wasn’t the way I’d want to win, but we won anyway. The Europa spankings were irrelevant, the only real negative performance of note, and it was horrible to watch, was Southampton. We have looked shit under every game Allardyce has been in charge off and he’s already stating that he makes it deliberately worse. If Unsworth was taking us down, then we’re already fucked with this clown of a manager, who has had more time and a lot more support. 

The key point is in the first paragraph and that is the big difference between his time in charge and Allardyce's. 

Too many of the players had little respect for Unsworth's authority because they knew he wasn't going to be in charge. It was only when they knew someone was coming in that they bucked their ideas up, which considering there was no difference in the tactics, tells you everything you need to know. 

I didn't necessarily see anything from Unsy to suggest he would have been anything special but I never saw it from Koeman either and I sure haven't seen it from Allardyce. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

The key point is in the first paragraph and that is the big difference between his time in charge and Allardyce's. 
Too many of the players had little respect for Unsworth's authority because they knew he wasn't going to be in charge. It was only when they knew someone was coming in that they bucked their ideas up, which considering there was no difference in the tactics, tells you everything you need to know. 
I didn't necessarily see anything from Unsy to suggest he would have been anything special but I never saw it from Koeman either and I sure haven't seen it from Allardyce. 

There was a definite change in tactics the moment Allardyce walked through the door , you only have to look at the difference in Keane and Williams to see that

Listen I’m not for one minute saying I want Allardyce here long term but I do firmly believe he is a necessary evil. First and foremost we need to start next season as a Premiership side and IMO , like his brand of football or not, he is the most likely man to achieve that

[Bailey]

33 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

There was a definite change in tactics the moment Allardyce walked through the door , you only have to look at the difference in Keane and Williams to see that

Listen I’m not for one minute saying I want Allardyce here long term but I do firmly believe he is a necessary evil. First and foremost we need to start next season as a Premiership side and IMO , like his brand of football or not, he is the most likely man to achieve that

 

I was referring to the West Ham game. There was no change in tactics for that game, hence no reason for the performance to suddenly improve other than the psychological effects of knowing who was going to be in charge permanently.