Blue Bill's shiny new stadium at the docks...

[Bailey]

Actually maybe JB is on to something. The transfer window opened last month, we have made no signings not even an announcement of an intention to sign any players. We would have expected to make moves by now and nothing has happened. Maybe we aren't going to sign anyone at all this window?! 

[Guest John Burns]

1 minute ago, Bailey said:

Therefore some plans have been announced in early 2018 just as they said they would so there hasnt really been a stall, halt or anything else at all!

Will you show us all the announcement of the design? Will you show us all the planning application number? All applications are online. The club did announce a reassessment of the funding package looking at different options, which is clearly a delay.

[Matt]

14 minutes ago, John Burns said:

Will you show us all the announcement of the design? Will you show us all the planning application number? All applications are online. The club did announce a reassessment of the funding package looking at different options, which is clearly a delay.

No, it's part of the early stages of establishing a program kick-off and most likely part of the overall timeline of the program. It means they're investigating more options which is progress. This is just standard behaviour.

Regarding plans - I think John is referring to a final draft, which has not been shared. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. That said, considering it would be something to share and get the fans excited with, it's unlikely there is a clear design yet. Sketchs and reassurance from the architect are one thing, blueprints are another. I think it's a matter of pedantry here...

[Guest John Burns]

I am sure Meis has a final draft, which the club is reassessing. If it was the one they are going with a planning application would have been submitted with accompanying fanfare.  Nothing on that front. Nothing is happening to progress the BMD project. 

[Matt]

Just now, John Burns said:

I am sure Meis has a final draft, which the club is reassessing. If it was the one they are going with a planning application would have been submitted with accompanying fanfare.  Nothing on that front. 

I imagine he has a few, it'd be unusual to go with one proposal and say "it's this or nothing". Planning application won't be submitted until 100% of the funding is secured, so hearing nothing is nothing out of the ordinary process. Doesn't mean there's no progress either. 

[Guest John Burns]

Planning can go though at any time and regularity does. It will be lengthy for such a large construction and sensitive site. So to speed matters up the application is submitted while funding is being sought.  You can even apply for planning permission on land you do not own, with the landowner not even notified, which does happen regularly. In short, you can draw up plans for the Liver Buildings to build a 50 floor block or whatever, not notifying the owner, Moshiri, and submit an application. 

[Matt]

14 minutes ago, John Burns said:

Planning can go though at any time and regularity does. It will be lengthy for such a large construction and sensitive site. So to speed matters up the application is submitted while funding is being sought.  You can even apply for planning permission on land you do not own, with the landowner not even notified, which does happen regularly. In short, you can draw up plans for the Liver Buildings to build a 50 floor block or whatever, not notifying the owner, Moshiri, and submit an application. 

I'll trust you on that, but the club statement mentions  "conditional on planning consent and securing funding for the construction", so I understood it as them both being finalised before the project gets the green light at the next decision gate before we hear anything. 

[Bailey]

52 minutes ago, John Burns said:

Will you show us all the announcement of the design? Will you show us all the planning application number? All applications are online. The club did announce a reassessment of the funding package looking at different options, which is clearly a delay.

I haven't seen or read anything that says when a final design etc will be released by any of the stakeholders in the project. Designs were expected be shared and they have been, in keeping with when they said they would be. They are developments in the project which were released less than 3 months ago. You are saying that nothing has happened for 6 months which clearly isnt the case. That is fact. 

This will be a complicated project and it will take time to deliver. 

 

[Cornish Steve]

Stall? Halt? Stop?What about running out of steam?

the only fact I can see is that no one really knows and it’s foolish at this point to speculate. 

[rubecula]

1 hour ago, John Burns said:

The facts I presented were strong and clear. 

No sorry John but they were not

 

[Bailey]

5 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'll trust you on that, but the club statement mentions  "conditional on planning consent and securing funding for the construction", so I understood it as them both being finalised before the project gets the green light at the next decision gate before we hear anything. 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200126/applications/59/how_to_apply/6

It also mentions proof of ownership and full details of access which will be a massive area for planning consent which again will take time. 

Add into the fact that as is clear the funding structure is being considered it would seem to me that there is a lot going on behind the scenes to make sure we get this project right.

[London Blue]

1 hour ago, John Burns said:

That was April 3rd when Meis was soliciting feedback from fans at St.Lukes.  No stadium design has been announced - fact.  No planning application has been applied for.  I never made that up. 

Stadium design ideas have been produced.

You are correct in that no application has yet been submitted, but given the Mayor's desire for it to happen as part of wider regeneration, I would suggest that planning application will be relatively straight forward. 

I would also say that given we have a new board, manager and DOF  the focus has been on getting the team right, I expect announcements about the stadium in September.

[Guest John Burns]

11 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I haven't seen or read anything that says when a final design

The told the national press of ballpark dates who published them, nothing happened. All that has happened is:

• The club said it signed an agreement with an option to buy a lease, not buying anything;
• Meis has solicited fan feedback, while not announcing a final design(s);
• The club is reassessing funding.

Nothing else.

[Guest John Burns]

London Blue, all speculation on your part. We can all guess, but ultimately it is meaningless. 

[rubecula]

3 minutes ago, John Burns said:

The told the national press of ballpark dates who published them, nothing happened. All that has happened is:

• The club said it signed an agreement with an option to buy a lease, not buying anything;
• Meis has solicited fan feedback, while not announcing a final design(s);
• The club is reassessing funding.

Nothing else.

and from this you say it is a fact that the entire project has been halted?

[Guest John Burns]

10 minutes ago, Bailey said:

It also mentions proof of ownership

It does not mean those who apply have to own the land. Show them proof who owns it they are asking, mainly so they can be notified of any application, as will the neighbours.  For e.g., a foreign interest may own the land, the planning authority needs to know.  Everton have an agreement to purchase a lease, and not own the land or lease and will be submitting an application.  You do not need a lease or own the land to apply. 

[rubecula]

1 minute ago, John Burns said:

London Blue, all speculation on your part. We can all guess, but ultimately it is meaningless. 

if it is all speculation why do you keep insisting on calling it a FACT when you make an post and call it anything but a fact when it is posted by somebody with a different viewpoint.  I am not part of the grammar police but if you like to have friends you should allow you older and wiser colleagues a little bit of leeway as most are highly intelligent people, even when the posts are wrong they generally put together a much better argument that you calling everything a FACT and not answering questions.

[Guest John Burns]

7 minutes ago, rubecula said:

and from this you say it is a fact that the entire project has been halted?

Read back on the thread.  It will be clearer for you then. 

[MikeO]

2 hours ago, John Burns said:

No it means it has halted, not stopped.

Can you please explain the difference? If I consult my thesaurus it says that a synonym of "halt" is "stop"; and surprisingly a synonym of "stop" is "halt".

Can you cease and desist with all this conjecture John, because conjecture is all it is no matter how many times you call it fact and instruct people to read your posts again. Personally I think you need a hobby.

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, rubecula said:

No sorry John but they were not

I kinda get it.

• No binding land/lease contract.
  • There's an agreement in place dependent on planning permission and finances being sorted. So for now, there's only an agreement (formalised in a contract I assume), until the 2 conditions are met. Seems more of a formality for me, but technically a correct statement of the current situation
• Have to get PP - not assured.
  • As I understood it, it's underway but dependent on finances being secured which is also not finalized. So planning permission is not yet assured as discussions are not yet finished. As discussions are clearly on going, it's far from stalled. So again, technically correct.
• No funding.
  • Again, nothing is finalized so there is no funding guaranteed in place. But, there are ideas and discussions on how to get the funding sorted. Technically, pedantically, no funding is currently in place, but that doesn't mean there isn'tt progress to get it sorted.
• No stadium design released. 
  • There are no designs yet, to the level of blueprints, only sketches and reassurances from the architect. 

So, yes, John has reason for concern but to claim it's stalled is a massive overstatement in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm tired and hungry, so who know's if I'm making sense anymore  

[rubecula]

/

1 minute ago, John Burns said:

Read back on the thread.

so you are saying that then

[rubecula]

yeah I need to eat too

 

[Guest John Burns]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

I kinda get it.

• No binding land/lease contract.
  • There's an agreement in place dependent on planning permission and finances being sorted. So for now, there's only an agreement (formalised in a contract I assume), until the 2 conditions are met. Seems more of a formality for me, but technically a correct statement of the current situation
  • Yes just a formality. Only costs are lawyers costs to draught it. 
• Have to get PP - not assured.
  • As I understood it, it's underway but dependent on finances being secured which is also not finalized. So planning permission is not yet assured as discussions are not yet finished. As discussions are clearly on going, it's far from stalled. So again, technically correct.
  • No application has been submitted - fact. Even if it is, it is not guaranteed, look at Kirkby. Even if it is approved it will be a lengthy process on a sensitive World Heritage Site. All points under reconsideration.
• No funding.
  • Again, nothing is finalized so there is no funding guaranteed in place. But, there are ideas and discussions on how to get the funding sorted. Technically, pedantically, no funding is currently in place, but that doesn't mean there isn'ttt progress to get it sorted.
  • Still no funding agreement. 
• No stadium design released. 
  • There are no designs yet, to the level of blueprints, only sketches and reassurances from the architect. 
  • Exactly. Nothing.

So, yes, John has reason for concern but to claim it's stalled is a massive overstatement in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm tired and hungry, so who know's if I'm making sense anymore  

No progress on all fronts in what many think is a cut and dried process. 

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, John Burns said:

No progress on all fronts in what many think is a cut and dried process. 

No, this still isn'tt true. There is progress, we're just not privy to it. Just because the headline points mentioned above are not finalized does not equate no progress. It just means that it's an incredibly complex undertaking that takes time to do. Without knowing the official program timeline and associated project plans, there is no evidence to say there's a delay. 

[Shukes]

3 hours ago, John Burns said:

No it means it has halted, not stopped. It has clearly halted with no progress whatsoever for 6 months. The project is still open but halted - in short, stalled.  Unless you can point to us some progress of course. Wild opinions do not count.

 

Wasn’t there a meeting last Tuesday with Anderson to discuss the details of the financial package?

This would suggest that it hasn’t stalled.... slowed down yes, but not stalled. 

To a certain point I agree with you Jon. Even meiss has gone quiet about our project, while at the same time continuing to comment on other projects.

something has came up that has slowed momentum, but that’s all, slowed. It’s worrying, but normal for projects of this magnitude.

[rubecula]

6 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Wasn’t there a meeting last Tuesday with Anderson to discuss the details of the financial package?

This would suggest that it hasn’t stalled.... slowed down yes, but not stalled. 

To a certain point I agree with you Jon. Even meiss has gone quiet about our project, while at the same time continuing to comment on other projects.

something has came up that has slowed momentum, but that’s all, slowed. It’s worrying, but normal for projects of this magnitude.

especially true if the original builder was to have been Carillion

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, John Burns said:

Planning can go though at any time and regularity does. It will be lengthy for such a large construction and sensitive site. So to speed matters up the application is submitted while funding is being sought.  You can even apply for planning permission on land you do not own, with the landowner not even notified, which does happen regularly. In short, you can draw up plans for the Liver Buildings to build a 50 floor block or whatever, not notifying the owner, Moshiri, and submit an application. 

Planning permission has a duration though.

Also it needs to be pointed out that you cannot put forward for planning permission without a design drawing, or how could they possibly pass it off?

[Guest John Burns]

stop

(of an event, action, or process) come to an end; cease to happen.
 

halt

1. bring or come to an abrupt stop.

2. a suspension of movement or activity, typically a temporary one.

A stop can be gradual but it is final. A halt can be an abrupt stop, or suspension of movement. 

Stall

Is a halt which is not intended. 

 --------------------------

The BMD project has stalled. It came when Meis reported his findings on a sub-optimal solution at BMD.  

[Guest John Burns]

5 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Planning permission has a duration though.

Also it needs to be pointed out that you cannot put forward for planning permission without a design drawing, or how could they possibly pass it off?

You need drawings of course. 

[Guest John Burns]

19 minutes ago, Shukes said:

To a certain point I agree with you Jon. Even meiss has gone quiet about our project, while at the same time continuing to comment on other projects.

Meis gave his proposals to the club, one for full corporate facilities & reduced capacity and one with higher capacity & reduced, lucrative, corporate facilities. The options are with the club. 

Anderson was openly pushing Everton to kickstart the Liverpool Waters project, hence the funding package. Some say a stadium there will do no such thing but that is another matter.  His funding package was for BMD.  The club has looked at other sites and want to know if the funding will still be in place for those site(s).  If Joe says no to discourage building away from his kickstart project, then Everton are off to investigate 100% private funding. The club need to cover all bases, even 100% private funding for BMD itself.