pete0 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 Who would win? SAF Howard Coleman Heitinga Distin Baines Pienaar Osman Fellaini Mirallas Barkley Jelavic Versus Moyes Lindengaard Rafael Rio Vidic Evra Valencia Scholes Carrick Giggs Rooney RVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 It's sad how hard it is for you to embrace ideas that haven't been written in a rag. I'm sure this is peteo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 I stopped reading when I saw Heitinga in the combined team. This Admittedly he has played well in the last couple of games but overall he has looked more like a white Titus Bramble this season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 People seem to have short memories, he was our player of the season last year. the fact the manager benched him from the start of this season can't of help his confidence. Moyes has to shoulder some of the blame for Heitingas poor form, although when he has played Heitinga hasn't helped himself in any way shape or form with some schoolboy football at times. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 It's sad how hard it is for you to embrace ideas that haven't been written in a rag. I embrace good ideas based on football knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 Who would win? SAF Howard Coleman Heitinga Distin Baines Pienaar Osman Fellaini Mirallas Barkley Jelavic Versus Moyes Lindengaard Rafael Rio Vidic Evra Valencia Scholes Carrick Giggs Rooney RVP Moyes probably but he'd prob put De Gea in over Lindergaard and maybe get Welbeck and Cleverly in there, maybe even Young. Hernandez may even come in - maybe even Nani and Kagawa but they could always come on as subs. He may even use Jones and Smalling late on if it's a tight game. Anderson and Powell may have to be left out for this one and sadly Fletcher is still a long term miss. Butner could probably have done a job too on another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 I forgot Evans who has been excellent this season! Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 Moyes probably but he'd prob put De Gea in over Lindergaard and maybe get Welbeck and Cleverly in there, maybe even Young. Hernandez may even come in - maybe even Nani and Kagawa but they could always come on as subs. He may even use Jones and Smalling late on if it's a tight game. Anderson and Powell may have to be left out for this one and sadly Fletcher is still a long term miss. Butner could probably have done a job too on another day. Why would he include them kids when he's got better ones at Everton that he doesn't bother to play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 It's all hypothetical what one would do and the other and how teams would play under each manager, We have some great younger players that Moyes could and should have used more wisely and that's purely my opinion and one of his big flaws in my eyes But United have a gulf in depth to us and in general that depth contains better quality, you could bang on about if this manager had this player or that squad it means nothing in reality the fact is United for multiple reasons have pissed the league this season against better sides but as said they are the best "team". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 Why would he include them kids when he's got better ones at Everton that he doesn't bother to play? Do you visit finch farm to watch training sessions? Do you closely follow the reserve games? Do you closely follow the academy games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 Do you visit finch farm to watch training sessions? Do you closely follow the reserve games? Do you closely follow the academy games? This again. Do you ever go beyond the syllabus and use your own noggin? O'wait no, David Moyes knows all. Remember Jags at RB, or Rodwell at RM. Great manager the way he keeps the squad happy, even though he subs tired players and isn't scared to drop them if they went out of form giving the youth a chance in their place and then letting them keep a spot in the team on merit. Don't get me started on his array of tactics either the man of 1000 faces you never know what you'll get. Shit, the wind blew and he's been stuck like this for the last decade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 The problem is you haven't given any substance to our back-up being better than Man U's then you go on the defensive. I'd understand your point if you knew anything about our youngsters that others on here don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 The problem is you haven't given any substance to our back-up being better than Man U's then you go on the defensive. I'd understand your point if you knew anything about our youngsters that others on here don't. I know that Moyes under uses them whereas Fergie is willing to give the likes of Chadwick a fair crack of the whip and gain some experience. Moyes is terrible at bringing youngsters through, this method was used by SAF to transform United into one of the biggest clubs in the world. But I guess thats not substance as I don't have any coaching badges and a dissertation. What exactly have you contributed to back up your claims? Not much, you're too busy shooting others down with no ammo. But fuck it eh, lets just cry for an investor so we can do it the easy way as investing in youth is too much of a gamble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 I'm not the one claiming our youngsters are better than man u's international reserves - it's a huge statement! If you went to watch the ressies and youths (something I don't do) then you may be able to justify your statement but it's clear you don't! You don't need any badge or certificate but it helps if you can back your statements up with more than pure speculation. Moyes maybe hasn't played one or two youngsters as much as he should have but if you think we'd be like Man U with Barkley, Vellios and Duffy the new Giggs, Scholes and Beckham then you're on planet gaga! Football has changed massively e.g. money/foreigners since Fergie's 'you can't win anything with kids team'. Look at Man U of late Welbeck, Cleverly and Evans all got time out on loan at the highest level (EPL), we don't have the back-up to do this. It's less of a risk to develop youth at Man U as the surround players can 'carry' one or two under performers. Youngsters at Everton are less likely to be 'carried' as we're simply not as good as Man U. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 Did Duffy/Vellios not look useful enough last season, have they gone backwards? We've struggled for creativity at times whilst leaving one of the biggest prospects of this era to twiddle his thumbs. Phil Neville has played half a season in midfield for us and Jags was pushed to right back, surely no kid would have offered less. Moyes is too risk adverse and it will hurt the club in the long run, when he won't be here to take the blame. Has Moyes actually developed any youngster himself, because all I can think of is Rooney/Rodwell hardly the hardest job in the world, Coleman (only got a chance through an extreme amount of injuries, then Moyes continued to use him after he got found out only pushing him back once forced to), and lastly Anichebe who was misused as a winger. If young players need to be world class or wait on a very unlikely series of injuries to get a chance the clubs academy isn't going to be very successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I'll leave this as concise as possible, the reason we are focussing on united is the argument - "They aren't that good" The fact that they are good enough to win the league at a canter goes to show how poor the premier league has gone at the "top 4" level - simple as that. United have proven themselves to be the best in the prem, but in my opinion fall way short of that level you will see shown by Real, Barca, Bayern. That isn't good enough for a club of their resources - in the richest league in the world. The argument therefore comes down to this -"should we be content with 6/7 ish positioning?" - not really is my answer. Our squad and "first 11" is definately better than that comparitive to the competition. The points we have thrown away due to trying to hold on, conceding late goals etc would see us firmly in the running for 4th place. The middle has definately caught up with the top. pete0, Romey 1878, Matt and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) gobsmacked at how this thread has gone! Pete, Im usually with you on a lot of things but im assuming youve taken a bump to the head or smoked something wonderful. I'll put it down to happy bias Duffy, Vellios and Barkley have a combined total EPL appearances of 36, 22 of which are apparently Vellios alone and id bet not 1 of them is for a full game. Yes, we want to see more youth coming through, and yes we would like to see Moyes use more variety but to say these kids are in the same bracket of Jones, Welbeck, Cleverley is boarding on delusional! The 3 young Utd players are going to be top draw players, and well on their way in my opinion, an opinion made on watching them play, which I cant say for the Everton players mentioned because our 3 dont play. Simple as that. Fault of Moyes? Maybe. Or maybe theyre not good enough. We cant know because they dont play. Would SAF play them? Maybe, depending on how good they are. If he didnt think they were good enough, he wouldnt. But again, hypothetical situations. If we was going to do a mix team, id have this (similar to Baileys I know): ..............Howard ............. Coleman Jags Vidic Baines ....Carrick ........ Felli ....... Mirallas Rooney Welbeck ................RVP................. Subs : De Gea, Evans, Rafael, Osman, Nani, Valencia, Pienaar Near misses from selection : Jones, Smalling, Distin, Cleverley, Gibson, Evra, Vic.... Some people seem to have forgotten De Geas terrible form for the first 3-4 months of the season, and both Jags and Coleman are only in place by the skin of their teeth, partially down to bias and the fact that I cant stand Rafael. None of our strikers deserve to be there because theyve not been scoring (the fact the service has been mostly poor is a crap excuse, weve got a leftback that is one of the best at creating opportunities statistically.) and midfield wise, weve not been good enough. Edited April 4, 2013 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 i think howard's been shite most of the season tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 i think howard's been shite most of the season tbh hes been average most of the season for me, but consistently average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Man U may not be that good on a European comparison with teams in Spain, Germany, Italy and now France with more quality and even some Eastern euro teams beginning to grow. They do however have a stronger squad than us. I would say Arsenal, Chelsea, Man U, Man C and Spurs have all got stronger squads than us, I would put our squad on par with Liverpool's although they have a genuinely world class player in Suarez which makes a huge difference. To be honest on paper Newcastle have a really good squad too (and QPR!) Yes we have thrown away points for whatever reason but to be fair we've gained late points too (probably thrown away more than we've earned). However we are where we are, for whatever reasons, the fact and the point of this discussion is that we don't have the squad and depth that Man U have! Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I cant believe half of what I've just read! IMO Baines would get in the United team, and maybe Fellaini. No one else would come close. These average overrated players are winning the league by a country mile, why would they need our players? Who do we have who can improve their team other than the two above? Dalziel Kane and Quinn31 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I cant believe half of what I've just read! IMO Baines would get in the United team, and maybe Fellaini. No one else would come close. These average overrated players are winning the league by a country mile, why would they need our players? Who do we have who can improve their team other than the two above? Mirallas, Coleman, and Jags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Mirallas, Coleman, and Jags. Maybe, but I think the point is Fergie would probably only buy Baines and Fellaini off us to improve his team. Man U have got at least as good as the 3 mentioned in Young/Nani, Rafael and Evans/Vidic/Ferdinand/Smalling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Maybe, but I think the point is Fergie would probably only buy Baines and Fellaini off us to improve his team. Yeh thats a good point as if we bought a few of their players then it would really boost our squad. I do think though that if you look through both squad sheets and picked the best 20 players then we would have almost as many as Utd's. Maybe 12-8 or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) Squad of 25 - Mancerton FC Gk - De Gea, Howard, Lindergaard Rb - Rafael, Coleman Lb - Baines, Evra Cb - Vidic, Evans Cb - Jagielka, Smalling Rm - Mirrallas, Valencia Lm - Young, Nani Cm - Fellaini, Cleverly Cm - Carrick, Kagawa Att - RVP, Welbeck Att - Rooney, Hernandez Obviously you could argue the toss on many players but to me it's clear the main difference between the two squads is in the attacking areas where, in my opinion, they are far superior to most. Edited April 4, 2013 by c1982 Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 People seem to have short memories, he was our player of the season last year. the fact the manager benched him from the start of this season can't of help his confidence. Moyes has to shoulder some of the blame for Heitingas poor form, although when he has played Heitinga hasn't helped himself in any way shape or form with some schoolboy football at times. Nobody is knocking his form from last season and I do believe he will come good again. but the argument here is that Hietinga was picked for a team based on form this season so it is therefore laughable that he gets in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 @Matt (likewise I tend to agree with most your posts, tbh they're usually what I want to say, but worded coherently). I've never got why anyone rates Welbeck. The lad's one footed and mentally slow, cracking shot but straight at the keeper. He's a Defoe clone, pace and not much else. Pros and cons compared to Anichebe, Vic would win hands down. Cleverley just isn't there yet. He's got potential, but currently not @ prem level of ability, worth playing against lower sides to gain experience, but shouldn't be a starter. Jones didn't have a stiff in the U21's until he went to Utd, terribly overrated. I struggle to see why anyone would pay £15 mil for him, Samba was the one that stood out at B'burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Jones didn't have a stiff in the U21's until he went to Utd, terribly overrated. I struggle to see why anyone would pay £15 mil for him, Samba was the one that stood out at B'burn. Jones played most his football at Blackburn in centre mid and was excellent. Samba and Nelson were what Blackburn were built upon - went a bit tits up when that partnership was split. Pretty sure Jones got his first full call up before he moved to Man U. I remember Chelsea being if for him too. I'd love him at Everton but I'd say that about Welbeck and Cleverly too - 3 excellent youngsters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Jones played most his football at Blackburn in centre mid and was excellent. Samba and Nelson were what Blackburn were built upon - went a bit tits up when that partnership was split. Pretty sure Jones got his first full call up before he moved to Man U. I remember Chelsea being if for him too. I'd love him at Everton but I'd say that about Welbeck and Cleverly too - 3 excellent youngsters. He was 5th/6th choice for the U21's, went to united then become an instant starter. I posted about it on here a while back, cba going through the stats again. Mancienne who isn't very good was the main defender, and I'd still say he is better. I think even Rodwell was playing there ahead of Jones as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 He progressed quickly it seems - England u21 debut Aug 2010 then senior debut a year later. He was made captain of the u21s in that time and didn't seem to be 2nd fiddle with 9 appearances and a 3 month injury lay off in that time. Mancienne was poor - watched him a few times at Wolves and he didn't stand out at that level. Went to Germany with Hamburg if my memory serves me right. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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