Guest John Burns Posted July 8, 2018 Report Share Posted July 8, 2018 The club last month agreed a 200-year lease on the waterfront site with the owners Peel Land and Property Limited, conditional on planning consent and securing funding for the construction. Funding and planning permission are expected to be in place in early 2018, along with publication of the stadium designs by Meis Architects - The Guardian, 31.12.2017 No binding contract. Have to get PP - not assured. No funding. No stadium design released. Project has stalled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 8, 2018 Report Share Posted July 8, 2018 2 hours ago, John Burns said: The Echo? Wow! Also from Jan 2017. Since then it has transpired a stadium not fit for purpose can only be built on the dock. Where did you hear this John? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 10 hours ago, John Burns said: The project has stalled. Fact. Fact is when something has been proven true. All if us on here have no idea about this stalling. We also have no idea about the docks suddenly not bring big enough for a fit for purpose stadium. Please can you share the info you have with Us? Where did you find out that the project has stalled? How much space do we need for this stadium? How much does the docks fall short by? Maybe John has me blocked as he can't seem to see these questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 6 hours ago, Newty82 said: All if us on here have no idea about this stalling. Again for you. Look at the underlines .... and the date..... The club last month agreed a 200-year lease on the waterfront site with the owners Peel Land and Property Limited, conditional on planning consent and securing funding for the construction. Funding and planning permission are expected to be in place in early 2018, along with publication of the stadium designs by Meis Architects - The Guardian, 31.12.2017 No binding land/lease contract. Have to get PP - not assured. No funding. No stadium design released. No planning application applied for. Project has stalled, as it is 6 months since Everton were to announce the whole circus coming to town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 The thread title is .. Stadium - All ifs, buts and maybes... How apt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 25 minutes ago, John Burns said: Again for you. Look at the underlines .... and the date..... The club last month agreed a 200-year lease on the waterfront site with the owners Peel Land and Property Limited, conditional on planning consent and securing funding for the construction. Funding and planning permission are expected to be in place in early 2018, along with publication of the stadium designs by Meis Architects - The Guardian, 31.12.2017 No binding land/lease contract. Have to get PP - not assured. No funding. No stadium design released. Project has stalled, as it is 6 months since Everton were to announce the whole circus coming to town. Some of the stadium design was released in April this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 John, in my job I deal in facts and evidence, now this is genuinely not ment to be disrespectful, but exactly what facts and evidence do you have that this has stalled. Please bare in mind the reports that were given at the AGM and after the boardroom reshuffle. StevO and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, John Burns said: Again for you. Look at the underlines .... and the date..... The club last month agreed a 200-year lease on the waterfront site with the owners Peel Land and Property Limited, conditional on planning consent and securing funding for the construction. Funding and planning permission are expected to be in place in early 2018, along with publication of the stadium designs by Meis Architects - The Guardian, 31.12.2017 No binding land/lease contract. Have to get PP - not assured. No funding. No stadium design released. Project has stalled, as it is 6 months since Everton were to announce the whole circus coming to town. The timelines here are a newspapers guess with no quotes from anyone within the club. Therefore not fact. To stall means that the project has stopped. A newspaper article from December with its own speculated timeline is not fact nor does it prove anything. Everton as a club did not say it would announce anything by 6 months ago. What we do know is that stadium designs are on going, the designer is quite open about this with fans. We can speculate on where funds are coming from etc. That's fair enough. But we can't pass our own thoughts off as fact. I think this is a huge complicated project and we cannot expect weekly announcements. Things will be moving along behind the scenes, but there are many issues to sooth over. Furthermore John, earlier you stated that the docks are too small. I've asked several times, and you keep swerving, how much space do the docks provide? And how much space do we need? If you don't know, why not just say you don't know?! I don't get it. Matt and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 Meis hinted at some parts of a design in a broad brush fashion soliciting fan feedback - he did a presentation at St.Luke's. He greatly emphasised that it will not be 60-62,000 capacity making a concerted effort to convince fans that a smaller stadium is the way, even mentioning 52,000 at one point. Most fans were not having it, seeing LFC can run up to 60,000 as can Man City and Spurs will be 62,000 with Arsenal at 60,000. No complete stadium design has been announced, if you know of one please direct us to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Newty82 said: To stall means that the project has stopped. No it means it has halted, not stopped. It has clearly halted with no progress whatsoever for 6 months. The project is still open but halted - in short, stalled. Unless you can point to us some progress of course. Wild opinions do not count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, Newty82 said: The timelines here are a newspapers guess with no quotes from anyone within the club. Therefore not fact. To stall means that the project has stopped. A newspaper article from December with its own speculated timeline is not fact nor does it prove anything. Everton as a club did not say it would announce anything by 6 months ago. What we do know is that stadium designs are on going, the designer is quite open about this with fans. We can speculate on where funds are coming from etc. That's fair enough. But we can't pass our own thoughts off as fact. I think this is a huge complicated project and we cannot expect weekly announcements. Things will be moving along behind the scenes, but there are many issues to sooth over. Furthermore John, earlier you stated that the docks are too small. I've asked several times, and you keep swerving, how much space do the docks provide? And how much space do we need? If you don't know, why not just say you don't know?! I don't get it. Stall means delayed to me, and that might well be the case considering the complexities involved. Although, there is zero evidence to suggest either way, so the entire discussion is still just speculation (no matter how much bold, italics or underlining John uses) 3 minutes ago, John Burns said: No it means it has halted, not stopped. It has clearly halted with no progress whatsoever for 6 months. The project is still open but halted - in short, stalled. Unless you can point to us some progress of course. Wild opinions do not count. Talking of wild opinions, where do you get this "no progress whatsoever" from? Because it's not gotten coverage in a shitty local paper? Or are you actually a stakeholder in the program / project with intimate knowledge of the scope, critical path, risk analysis, etc. that you're not telling us about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, London Blue said: but exactly what facts and evidence do you have that this has stalled. Read my post a few back with the bullet points on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 With a big project like this, with mega implications for the future of the club, it is going to take time. The club aren"t going to give daily updates, they are going to get on with the job. There is no point in speculating (guessing) just because the club are silent. John, how do you know there has been no progress for 6 months? ie no work at all on the design of the stadium, the infrastructure, the contracts, the finance. Perhaps you could stop beating about the bush and give a clear answer to our questions. Romey 1878 and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Matt said: Stall means delayed to me, and that might well be the case That is the case. There has also been no progress. No announcements when the club told the press there would be. The Guardian triple check sources and facts BTW. They are not the Echo. If you can direct us to any progress within the past 6 months then please do. The whole project is being reassessed with cancellation of the BMD site and selection of another site a very strong possibility. In effect the project is continuing but being redirected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 minute ago, John Burns said: Read my post a few back with the bullet points on it. As much as I don't want to be, I'm actually with you on those bullet points. Those bits are fact, but your conclusion is just an opinion. However, since you've no idea on what the timeline of the project actually is, you cannot claim "stalled" as fact (again, unless you're part of all the discussions going on). Just now, John Burns said: That is the case. There has also been no progress. If you can direct us to any progress within the past 6 months then please do. The whole project is being reassessed with cancellation and selection of another site a very strong possibility. " If you can direct us to any progress within the past 6 months then please do" - You're the one putting forth an argument, you provide the link to the evidence. I can't, since I'm not working on the project. Can you? Also, my lack of evidence is not proof for your argument either. Underlining things or putting them in bold etc. also doesn't make your statements any more than speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 Dear John.... https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2018/5/12/17347536/everton-new-stadium-bramley-moore-docks-dan-meis-fan-surveys-april-sketches-designs-promised-elstone To be fair, the defination of 'stall' is to stop or to stop making progress (so we are all correct!). To 'halt' is to bring or come to an abrupt stop. So to say 'No it has halted not stopped...' is a bit contradicting. Haha...what a funny old passage of posts. Still answered the questions about space though.... Bailey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 The best way to get rid of this nuisance is don't give him any replies, he'll soon get fed up talking to himself. Newty82 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Matt said: As much as I don't want to be, I'm actually with you on those bullet points. Those bits are fact, but your conclusion is just an opinion. Yes the bullet points are facts. Simple for anyone to see. I never made them up. My conclusion is based on information and analysis. That is as much as you will get from me. It may mean Everton continue and move to BMD, or it may mean a new site selected. The facts are that the project has stalled - fact. Reassessment is going on and that you will have to go with me on. In large projects when they stall at the initial stage, there is always reassessment to pull out altogether or redirect, scale up or scale down. That is how it works in large construction projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, John Burns said: Yes the bullet points are facts. Simple for anyone to see. I never made them up. My conclusion is based on information and analysis. That is as much as you will get from me. It may mean Everton continue and move to BMD, or it may mean a new site selected. The facts are that the project has stalled - fact. Reassessment is going on and that you will have to go with me on. In large projects when they stall at the initial stage, there is always reassessment to pull out altogether or redirect, scale up or scale down. That is how it works in large construction projects. And is still an opinion, a logical one too, but still not fact. I agree with the rest of the first paragraph. No, it's still an opinion, I'm not going to "go with you" unless you've got proof. Have you proof of the official program timeline, critical path and other things I mentioned? If not, it's a logical opinion you've settled on. The rest of it I also agree with you on and know it to be true after 12 years of project & program management in I.T and construction programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, Matt said: No, it's still an opinion, I'm not going to "go with you" unless you've got proof. Have you proof of the official program timeline, critical path and other things I mentioned? If not, it's a logical opinion you've settled on. The rest of it I also agree with you on and know it to be true after 12 years of project & program management in I.T and construction programs. You should know then be a PM. Analysis of facts and a conclusion based on logic ultimately is a very, very, weak opinion, but one which holds sway needing attention, not wild speculation. All I have done is present obvious facts. You can all see for yourselves once made aware of them. They stick out like a sore thumb. The rest you will have to go with me. They are assessing all points of the project and what they mean to the long term interests of the club. As they have not spent much money at all it is wise to do so at this point before they may be past the point of no return, very wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 Everton's plans for incredible home end at new stadium revealed ...https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com › ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 18 hours ago, John Burns said: The Echo? Wow! Also from Jan 2017. Since then it has transpired a stadium not fit for purpose can only be built on the dock. So are you claiming the site has shrunk since Jan 2017? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, London Blue said: Everton's plans for incredible home end at new stadium revealed ...https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com › ... That was April 3rd when Meis was soliciting feedback from fans at St.Lukes. No stadium design has been announced - fact. No planning application has been applied for. I never made that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 minute ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said: So are you claiming the site has shrunk since Jan 2017? Read back, as I would be just repeating myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, John Burns said: You should know then be a PM. Analysis of facts and a conclusion based on logic is a very, very, weak opinion, but one which holds sway needing attention, not wild speculation. All I have done is present obvious facts. You can all see for yourselves once made aware of them. They stick out like a sore thumb. The rest you will have to go with me. They are assessing all points of the project and what they mean to the long term interests of the club. As they have not spent much money at all it is wise to do so at this point before they may be past the point of no return, very wise. But the few facts you've shared are not enough to go on without more detail behind them, so it is still speculation. Again, logical, but you can't keep claiming "fact" of the project stalling without knowing more details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Matt said: But the few facts you've shared are not enough to on without more detail behind them, so it is still speculation. Again, logical, but you can't keep claiming "fact" of the project stalling without knowing more details. The facts I presented were strong and clear. The project is an Everton stadium, sub-project BMD. Facts are that there is no progress on any point on BMD, that is clear I never made it up, it is clear for all to see. Reassessment is going on, and that means all is on the table, moving to another site is on the table, as is options for finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 Just now, John Burns said: The facts I presented were strong and clear. The project is an Everton stadium, sub-project BMD. Facts are that there is no progress on any point on BMD, that is clear I never made it up. Reassessment is going on, and that means all is on the table, moving to another site is one. You do not know there's no progress, only that nothing has been announced publicly. Two very different things. If I was the PM, I'd not pay attention to those facts without some substance and explanation behind it. They're headlines to put on a PPT, not explanatory of the current status of progress. Again, I understand where you're coming from this time, even if I still think the way you present your points isn'tt the best, and acknowledge you do have some legitimate concerns. But without evidence past the headlines, it's still just speculation. Justified, but still speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Matt said: You do not know there's no progress, only that nothing has been announced publicly. Two very different things. There is no progress. Point us to some. The dates they told the press just never happened, not delayed, just never happened. The club have hardly even drip fed some relevant information to settle matters. If I was a PM I would be greatly concerned at no progress, especially on the funding and PP fronts. Those points are alarm lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, John Burns said: There is no progress. Point us to some. The dates they told the press just never happened, not delayed, just never happened. The club have hardly even drip fed some relevant information to settle matters. I already told you I cannot, just as you can only summarize that there's no progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Newty82 said: Dear John.... https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2018/5/12/17347536/everton-new-stadium-bramley-moore-docks-dan-meis-fan-surveys-april-sketches-designs-promised-elstone To be fair, the defination of 'stall' is to stop or to stop making progress (so we are all correct!). To 'halt' is to bring or come to an abrupt stop. So to say 'No it has halted not stopped...' is a bit contradicting. Haha...what a funny old passage of posts. Still answered the questions about space though.... I was about to post the same. Therefore some plans have been announced in early 2018 just as they said they would so there hasnt really been a stall, halt or anything else at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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