Rafael Benitez

[Cornish Steve]

4 hours ago, RuffRob said:

So a simple question - personal biases aside - how long should any new manager be given? 

Nuno Espirito Santo began his management stint at Spurs by beating the reigning champions and being awarded manager of the month for August. Then, his team having lost four of six games, he was fired. Was this too soon? Since then, Conte has won three of four league games (his first game being a draw against us). Did the manager change pay off? Is it too soon to know?

If fans can see genuine progress in the team's play and look forward to each game, then a manager deserves time. Nuno was fired because it became evident very quickly that there was a problem. There was no forward progress, only clear deterioration. Even in that short space of time, fans hated the style of play and saw no hope of change. Now they're back to winning ways. I would suggest we're seeing no forward progress and clear deterioration. Is anyone looking forward to tomorrow's Chelsea game?

It's true that we face injuries, but consider the team lineup against Liverpool: Richarlison and Allan and Doucoure all started, but was there any hope from the starting whistle? But you might argue that the manager deserves a consistently healthy squad. Truth be told, how often does that happen for any Premier League team these days? Other teams struggle with injuries, too, but none are playing as poorly as we are right now. As others have mentioned, the games against Leicester, Burnley, Newcastle, and Brighton are must-win, and injuries cannot be an excuse. Maybe winning three of four should buy the manager more time, but anything less than that ought to force a decision.

If we have any sense, we'll be using the next few weeks to line up a realistic alternative, even if we decide against any chance because of an improvement in performances. I'm sure we both agree that a panic replacement is the last thing we need. It requires careful deliberation.

(If we beat Chelsea tomorrow, of course I shall be more than willing to eat humble pie.)

[Palfy]

59 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Nuno Espirito Santo began his management stint at Spurs by beating the reigning champions and being awarded manager of the month for August. Then, his team having lost four of six games, he was fired. Was this too soon? Since then, Conte has won three of four league games (his first game being a draw against us). Did the manager change pay off? Is it too soon to know?

If fans can see genuine progress in the team's play and look forward to each game, then a manager deserves time. Nuno was fired because it became evident very quickly that there was a problem. There was no forward progress, only clear deterioration. Even in that short space of time, fans hated the style of play and saw no hope of change. Now they're back to winning ways. I would suggest we're seeing no forward progress and clear deterioration. Is anyone looking forward to tomorrow's Chelsea game?

It's true that we face injuries, but consider the team lineup against Liverpool: Richarlison and Allan and Doucoure all started, but was there any hope from the starting whistle? But you might argue that the manager deserves a consistently healthy squad. Truth be told, how often does that happen for any Premier League team these days? Other teams struggle with injuries, too, but none are playing as poorly as we are right now. As others have mentioned, the games against Leicester, Burnley, Newcastle, and Brighton are must-win, and injuries cannot be an excuse. Maybe winning three of four should buy the manager more time, but anything less than that ought to force a decision.

If we have any sense, we'll be using the next few weeks to line up a realistic alternative, even if we decide against any chance because of an improvement in performances. I'm sure we both agree that a panic replacement is the last thing we need. It requires careful deliberation.

(If we beat Chelsea tomorrow, of course I shall be more than willing to eat humble pie.)

Your becoming a broken record Steve going over and over the same ground to be honest mate it’s getting boring, I pray that there’s enough knowledgeable people on this site when it comes to football to look at the bigger picture and to not sympathise with Benitez position but to understand the huge challenges he has taken on and at minimum give him a least 12-18 months to put his stamp on proceedings. 
I wouldn’t be to concerned about eating humble pie if I was you I’d be more concerned about choking on bullshit. 

[Shukes]

I don’t think we look like relegation candidates  at the moment. So for me, he needs to be given a transfer window to see if he can mould the team more to his style. 
 

A few more performances like against Arsenal and I would feel we are getting somewhere. 
 

Honestly can’t see a manager in the world doing anything different with the squad and injury’s we have. 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

I don’t think we look like relegation candidates  at the moment.

Two wins from our last 12 league games would suggest otherwise.

[Wiggytop]

My concern is the lack of game plan and determination to win games, take the last 4 games,  Brentford woeful performance, failed to shout for a penalty when Rondon was hauled to the ground, Liverpool ran rings around us as expected, woeful defending, Arsenal last gasp winner driven on by the crown, Palace played rings around us also, but a 2-1 I really thought we were going to go on and win, lack of composure in front of goal, and then a total brain fart by our captain gifted them their third killing off all hope.

It’s just not the sort of performances I would have anticipated from a manager with so much experience, Silva or Martinez maybe as they found their feet. We all know that we won’t win every game ( even so I can never bring myself to predict a loss ! ) but we should have taken points from Brentford, Palace, Watford, Villa and Wolves.

However I don’t think we should underestimate how much not having DCL playing has affected us, without him we’ve effectively been playing without a dominant striker, Rondon has clearly been lacking match fitness ( his failing, he should have been ready to play sooner) and Richy doesn’t offer the same skills as DCL when we hoof the ball up, which we do a lot.

Bit of a ramble but that’s how it’s come out of my head.

[barryj]

15 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Weird that he thinks the job is harder than he thought it would be when he apparently conducted a full review of all the players and the club and this attention to detail is part of the reason he got the job in the first place.

I agree, but I assume he’d argue the injuries to key players. I personally think that his decisions haven’t helped to address that. I’ve had it with him and I feel he’s ripping the club apart. I just don’t like the direction the club is heading with him at the wheel. 

[barryj]

7 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

(If we beat Chelsea tomorrow, of course I shall be more than willing to eat humble pie.)

They’ll be no pie for you as it’ll be too far up in the sky!  

[StevO]

7 hours ago, Palfy said:

Your becoming a broken record Steve going over and over the same ground to be honest mate it’s getting boring, I pray that there’s enough knowledgeable people on this site when it comes to football to look at the bigger picture and to not sympathise with Benitez position but to understand the huge challenges he has taken on and at minimum give him a least 12-18 months to put his stamp on proceedings. 
I wouldn’t be to concerned about eating humble pie if I was you I’d be more concerned about choking on bullshit. 

Go and look at the Gana thread

[StevO]

7 hours ago, Palfy said:

Your becoming a broken record Steve going over and over the same ground to be honest mate it’s getting boring, I pray that there’s enough knowledgeable people on this site when it comes to football to look at the bigger picture and to not sympathise with Benitez position but to understand the huge challenges he has taken on and at minimum give him a least 12-18 months to put his stamp on proceedings. 
I wouldn’t be to concerned about eating humble pie if I was you I’d be more concerned about choking on bullshit. 

Would you still give him 12-18 months if we are in the bottom three on 1st January?

How about if we’re in the bottom three on 1st March?

[Aidan]

I'm not sure what people think Rafa is going to do in a couple of transfer windows with absolutely nothing to spend. It might not be too bad if we could offload some of the dross we have at the club - but we all know thats not going to happen.

[Hafnia]

I can't see football getting back to normal for some time.   Safety is everything and its now getting out of control. 

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, Aidan said:

I'm not sure what people think Rafa is going to do in a couple of transfer windows with absolutely nothing to spend. It might not be too bad if we could offload some of the dross we have at the club - but we all know thats not going to happen.

Martinez first season with limited spend: 5th.

Koeman first season with spend: Europa League qualification.

Silva first season with spend: 8th

[Formby]

2 hours ago, StevO said:

Would you still give him 12-18 months if we are in the bottom three on 1st January?

How about if we’re in the bottom three on 1st March?

The pressure is enormous, obviously, and the general fanbase on here and at the games is baying for blood, but I think it is the right thing to keep him on. Give him a chance in January with hopefully an improved injury situation and some of his own players brought in. It may be the pressure is too much for the board (not that we have one) but any new manager is going to be in exactly the same position. 

[RuffRob]

The crux of the problem is that playing staff is just not good enough to be anything better than mid table. Neither Ancelotti or Benitez are able to get that much out of this band of players. We managed to get a few surprise results last year against some big teams in empty stadia, but those results where all rather fortuitous and very much against the run of play lets not kid ourselves the football and most of the results was not awful for the most part of last year. We did have injuries, but not to the extent we have had over the past couple of months.

2 hours ago, StevO said:

Would you still give him 12-18 months if we are in the bottom three on 1st January?

How about if we’re in the bottom three on 1st March?

I am not sure which manager people think would just come in am wave a magic wand and make things all better and turn this team in one than can go out an dominate games on the front foot or even go out and pick up loads of points. The passing and movement capabilities of this squad of players is pretty poor. Swapping our managers every 6months or so is not going to make this problem go away, that's just wishful thinking and simply muddies this squad even more.

Who is this person so much better than the current incumbent that we would be able to attract to manage this club who have a shambles of a board, a ordinary playing squad and a bag of beans in the transfer kitty. We don't have an open cheque book to pay massive wages or compensation to another team for the manager and even less when we pay off the current manager. We don't have the luxury of money being no object anymore - quit the opposite. 

The only managers who would realistically come here are ones none of us would really want - The 'Steve Bruce's of this world. I see no more risk in sticking with and getting behind the one we currently have. 

[RuffRob]

21 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Martinez first season with limited spend: 5th.

Koeman first season with spend: Europa League qualification.

Silva first season with spend: 8th

Martinez - on the back of solid team and best squad we have had in years, then downhill

Koeman - money, money, money and still costing us dearly now and then downhill

Silva - again spent plenty and squad and debt legacy still with us and then downhill

If you think panicking and swapping out Benitez for another Koeman or Silva is the way forward then we are doomed.  And even if you did, not sure how you get them here with no compensation money or transfer kitty to entice them. At this moment in time -  What do you offer a manager to come here?

 

[StevO]

17 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

The crux of the problem is that playing staff is just not good enough to be anything better than mid table. Neither Ancelotti or Benitez are able to get that much out of this band of players. We managed to get a few surprise results last year against some big teams in empty stadia, but those results where all rather fortuitous and very much against the run of play lets not kid ourselves the football and most of the results was not awful for the most part of last year. We did have injuries, but not to the extent we have had over the past couple of months.

I am not sure which manager people think would just come in am wave a magic wand and make things all better and turn this team in one than can go out an dominate games on the front foot or even go out and pick up loads of points. The passing and movement capabilities of this squad of players is pretty poor. Swapping our managers every 6months or so is not going to make this problem go away, that's just wishful thinking and simply muddies this squad even more.

Who is this person so much better than the current incumbent that we would be able to attract to manage this club who have a shambles of a board, a ordinary playing squad and a bag of beans in the transfer kitty. We don't have an open cheque book to pay massive wages or compensation to another team for the manager and even less when we pay off the current manager. We don't have the luxury of money being no object anymore - quit the opposite. 

The only managers who would realistically come here are ones none of us would really want - The 'Steve Bruce's of this world. I see no more risk in sticking with and getting behind the one we currently have. 

You didn’t answer the question Rob. 

If we’re in the bottom three on 1st January do we stick with him?

If we’re in the bottom three on 1st March do we stick with him?

Just keep him for two years regardless of team performance? There may not be another manager who could do better, but sticking with him even if relegation becomes a real threat is madness. 

[StevO]

30 minutes ago, Formby said:

The pressure is enormous, obviously, and the general fanbase on here and at the games is baying for blood, but I think it is the right thing to keep him on. Give him a chance in January with hopefully an improved injury situation and some of his own players brought in. It may be the pressure is too much for the board (not that we have one) but any new manager is going to be in exactly the same position. 

Also not answered the questions. Do you stick with him if we’re in the bottom three?

Im not baying for blood, I don’t care if he stays or goes, but people saying stick with him regardless just seems crazy. There has to be a point with any manager where a change has to be made. Some people seem to want to stick with him regardless of performances because no one else could do better. Ridiculous. Trying to get out of the championship won’t be so easy. But hey, Rafa has done it before right. He’ll just bring us straight back up. 

[RuffRob]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

Also not answered the questions. Do you stick with him if we’re in the bottom three?

Im not baying for blood, I don’t care if he stays or goes, but people saying stick with him regardless just seems crazy. There has to be a point with any manager where a change has to be made. Some people seem to want to stick with him regardless of performances because no one else could do better. Ridiculous. Trying to get out of the championship won’t be so easy. But hey, Rafa has done it before right. He’ll just bring us straight back up. 

nobody is saying regardless. 

First 5 games - near full squad - decent points return (I know it wasn't against top teams - but points are points.

last 9 games - injury ridden squad - very poor return. (but I am not sure which miracle worker gets gets good performances or many point in this situation - this is the Premier league so no easy games). 

next 10 games - injury hit squad or not (we don't yet know),  points return -  (we don't yet know),  impact or quality of new signings - (we don't yet know)

So conclusion - jury still out, but its not panic stations just yet.

If we had not have had a injury crisis I would be more concern. but this prolonged poor run has coincided exactly with an injury crisis to what is a relatively small squad - this is an undeniable fact.

I want to see what he can do when he has most of the players back. 

So yes, happy to see him hear if we are in bottom 3 and  we still have lots of crocked players over the coming weeks.

What is your answer to my question? Who is this replacement we could attract to get a injury hit team to perform?

 

 

 

 

 

[Aidan]

2 hours ago, RuffRob said:

Martinez - on the back of solid team and best squad we have had in years, then downhill

Koeman - money, money, money and still costing us dearly now and then downhill

Silva - again spent plenty and squad and debt legacy still with us and then downhill

If you think panicking and swapping out Benitez for another Koeman or Silva is the way forward then we are doomed.  And even if you did, not sure how you get them here with no compensation money or transfer kitty to entice them. At this moment in time -  What do you offer a manager to come here?

 

Saved me replying thanks

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, RuffRob said:

I am not sure which manager people think would just come in am wave a magic wand and make things all better and turn this team in one than can go out an dominate games on the front foot or even go out and pick up loads of points. The passing and movement capabilities of this squad of players is pretty poor. Swapping our managers every 6months or so is not going to make this problem go away, that's just wishful thinking and simply muddies this squad even more.

Spurs and Villa have done this. Newcastle and United? It remains to be seen. This is why we should be conducting a search right now so we don't panic in a month's time when things are no better.

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, RuffRob said:

Martinez - on the back of solid team and best squad we have had in years, then downhill

Koeman - money, money, money and still costing us dearly now and then downhill

Silva - again spent plenty and squad and debt legacy still with us and then downhill

If you think panicking and swapping out Benitez for another Koeman or Silva is the way forward then we are doomed.  And even if you did, not sure how you get them here with no compensation money or transfer kitty to entice them. At this moment in time -  What do you offer a manager to come here?

 

The point is that Martinez did better than Moyes with essentially the same players. This is what we should expect/demand of a new manager: improvement and progress.

Maybe I can make another point: By finishing fifth, sixth, and eighth, these managers earned many more millions in TV money than would have been the case by finishing 14th or 15th. Benitez spent little, but on present form he'll be generating much less revenue. Put another way, Martinez, Koeman, and Silva generated more revenue, which partly justified the spending of those years. Obviously, it's not a perfect argument because all three managers deserved to be replaced, but it does put the plight of Benitez in better focus. Just imagine the financial impact if we're relegated. That would outweigh the spending of even the most profligate recent years.

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

Go and look at the Gana thread

All I can do if I was close to Steve’s obsessed posting is sincerely apologies

[Cornish Steve]

8 minutes ago, Palfy said:

All I can do if I was close to Steve’s obsessed posting is sincerely apologies

Apologies for going on a bit, but it was obvious from Day One that Benitez was the wrong choice. That's the difference this time around. I'll shut up for now.

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

Would you still give him 12-18 months if we are in the bottom three on 1st January?

How about if we’re in the bottom three on 1st March?

If we were bottom 3 1st of January I would give him his transfer window to balance the team he has taken on the most imbalanced team I can remember. If we were in the bottom 3 come the 1st March I would be astonished, but this is all hypothetical and the poor squad he has had to deal with compounded by a catalog of injuries is reality. 

[Palfy]

10 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Apologies for going on a bit, but it was obvious from Day One that Benitez was the wrong choice. That's the difference this time around. I'll shut up for now.

Don’t take any notice of me mate I’ve had a shit 5-6 months with my insomnia, and responding to posts at 4:00am after my usual 2-3 hours sleep probably isn’t the wises thing to do. I try to make it tongue in cheek in my head it works but in print it doesn’t always come across that way. If you stop posting about Benitez I’ll have nothing to read and post on at between 3-4 in the morning. 

[RuffRob]

16 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Apologies for going on a bit, but it was obvious from Day One that Benitez was the wrong choice. That's the difference this time around. I'll shut up for now.

Of all your attempts to justify Benitez out, this the real crux of it - you didn't want him from the start. So current run of form caused mainly with a load injured players and a generally week squad if players is conveniently used to try and justify the argument he should never have been here. 

I didn't want him here because he would simply never be accepted by a significant proportion, and your are kind of proving this case. But now he is here I am going to support him and give him at least a fair crack at turning this team around. The alternative is back to the drawing board - as nobody has come up with a answer of who comes instead of him and make us instantly good.. 

[Formby]

4 hours ago, StevO said:

Also not answered the questions. Do you stick with him if we’re in the bottom three?

Im not baying for blood, I don’t care if he stays or goes, but people saying stick with him regardless just seems crazy. There has to be a point with any manager where a change has to be made. Some people seem to want to stick with him regardless of performances because no one else could do better. Ridiculous. Trying to get out of the championship won’t be so easy. But hey, Rafa has done it before right. He’ll just bring us straight back up. 

I think you have to assess at that time and see where we are. I am hopeful bottom three will not be the case. @RuffRob has made some excellent points that I subscribe to.

[Shukes]

Honestly… the guy looks happy we have played and wasn’t a point against the European champions!

Spirit of the blues as they say!

[Gwlad]

5 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Apologies for going on a bit, but it was obvious from Day One that Benitez was the wrong choice. That's the difference this time around. I'll shut up for now.

So, who was the right choice?

[StevO]

7 hours ago, RuffRob said:

What is your answer to my question? Who is this replacement we could attract to get a injury hit team to perform?

As I’m not a football expert and don’t watch anything outside of the premier league I’d say my knowledge on managers all around the world is quite limited. I’d like someone on the staff at the club to have more knowledge on this. But it’s pretty short sighted to think there isn’t anyone out there who could do better. But I’m not calling for him to be sacked, yet.