Jump to content

Referendum  

50 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. In or out?

    • Stay in
      26
    • Leave
      24


Recommended Posts

I dont deny there is some element of the Brexit uncertainty that is accelerating Honda's decision however even they have stated that it is due to a series of other reasons as to why they are closing this plant, and apparently a very similar plant in Turkey. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎19‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 14:02, Matt said:

D2B890FB-7449-40C8-9FB4-DA22F9066D09.jpeg

very selective Matt.  1.  Airbus are not pulling out as of now due to the fact that brexit is happening they will leave when the A380 is finished,  they have a lot to build yet.

2.  Ford will leave when they stop making cars  yes they are attempting to sort out the modern truck (instead of course._)

3. honda are making electruc cars and European honda will also close down apparently

4  I have no information on Nissan or mini  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, rubecula said:

very selective Matt.  1.  Airbus are not pulling out as of now due to the fact that brexit is happening they will leave when the A380 is finished,  they have a lot to build yet.

2.  Ford will leave when they stop making cars  yes they are attempting to sort out the modern truck (instead of course._)

3. honda are making electruc cars and European honda will also close down apparently

4  I have no information on Nissan or mini  

I’ll try and find the list of all the companies already leaving, and those planning to leave in case of no deal (like Airbus and the others mentioned). 

The point is more the lie that Leave sold - they won’t leave. They are, are planning to leave or scaling back investment/plans that would’ve created thousands of jobs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Matt said:

I’ll try and find the list of all the companies already leaving, and those planning to leave in case of no deal (like Airbus and the others mentioned). 

The point is more the lie that Leave sold - they won’t leave. They are, are planning to leave or scaling back investment/plans that would’ve created thousands of jobs. 

From what I can find before my meeting:

Bank of America

Sony

Dyson

Panasonic

Lloyds

Unilever (very bad news for the Wirral)

Goldman Sachs

Barclays

Airbus

P&O

HSBC

JP Morgan

UBS

Ford

Hitachi

Toshiba

AXA

Honda

Moneygram

Philips 

European Banking Authority

European Medicines Agency

Nissan

Mini

...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Matt said:

I’ll try and find the list of all the companies already leaving, and those planning to leave in case of no deal (like Airbus and the others mentioned). 

The point is more the lie that Leave sold - they won’t leave. They are, are planning to leave or scaling back investment/plans that would’ve created thousands of jobs. 

no need matt I know your opinion well enough  I was not having a go at you mate I was pointing out a few inaccuracies for anyone who is wondering wtf is going on 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, rubecula said:

no need matt I know your opinion well enough  I was not having a go at you mate I was pointing out a few inaccuracies for anyone who is wondering wtf is going on 

I’m not sharing an opinion though, I’m showing a fact of an outright propaganda lie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Chach said:

The extension debate is very one sided in the UK.  Extension has to be agreed to by the EU.  Under what circumstances would it do so?

An extension of only a couple of months offers no guarantee of the UK being able to ratify the Withdrawal Agreement.

A longer extension is problematic because of the European elections.  You can't be a member state of the EU without having directly democratically elected representatives in the European Parliament; the next elections are May 26th.  Nobody wants to see 73 Farages crossing the Channel.  

I think there is a strong argument to be made to flat out say an extension is not possible.  This way, the UK can stop pretending a "better" deal is only a few (extension- ,  transition- , .. ) months away.  I think Macron is right to take this approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, holystove said:

The extension debate is very one sided in the UK.  Extension has to be agreed to by the EU.  Under what circumstances would it do so?

An extension of only a couple of months offers no guarantee of the UK being able to ratify the Withdrawal Agreement.

A longer extension is problematic because of the European elections.  You can't be a member state of the EU without having directly democratically elected representatives in the European Parliament; the next elections are May 26th.  Nobody wants to see 73 Farages crossing the Channel.  

I think there is a strong argument to be made to flat out say an extension is not possible.  This way, the UK can stop pretending a "better" deal is only a few (extension- ,  transition- , .. ) months away.  I think Macron is right to take this approach.

Macron is the new boy on the block he needs to sort his own country out before getting to involved in ours, he is the only leader that I get the distinct feeling he wants us out with no deal because he sees an angle were France may benefit more by us being out with no deal and doesn’t care that others partners may suffer. 

So Holystove please don’t bring Macron into it France may dictate to Belgium but not here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Macron is the new boy on the block he needs to sort his own country out before getting to involved in ours, he is the only leader that I get the distinct feeling he wants us out with no deal because he sees an angle were France may benefit more by us being out with no deal and doesn’t care that others partners may suffer. 

So Holystove please don’t bring Macron into it France may dictate to Belgium but not here. 

It's not just France; Spanish PM has just said the same thing.  Brexit is a side issue for most EU countries who mostly just want it over with.

If you find yourself in a position where you are dependent on 27 individual countries to save you from (economic) ruin, probably need to look at yourself instead of blaming others, Palfy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, holystove said:

It's not just France; Spanish PM has just said the same thing.  Brexit is a side issue for most EU countries who mostly just want it over with.

If you find yourself in a position where you are dependent on 27 individual countries to save you from (economic) ruin, probably need to look at yourself instead of blaming others, Palfy.

So you don't think he's got a hidden agenda then wake up Holystove he's been vying for London's banking system and the drug development and production businesses to be moved to France, and the Spanish haven't got a hidden agenda because they didn't get the backing of the rest of the EU over Gibraltar and were told to shut up and get into line.

I voted remain but I can begin to understand why people voted out when people like you come out with phrases of economic ruin utter rubbish, all that's happening is the greedy vultures are showing their true colours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Palfy said:

So you don't think he's got a hidden agenda then wake up Holystove he's been vying for London's banking system and the drug development and production businesses to be moved to France, and the Spanish haven't got a hidden agenda because they didn't get the backing of the rest of the EU over Gibraltar and were told to shut up and get into line.

I voted remain but I can begin to understand why people voted out when people like you come out with phrases of economic ruin utter rubbish, all that's happening is the greedy vultures are showing their true colours.

Holystove is the one guy on here who is informed and sees things from both sides, Belgian with a history of proper knowledge as a a lawyer (correct me if I'm wrong) who specialised in European Law. I missed the bit where he mentioned "economic ruin" btw. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Holystove is the one guy on here who is informed and sees things from both sides, Belgian with a history of proper knowledge as a a lawyer (correct me if I'm wrong) who specialised in European Law. I missed the bit where he mentioned "economic ruin" btw. 

What you saying he didn't say we are dependent on 27 countries to save us from financial ruin because he did, also I don't need to know his CV and now that you've told me it makes no difference to my opinion that Macron wants us to no deal so France can benefit from our banking industry and drugs development industry.

Donald Trump is the is the president of the USA but you still criticise him so holystove being a lawyer does not make him always right and immune from criticism, do.be honest Mike I'm a bit bemused by your post and what you are trying to achieve by it because it's very much coming across to me that what ever he says is right and I shouldn't question him, and if that's not the case what's your problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, holystove said:

The extension debate is very one sided in the UK.  Extension has to be agreed to by the EU.  Under what circumstances would it do so?

An extension of only a couple of months offers no guarantee of the UK being able to ratify the Withdrawal Agreement.

A longer extension is problematic because of the European elections.  You can't be a member state of the EU without having directly democratically elected representatives in the European Parliament; the next elections are May 26th.  Nobody wants to see 73 Farages crossing the Channel.  

I think there is a strong argument to be made to flat out say an extension is not possible.  This way, the UK can stop pretending a "better" deal is only a few (extension- ,  transition- , .. ) months away.  I think Macron is right to take this approach.

My gut feeling now with the Labour 'U' turn or should that be double 'U' turn is that Parliament will vote to request an extention on A50 in order to have a 2nd referendum. May now has the ERG to ransom to vote for her deal because the longer this goes on the less likely Brexit is IMO. 

I'm not sure if the EU 27 would ratify the extension though. I suspect some of the leaders (as you mention) might not but then again the main powers within the EU (non country leaders) would probably prefer the UK not to leave and the leaders themselves might put trust in that judgement as they have done with the negotiations. 

If you like your politics, these next 4 weeks are going to be priceless viewing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Palfy said:

So Holystove please don’t bring Macron into it France may dictate to Belgium but not here. 

All EU members must agree, so France has veto.

This is the power we are giving up so we can "take back control"

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Chach said:

All EU members must agree, so France has veto.

This is the power we are giving up so we can "take back control"

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

France will do as they are told for fear of upsetting Germany the question of an extension was raised months ago as an idea by the EU it's self, Germany needs a deal for fear of having to carry the financial can if we leave with no deal, but what we are seeing from Macron is typical he wants us out with no deal for his own gains, and Spain are still licking their wounds over Gibraltar.

Now we have the one person that supposedly has the knowledge saying we are relying on 27 EU countries to save us from financial ruin by allowing an extension to article 50, to that I say you want us to suffer financial ruin because if we don't the EU will fragment with more citizens in each country wanting a vote to leave, so the personal grievances of each individual country will be swept a side by the need for a deal because the bigger problem for the EU is we go it alone and are successful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Palfy said:

France will do as they are told for fear of upsetting Germany the question of an extension was raised months ago as an idea by the EU it's self, Germany needs a deal for fear of having to carry the financial can if we leave with no deal, but what we are seeing from Macron is typical he wants us out with no deal for his own gains, and Spain are still licking their wounds over Gibraltar.

Now we have the one person that supposedly has the knowledge saying we are relying on 27 EU countries to save us from financial ruin by allowing an extension to article 50, to that I say you want us to suffer financial ruin because if we don't the EU will fragment with more citizens in each country wanting a vote to leave, so the personal grievances of each individual country will be swept a side by the need for a deal because the bigger problem for the EU is we go it alone and are successful.

He's simply saying we need a new mandate, the current mandate is leave (Brexit means Brexit)

Why would they agree to an extension so the UK can fanny around for a deal it's never getting?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Chach said:

He's simply saying we need a new mandate, the current mandate is leave (Brexit means Brexit)

Why would they agree to an extension so the UK can fanny around for a deal it's never getting?

 

You can never truly know that and it was the EU that originally through the offer of an extension into the mix, we need that extension to get an agreement in this country and for the very real possibility of it been given back to the people to have the final say.

I never seen anywhere that he said we need a new mandate he said we shouldn't be given an extension, and obviously Brexit doesn't mean Brexit or there wouldn't have been a deal agreed by May and the EU that kept us in the EU trade agreement that's not Brexit if you voted out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Palfy said:

You can never truly know that and it was the EU that originally through the offer of an extension into the mix, we need that extension to get an agreement in this country and for the very real possibility of it been given back to the people to have the final say.

I never seen anywhere that he said we need a new mandate he said we shouldn't be given an extension, and obviously Brexit doesn't mean Brexit or there wouldn't have been a deal agreed by May and the EU that kept us in the EU trade agreement that's not Brexit if you voted out.

He said he would support an extension if the UK made decisions. He said he’d not accept it if things carried on the way they are. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Palfy said:

You can never truly know that and it was the EU that originally through the offer of an extension into the mix, we need that extension to get an agreement in this country and for the very real possibility of it been given back to the people to have the final say.

I never seen anywhere that he said we need a new mandate he said we shouldn't be given an extension, and obviously Brexit doesn't mean Brexit or there wouldn't have been a deal agreed by May and the EU that kept us in the EU trade agreement that's not Brexit if you voted out.

Its pretty clear mate, he's saying if you need to have a vote on the deal your PM has negotiated then we'll give you an extension. But he's also saying the deal that has been negotiated is the one we are prepared to give you and if you want an extension to renegotiate that then don't waste our and your time.

It shits me to tears that the other states are now going to blamed for the UK's stupid decisions, its all a big conspiracy when the UK has brought this entirely on itself.

The EU did not have a referendum on the Brexit, the UK did and they are now protecting the interests of the union like any good union would and should.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Palfy said:

So you don't think he's got a hidden agenda then wake up Holystove he's been vying for London's banking system and the drug development and production businesses to be moved to France, and the Spanish haven't got a hidden agenda because they didn't get the backing of the rest of the EU over Gibraltar and were told to shut up and get into line.

I voted remain but I can begin to understand why people voted out when people like you come out with phrases of economic ruin utter rubbish, all that's happening is the greedy vultures are showing their true colours.

Palfy, there is no way a no-deal brexit will ever benefit France's economy, no matter how much brexit-business moves to Paris.  The country which has gotten the most inward investment up until now from UK-based-companies relocating to the continent is The Netherlands and even for them it won't even put a dent in the hit their economy will take.  There's no hidden agenda or greedy vultures, there's only damage limitation and not letting this process drag on so individual member states (namely France) and the EU can focus on other pressing issues seems like a good strategy given the impasse in UK politics.

I did say 'economic' ruin, because that is what I believe (short to medium term) will happen.  I hope to be proven wrong.  At least the UK got to vote to inflict this on themselves; the Irish, Dutch, Belgians, .. can only look on in despair as their economies are set to shrink.

Other than that I refer to the other replies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, holystove said:

Palfy, there is no way a no-deal brexit will ever benefit France's economy, no matter how much brexit-business moves to Paris.  The country which has gotten the most inward investment up until now from UK-based-companies relocating to the continent is The Netherlands and even for them it won't even put a dent in the hit their economy will take.  There's no hidden agenda or greedy vultures, there's only damage limitation and not letting this process drag on so individual member states (namely France) and the EU can focus on other pressing issues seems like a good strategy given the impasse in UK politics.

I did say 'economic' ruin, because that is what I believe (short to medium term) will happen.  I hope to be proven wrong.  At least the UK got to vote to inflict this on themselves; the Irish, Dutch, Belgians, .. can only look on in despair as their economies are set to shrink.

Other than that I refer to the other replies.

But if what you are saying is the case then the EU should be standing firm with the extensions because the only reason we haven’t left with a no deal is because remain MPs in this country are making it hard for the leavers to just go with out a deal, so by saying you can’t have an extension you are playing into the hands of those who want a no deal Brexit, which would seem odd if they felt it would harm them as much as us. 

The extention will only help the remain in this country grow stronger the longer it lingers the less likely we are to leave with a no deal, and the greater chance the decision on what we do next will go out to the people to vote on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My brother works for Honda and I have friends who work there, also I have friends who work at BMW they are having a shut down for the whole of April, then they go back to a meeting of the whole factory where an announcement on the future will be made. 

The future for Swindon isn’t looking to good at the moment if BMW close it’s estimated Swindon could loose around 10,000 jobs. 

It’s being said that people who voted Brexit in Honda and BMW are getting a hard time from remainers, my mate in BMW said those who still standby their decision are being called scabs, but most who voted out are regretting their decision or are probably to scared to say they standby it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Price worth paying? Editor of the Sunday Telegraph Chris Evans (no, not that one)....

"I write this with reluctance, and much trepidation, but it’s no deal or the Tory party will be finished."

On that basis I say vote for May's deal all day long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For all those who voted leave because taking back control of our borders was a important issue to them, they must be fuming at the latest immigration figures yes they have had the desired effect on people from the EU coming here there numbers have fallen dramatically, probably due to their skills being better rewarded in their native country these days.

But immigration has risen dramatically from South American’s and Africans coming into the country, talk about taking back control of our borders it seems strange that those who can freely come here and we can’t stop don’t, and those who we can stop coming in are pouring in it seems to me taking back control of our borders was another Brexit lie. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She finally seems to be bringing the country together though if the highest rated comments on the BBC report are any judge...

"20,000 extra civil servants hired, £4bn spent by government so far, businesses, people, NHS, etc left in limbo
Still no one has a plan

what a humiliating shambles"

1438 upvotes, 55 down.

"Whether you voted to leave or voted to remain the one thing we can all agree on is that May has handled this whole thing absolutely horrifically."

1387 up, 63 down.

"May has reaffirmed her uselessness as a negotiator and her dishonesty as a public servant."

1376 v 107

"How do you treat us like we are all stupid? Change nothing important but repeat ‘legally binding’ over and over, do it with hours to spare importantly allowing for misinterpretation and hope we are all dumb enough to accept. 

Backstop is still there unchanged, just with an agreement that the EU will talk about ‘changing’ it in the future.

Political theatre at it’s best. What a farce!"

1213 v 28

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, MikeO said:

She finally seems to be bringing the country together though if the highest rated comments on the BBC report are any judge...

What do you think they expected she could negotiate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MikeO said:

You'd need to ask them that.

I find those kind of responses you posted embarrassing to point I wish I had less capacity for empathy, they're whatever the thing one higher than cringe inducing is.

Piers Morgan disciples.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Chach said:

I find those kind of responses you posted embarrassing to point I wish I had less capacity for empathy, they're whatever the thing one higher than cringe inducing is.

Piers Morgan disciples.

Awfully sorry to offend but it's the truth. She could achieve nothing and she lived up to expectations, is that a more satisfactory answer?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even the Torygraph wants rid of Mrs May..

Like some interminable dying scene in an opera, with the soprano shrieking on and on, flailing about madly, coughing and clutching her throat, while the audience sits there, willing it to end, saying a silent prayer: “Please let it stop. Get her off! Please…”

It was painful watching the Prime Minister in the Commons on Tuesday, it really was. And not just because that familiar voice with a hesitant scratch in it had deteriorated to the same Dalek croak that wrecked her speech to the Conservative Party Conference back in 2017. The second defeat of Theresa May’s Brexit Bill was not as bad as the first, but defeat by a 149 vote margin against would still count as a pulverising loss under normal circumstances. That charade of a last-minute dash to Strasbourg, to make it look like a major breakthrough had been achieved, failed abysmally. No one believes her anymore. Britain has had more fake climaxes than a Bangkok brothel.

What should be high drama registers merely as pantomime. Mrs May can’t even rely on close advisers. At least Tony Blair was able to twist his Attorney General’s arm to say the Iraq War was legal. Geoffrey Cox refused to compromise his integrity by giving a view on the latest amendments which would have convinced enough Brexiteers that the UK would not be trapped indefinitely in the backstop. Margaret Thatcher famously said, “Every prime minister needs a Willie.” Poor friendless Theresa only has a detumescent Cox’s codpiece.

It’s obvious the EU top brass know how appallingly weak she is, this leader without the support of her own Parliament whose own ministers are revving up to grab poll position in a leadership contest. Sitting next to her on Monday night, Jean-Claude Juncker casually revealed who was boss. This was a second chance for the UK, he said, if we didn’t take it there could be “no Brexit at all”. If looks could kill, the PM would have had a knife to the old soak’s throat. A gallant bow and a kiss for her from Michel Barnier was deceptively fond. He probably did it to pass on a virus; literally a Frog in her throat.

On Tuesday night, the PM acted once again as if this catastrophic rejection of her deal, unleashing a surreal new level of crisis, was nothing to do with her. Her detachment is inhuman. For a while, Theresa’s May’s secretiveness, her awkward, recessive manner, made us think she must have hidden depths. (Surely, there was a masterplan we weren’t privy to?) Now we know for sure she is no Machiavelli. She has no cards. The Empress is wearing no clothes, except for a statement necklace. An only child married to another only child, her interpersonal skills are non-existent. She can’t communicate, can’t build bridges, forge cross-party alliances, she can’t unite her own Cabinet let alone the country. So what is the point of her? Leadership requires a leader, and this one has been missing in action far too long. If you have suffered two of the biggest Commons defeats in a generation, just maybe people are trying to tell you something, Prime Minister?

It won’t be easy getting this self-declared “bloody difficult woman” to step aside. She continues to think she’s the answer, when actually she’s the problem. I asked one senior Tory yesterday what would happen if someone was brave enough to hand Theresa the metaphorical revolver. “She’d shoot the messenger,” he replied glumly.

The Conservative Party must take some of the blame. Foolishly, they hung onto Theresa May after a disastrous election performance and then allowed her to survive a vote of no confidence. No one wanted to be the assassin because he who strikes the queen won’t inherit the Crown. That was cowardly. Now Parliament grows ever more like a funfair train with a ghost driver at the wheel, careering round the track in mad circles.

It has to stop. We need a bold new leader who can enter 21 months of EU negotiations with guts, vision and fire in their belly, and, if necessary, lead the Conservatives into a victorious general election, which is probably what it will take to get this mess sorted out.

They say that Philip May will tell his wife when it’s time to go. She trusts him like she trusts no one else. On Tuesday night, I very much hope that the exhausted PM had a hot bath and a hot toddy. Nobody would begrudge her that. Her sense of duty is exemplary, but she is the wrong person for the job – and if she stays, she may destroy the party she loves.

If Philip could have a gentle word in her ear, he should tell her the moment is now. 

Capture.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Chach said:

I find those kind of responses you posted embarrassing to point I wish I had less capacity for empathy, they're whatever the thing one higher than cringe inducing is.

Piers Morgan disciples.

Missed the Piers Morgan reference because I was sat in the dentist's waiting room when I replied so not sure it was directed at me. No matter, but just to clarify (if it was directed at me) that you couldn't be more wrong; I spend no time watching gameshows or breakfast TV so I have no interest in his opinions or his methods of putting them across. Plainly you'd need to be blind not to have noted his fame/notoriety/opprobrium come to your attention if you have any interest in current affairs but I've spent 7/8 hours watching the live feed from from parliament over the last couple of days and absolutely zero time watching TVAM or whatever they're now called.

Hope you don't find this embarrassing, perhaps you watch him a lot; each to their own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, MikeO said:

On another note, the amount of members playing with their mobiles is a disgrace whatever they're doing, future of the country at stake and half of them are on whatssap or whatever.

fully agree mike  they need a bloody good clearout imo

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Matt said:

Which was nothing :huh: 

Yep, so you can't blame her for not achieving what couldn't be achieved which is why I find the armchair analysis from the peanut gallery so cringe inducing.

Regardless of party politics/bias, I think its hard to make a case that she hasn't done her best to try and minimize the harm that will come from Brexit. 

The day after day humiliation of going back to the EU, cap in hand, I don't think a blokes ego would let him do it which is why Cameron fucked off, and she kept the Brexiteers at bay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MikeO said:

Missed the Piers Morgan reference because I was sat in the dentist's waiting room when I replied so not sure it was directed at me. No matter, but just to clarify (if it was directed at me) that you couldn't be more wrong; I spend no time watching gameshows or breakfast TV so I have no interest in his opinions or his methods of putting them across. Plainly you'd need to be blind not to have noted his fame/notoriety/opprobrium come to your attention if you have any interest in current affairs but I've spent 7/8 hours watching the live feed from from parliament over the last couple of days and absolutely zero time watching TVAM or whatever they're now called.

Hope you don't find this embarrassing, perhaps you watch him a lot; each to their own.

I follow people on twitter I find reprehensible to make sure I don't live in an echo chamber of my own making.

I'd be more embarrassed if I'd spent all day reading the live feed and my analysis was "its all the woman's fault"

Like you say though, each to their own :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Chach said:

Yep, so you can't blame her for not achieving what couldn't be achieved which is why I find the armchair analysis from the peanut gallery so cringe inducing.

Regardless of party politics/bias, I think its hard to make a case that she hasn't done her best to try and minimize the harm that will come from Brexit. 

The day after day humiliation of going back to the EU, cap in hand, I don't think a blokes ego would let him do it which is why Cameron fucked off, and she kept the Brexiteers at bay.

 

4 hours ago, Chach said:

I follow people on twitter I find reprehensible to make sure I don't live in an echo chamber of my own making.

I'd be more embarrassed if I'd spent all day reading the live feed and my analysis was "its all the woman's fault"

Like you say though, each to their own :)

Can you point out to me where I said anything was her fault? She was left, after Cameron jumped ship (as you say) and all the leading Brexiteers scuttled for cover because they never expected to win and knew they couldn't deliver what they promised, with an impossible task. She had to attempt to achieve something she campaigned against and didn't believe in (actually she didn't have to put herself forward but she chose to for whatever reason).

I agree that she's tried to minimise the harm of this whole fiasco but she's failed, as anyone would have done, because her party is so entrenched in opposing camps. The fault lies solely with Cameron for promising the referendum in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m trying to enjoy the irony of parliament being allowed multiple votes on a difficult topic with hindsight and much more information of the consequences, but the people who they keep saying chose this (no one did) don’t deserve another say. 

Honestly, we need a revolution in terms of politics 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MikeO said:

 

Can you point out to me where I said anything was her fault? She was left, after Cameron jumped ship (as you say) and all the leading Brexiteers scuttled for cover because they never expected to win and knew they couldn't deliver what they promised, with an impossible task. She had to attempt to achieve something she campaigned against and didn't believe in (actually she didn't have to put herself forward but she chose to for whatever reason).

I agree that she's tried to minimise the harm of this whole fiasco but she's failed, as anyone would have done, because her party is so entrenched in opposing camps. The fault lies solely with Cameron for promising the referendum in the first place.

I can't find fault with asking the general population for their opinion and vote. The fault really lies with how fickle and easily swayed the general population has become. (And I admit that I would have voted for Brexit but, as I mentioned at the time, as a way to gain some leverage against the flood of non-financial rules being imposed on the country. I never thought the country would actually leave - and it still may not.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

John Bercow, the speaker, says he is calling four amendments, plus an amendment to an amendment.

They are:

1) Sarah Wollaston’s - calling for an extension to article 50 to allow for time for a referendum on Brexit.

2) Hilary Benn’s - saying next Wednesday should be set aside for a debate that would start the process of allowing MPs to hold indicative votes on Brexit alternatives. There is also an amendment to this amendment, from Labour’s Lucy Powell, changing the timing.

3) Labour’s - saying article 50 should be extended to allow time for MPs to find a majority for a different approach to Brexit.

4) Chris Bryant’s - saying Theresa May should not be allowed to put her deal to the Commons again.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

I can't find fault with asking the general population for their opinion and vote. The fault really lies with how fickle and easily swayed the general population has become. (And I admit that I would have voted for Brexit but, as I mentioned at the time, as a way to gain some leverage against the flood of non-financial rules being imposed on the country. I never thought the country would actually leave - and it still may not.)

It's a view but where do you draw the line? Who decides what the public get asked about by the people they elected to make decisions for them? Also fair enough asking for opinion (which is actually what they did) but then insisting on acting on that opinion when it's almost certainly going to be a disaster and the majority of elected members don't want to do it at all, never did and probably never will. If the "will of the people" at a given moment in time is sacrosanct then why to we have an election every five years? Because people change their minds when promises, pledges and policy become reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MikeO said:

 The fault lies solely with Cameron for promising the referendum in the first place.

For what reason, though? There have been eleven other referenda since 1973 and none have come close to creating such a mess. Should he have been prescient enough to realise this? If so, are there questions that politicians should never put to the general population as we are likely to get it wrong (if there is such a thing)? I think that's a dangerous way of thinking and, seeing how parliament has dealt with Brexit, voting on tribal party lines and treating us all with considerable disdain, I don't think a vote by plebiscite could do any worse. Cameron may very well have offered the referendum on party political grounds (trying to silence the Eurosceptics), but he was definitely a Remainer and warned against leaving. It would have been impossible to leave without offering the public a say. I think Parliament shoulders the blame. It has utterly failed us, and probably the civil servants, too. I have no time for May - she should have resigned, or been forced out, months ago - absolutely inept and made worse by her arrogant intransigence. From the day after the referendum vote, all parties should have sat around the table and worked out what they wanted. They should have agreed amongst themselves before approaching the EU. They still haven't now and they probably won't even after an extension. It's an absolute farce and the joke's on us.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Formby said:

For what reason, though? There have been eleven other referenda since 1973 and none have come close to creating such a mess. Should he have been prescient enough to realise this? If so, are there questions that politicians should never put to the general population as we are likely to get it wrong (if there is such a thing)? I think that's a dangerous way of thinking and, seeing how parliament has dealt with Brexit, voting on tribal party lines and treating us all with considerable disdain, I don't think a vote by plebiscite could do any worse. Cameron may very well have offered the referendum on party political grounds (trying to silence the Eurosceptics), but he was definitely a Remainer and warned against leaving. It would have been impossible to leave without offering the public a say. I think Parliament shoulders the blame. It has utterly failed us, and probably the civil servants, too. I have no time for May - she should have resigned, or been forced out, months ago - absolutely inept and made worse by her arrogant intransigence. From the day after the referendum vote, all parties should have sat around the table and worked out what they wanted. They should have agreed amongst themselves before approaching the EU. They still haven't now and they probably won't even after an extension. It's an absolute farce and the joke's on us.     

There has only been one UK wide referendum since 1973, the rest were regional (Wales, Scotland, NI & London) and that was on electoral reform. Both the main parties opposed it (turkeys don't vote for Christmas) and unsurprisingly it lost 68/32%.

Worth noting that if we had reformed the way we vote we might have had the sort of government (all parties sat around the table) that you suggest might have handled this mess more adeptly. 

Cameron? Maybe I'm being harsh to blame him personally but I need someone to get angry with, can only spend so much time shouting at people on the radio.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, MikeO said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47614074

Oh the irony😂.

'Conservative MP James Gray, who plans to vote for the deal after rejecting it twice, said he was "absolutely furious"'

Wouldn’t be surprised if they try and rush a law through to revoke the old one so they can have this third vote on the same thing and lose it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...