Season so far....it's hard to take in...

[Newty82]

....the amount of bollocks being spoken about our first few league games, both by a portion of our 'fans' and both sky and bbc 'experts'.

 

Lets look at some of the kind of quotes we have so far....

'Passing for no reason....'

'Passing too slow...'

'Not penetrating enough...'

'Not creating chances...' etc etc.

 

You get what I mean, and know what I am on about. I dont agree with any of these statements or anything like them. But I thought to myself 'Dave, you have to wear glasses to see your 50inch TV, maybe your short sighted by nature aswell as physically....'. So, I look up the stats for our first 3 league games...and my view has not changed.

 

Now my view of keeping the ball is that 1) the opposition can do naff all without it, 2) its more tiring if you have to chase the ball and 3) with the ball, you control the game. I coach youth football and its bloody hard work drilling this in...as come game day, the call from the sidelines is 'clear it'....'get rid'...blah blah. In this country, we are shit at the game we invented because we cant grasp the idea of good calm patient football. Barcelona keep the ball for fun, Spains national team is made up of mainly Barcelona players, kind of hard to disagree with what they do. Martinez is made from this very same modern way of thinking. A lot of us english fans simply are not. So we have to hoof it if its nil nil after a few minutes.

 

I cant back this up on my own...so the stats....

 

Vs Norwich (a)...67% possession, 20 shots (vs.8), Shot accuracy 35% (vs.25%), 564 passes (vs.258), Pass Acc. 88% (vs.76%)

 

Vs WBA (h)...62% possession, 22 shots (vs.7), Shot accuracy 36% (vs.29%), 478 passes (vs.298), Pass acc. 83% (vs.70%)

 

Vs Cardiff (a)...63% possession, 13 shots (vs.4), shot accuracy 23% (vs.25%), 513 passes (vs.299), Pass acc. 86% (vs.76%)

 

The stats show that the type of football being played is doing its job...that is limiting the oppositions opportunity to use the ball, limiting their chances, and far from what is being said, this style of football is enabling us to create chances. Plenty of them. Our shot accuracy is far from poor. Also, we are passing the ball with great accuracy.

 

The only problem is we cant convert our chances just now, but that is not the fault of our style or any single player...it just aint happening just now. But it will. Its hard to see that when keeping the ball so much, creating so many chances etc it aint eventually going to go our way.

 

It is frustrating to have not won these games, but it is surely pleasing that we are doing almost everything right?!!!

 

The other moan is about Kone. Give the bloke a chance to get match fit, he's finding his fitness after fasting...that would zap the energy and therfore fitness out of any top athlete. The bloke will get us around 15 goals this season. Its totally unfair to label the £6 or so million spent on him as a waste. After a few sub appearances? Behave. So, some say we should have spent the money on someone else, who?

 

Overall, this is good stuff.

 

I am sceptical though...I have to admit...about the amount of staff brought in from wigan and also the number of players we have or are linked to from wigan. We have signed 3...linked with 2 others. That does make me feel a bit nervy.

 

I am a bit dissapointed....that we have spent a minimum amount of money on transfers, especially after all the hoo-haa about new tv money etc. Now Martinez says we dont need to sell financially. This seems to be true and only means the banks arent making silly demands, neither is any loan shark. Great.

 

However, clearly we have to sell if we want to buy. I am confident that we have 4/5 quality players lined up should Baines and Fellaini go, definately. Ideally we'll keep Baines...I dont mind us selling Fellaini, I think he really wants to go, and we'll bring in 3/4 players if that happens. But...its a shame we have to sell to buy.

 

Clearly, what we have is what we have squad wise. Its clear that we need more depth, quality depth I mean. I think more players will get a chance this season, it will be good to see who cuts it. Hopefully all of them, but when does that ever happen?

 

We'll still be up battling a top 6 place, but what happens between now and 11pm Monday will influence that a lot.

 

To finish...I reckon this years derby games will see some of the best pure football played for years between us.

[rubecula]

good post Newty. For me the only stats that matter is goals scored and goals conceded.

 

The only way to win games is to score goals. Passing can be a great as anything but ithout goals it is meaningless.

[Newty82]

good post Newty. For me the only stats that matter is goals scored and goals conceded.

 

The only way to win games is to score goals. Passing can be a great as anything but ithout goals it is meaningless.

Cheers, and yeah, I get that. And as said, we are struggling with that. But we are creating the chances, some, including pro pundits, are saying the passing is leading to nothing...well it is, clearly it is. But it is frustrating that the players are doing the hard bit, then just cant quite finish it off....at the moment! But it will come.

 

Dont forget though, we aint conceding either...because the opposition aint getting many chances...thats a good thing too.

 

Its a balanced view, and we'll all have our own. We can argue with each other...but you cant argue with the numbers.

[Dalziel Kane]

You can argue with the spelling however (ain't - aren't) and other grammatical deficiencies in the above post though. Guess I'll have to do one of those childish animation things to show no malice intended and a harmless observation :shaking fist: , but with that out of the way, however anyone wants to view it, the chances have been there, but unable to have been converted. We're not playing particularly poorly, it is only three games into the season, and it feels sometimes some have Martinez down as a failure at this stage of the season.

 

This appears as a dupicate thread to what has been discussed before, but that feels a bit unfair to the author who took the time and trouble to put this article together. Appreciate what you have presented here, but it just feels like familair territory to what we have seen already.

 

This club will be all right. No relegation concerns, maybe a flirt with the UEFA cup places once again, Martinez trial and error in his first season etc. Nobody's expecting miracles. We're simply at the experimental stages some would argue.

[Avinalaff]

The last thing we want is 4 or 5 new players yet lose 2 established ones of this quality.

 

It's not easy to get new players to gel. If we must sell, then may it be for the highest price possible, and certainly not for the figures touted around. It's not like United are skint.

 

I'll be happy keeping what we have and buying another midfielder. It's a sad state of affairs when you have to sell players to buy players, when teams all around us are hiking prices up with their money is no object attitudes and bottomless pockets.

 

I'd love for City to get involved just to piss United off, but then tell them both to shove it.

[Mike21]

Great post. Not everything that is done with the ball needs to be done to score goals. All the passing around at the back has a purpose - to keep the defensive structure intact. Last season we had a lot of goals scored against us on the counter, and a lot of the time it was from being out of position at the back or because we played risky balls and they got intercepted. I haven't made my mind up on Martinez yet but maybe the goals will come when our feel for this style gets better. 2 clean sheets is a positive result (sounding like Martinez here!).

 

I disagree with whoever said that Martinez's style is attacking, exciting football. It's not. It's going to be boring at times when only the safe passes are made, and a lot the passing is going to be for defensive reasons as much as attacking. That is still better than hoofball.

[Newty82]

@ DK....thanks for the grammar thing. To be honest...I write on my phone and/or tablet...its tricky whacking in every ''' so I dont bother, too keen to get my thoughts out see. I also fall into the trap of typing how I speak...so as a true northerner, I dont say 'arent'...I say 'aint'...we dont all speak the Queens language fluently.

Also, it may be seem like a duplicate thread, but it isnt. I read a few threads that seem to go off on a tangent (dont they all?!!) and tried to pull it all together with my own thoughts rather than leaving a little snippet here, little snippet there.

I havent read a thread yet with all the stats...just a load of wayward opinions with no back up.

 

Avin...I know what you mean. But is Fellaini really 100% interested? Can he really contribute as much with the ball being played to his feet more than his chest? I think he could for sure, if he was 100% interested.

 

So its no good getting in extra players if losing one estabilished player? Well I guess Spurs are going to find it hard this season

Edited September 1, 2013 by Newty82

[Hafnia]

You can argue with the spelling however (ain't - aren't) and other grammatical deficiencies in the above post though. Guess I'll have to do one of those childish animation things to show no malice intended and a harmless observation :shaking fist: , but with that out of the way, however anyone wants to view it, the chances have been there, but unable to have been converted. We're not playing particularly poorly, it is only three games into the season, and it feels sometimes some have Martinez down as a failure at this stage of the season.

 

This appears as a dupicate thread to what has been discussed before, but that feels a bit unfair to the author who took the time and trouble to put this article together. Appreciate what you have presented here, but it just feels like familair territory to what we have seen already.

 

This club will be all right. No relegation concerns, maybe a flirt with the UEFA cup places once again, Martinez trial and error in his first season etc. Nobody's expecting miracles. We're simply at the experimental stages some would argue.

I think you seriously need to stop this grammar shite and questioning "who made the thread and is it worthy". Maybe start watching a few games rather than scrutinising grammar.

 

Looking for that no harm intended smiley. I'm on iPhone so can't...

 

Newty, well balanced post. I agree, too many blues pressing panic buttons. We have played 3 spoiler teams. They could do that to anyone in this league. Trust me when we are a few months in playing such teams injuries and the build up of games mean they won't have the legs to work as hard as they need to do against us.

 

Lets see what happens when the window ends.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Hafnia

[Matt]

Excellent post, although I'm with Rubes - stats are great, goals and points are better. Also, it's seems that teams around us have figured out how to defend against the system - pile men back, which forces us back.

 

I've never made it a secret that I don't like this passing style, even back in 2008 and 2010 when Spain won the Euros and World Cup respectively, I found it boring. Football isn't just about possession and passing, it's about goals and when Spain won the World Cup with a record low goals tally (Germany had 13 goals - and could stay on their feet if someone coughed next to them- against 8 from Spain) I lost all patience with the system. There's just no excitement in it for me.

 

You have a point about Kone, he didn't really have a preseason so he may need a few games to get fit again. But the chances missed so far, we're not related to fitness and so the frustration is justified.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Matt

[Hafnia]

I hope liverpool batter united. The arrogant Mancs need a lesson in humility, Moyes needs to experience real pressure.

[London Blue]

Our possession and passing are indeed very pleasing, and I think it is just a matter of time before we start scoring goals. One players like Jela and Kone start feeling at home with the system and get some confidence I can see us getting good results.

 

I think another reason that we are not winning games is that Mirallas and especially Osman are out of form. While I believe it is only a matter of time before Mirallas plays himself into form, I believe Osman's legs have gone, I don't believe that he no longer has the stamina or physical qualities anymore to compete for a starting place, and should be a sub only.

 

With Fellani going we desperately need not only McCarthy, but a another defensive midfielder, I would also love to see Ince here to give us another option on the wings, as well as Holtby who now seems surplus as spurs.

 

The next 2 days and few months will be exciting and I believe that we will start seeing the benefits of the possession and passing accuracy in terms of results.

[Mike Preece]

To Newty 82.

 

I don't know how to quote properly, but I have to say what a fantastic post, ive seen some crackers since joining Toffee Talk.

but yours is the best one ive come across yet.

 

So well thought, balanced, well reasoned and clearly you did your homework, simply a brilliant and very interesting top quality posting.

 

Hats off and respect to you, will keep an eye out for your posts. if anyone comes back with sarcasm over my praise then bollocks

to them. your post deserves every bit of appreciation.. Well done mate.

[Newty82]

Cheers for that Mike, I dont post much to be honest.

 

Matt...fair point about the goals thing. But remember that, like any competitive sport, its about winning, and definately not losing. Your right that spain didnt look at their best, only 8 goals etc...if I remember right, they played with no striker at times? But they won. The opposition cant do much without the ball. Id rather win this way than do a Wimbledon!!!

 

And as far as scoring goes, it will come. Kone will get match fit. And fitness does come into it...fitness doesnt just effect how long you can run both distance and time wise, it also affects your mental sharpness...a 1% drop isnt much for the average fan who lives on beer n pies, but for a top level athlete it is a hell of a lot. Jelavic I cant explain...but confidence, or lack of, can be a bad thing in a normal walk of life, god knows what its like when your being scrutinised by thousands of people who know everything about being a pro' footballer....!!!

[Matt]

whilst winning is definitely the objective, it needs to be exciting too. Otherwise, whats the point in watching the game? Just check out the result at the end and you know if youve won or not. I dont see the point in winning if youre bored shitless throughout the game. Id say the game is more important for those reasons, but honestly I want both exciting football and winning. Greedy, maybe, but that what I want

[Hafnia]

Boring to me is watching our centre halves hoof the ball up to Fellaini. Getting 1-0 up and sitting back to end up drawing the game.

 

Our team is going through the equivalent of a golfer learning a new swing. It ain't gonna happen overnight.

 

I have seen enough to suggest that we need different personel - starting with McCarthy in midfield. A new striker instead of jelavic to provide competition to kone.

[Matt]

Boring to me is watching our centre halves hoof the ball up to Fellaini. Getting 1-0 up and sitting back to end up drawing the game.

 

Our team is going through the equivalent of a golfer learning a new swing. It ain't gonna happen overnight.

 

I have seen enough to suggest that we need different personel - starting with McCarthy in midfield. A new striker instead of jelavic to provide competition to kone.

You rate McCarthy?

[Hafnia]

You rate McCarthy?

I take it the sarcastic font is needed? (Assuming you've read my posts on him).

 

Highly rate McCarthy, as a "footballer" he's a better option than Fellaini. He turns the ball over, keeps it moving, sets a tempo, far more nippy and mobile than Fellaini.

 

Fellaini is clearly the better physical option but in a Martinez team he's as much use as a fart in a thunderstorm.

[Matt]

I take it the sarcastic font is needed? (Assuming you've read my posts on him).

 

Highly rate McCarthy, as a "footballer" he's a better option than Fellaini. He turns the ball over, keeps it moving, sets a tempo, far more nippy and mobile than Fellaini.

 

Fellaini is clearly the better physical option but in a Martinez team he's as much use as a fart in a thunderstorm.

Yes, very sarcastic since youve dropped his name into every post youve made since June

[Brett Angel]

Well in newt. Took the words out of my mouth.... Everything is spot on, the only dissapointing thing is whatever gets said, you will never change the opinions of those knee jerk supporters.... They were happy beating three average sides with long ball bullish tactics only to be beaten convincingly by top four sides whilst hoofing itup and defending for 90 minutes... This way we can go into these games knowing we can easy match them. Am looking at the bigger picture.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Brett Angel

[pete0]

I take it the sarcastic font is needed? (Assuming you've read my posts on him).

 

Highly rate McCarthy, as a "footballer" he's a better option than Fellaini. He turns the ball over, keeps it moving, sets a tempo, far more nippy and mobile than Fellaini.

 

Fellaini is clearly the better physical option but in a Martinez team he's as much use as a fart in a thunderstorm.

We've conceded 2 goals in 3 games, the opposition are getting less chances than ever against us. Felli is doing a fine job.

[Newty82]

We've conceded 2 goals in 3 games, the opposition are getting less chances than ever against us. Felli is doing a fine job.

I agree here, he is doing fine. I just think that if he was 100% into it, he'd be doing great. Nothing against him, glad to have had him here, but cant blame him for wanting to go to the next level.

 

Matt...I also want to have the goals and brill gameplay. That will come. I think we have played this way because of how the opposition had set out, as in WBA and Cardiff, who's managers have pretty much admitted what their intention and/or priority has been.

 

It will click into place properly once this lunacy that is the transfer window closes and RM knows for sure what he has at his dispossal...at the moment he is putting some good energy into man managing fellaini and baines, keeping them focused etc...which must be tricky with all the rumours.

 

Once it closes, another new era begins....

[Matt]

I agree here, he is doing fine. I just think that if he was 100% into it, he'd be doing great. Nothing against him, glad to have had him here, but cant blame him for wanting to go to the next level.

 

Matt...I also want to have the goals and brill gameplay. That will come. I think we have played this way because of how the opposition had set out, as in WBA and Cardiff, who's managers have pretty much admitted what their intention and/or priority has been.

 

It will click into place properly once this lunacy that is the transfer window closes and RM knows for sure what he has at his dispossal...at the moment he is putting some good energy into man managing fellaini and baines, keeping them focused etc...which must be tricky with all the rumours.

 

Once it closes, another new era begins....

Im sure it will come (well, Im hoping anyway!), and Ive already held my hands up admitting im impatient. But saying its not that bad because West Brom and Cardiff setup the way they did, thats not an excuse for me. It was the same with Moyes, we failed to break down teams even when we dominated the games. Teams setup to negate our way of playing so we resulted in long balls (it wasnt as often as some believe) which at least gave us a chance of a ball breaking lose. It wasnt pretty but it worked better than passing it back to the 2 CBs in our own half.

 

When teams setup to stop our passing, we need another tactic to break them down. Im not saying revert to hitting long balls, though there is a time and place for that, but we need something else.

 

We should have had 9 points from these 3 games, not disrespecting our opposition. Youve quoted the stats yourself, looks great on paper but we need something different to turn 3 draws into 3 wins. Id personally prefer to go through the middle more often, but we need a player who can do that I guess.

 

Wonder if Haf can think of someone.....

 

 

 

[Hafnia]

We've conceded 2 goals in 3 games, the opposition are getting less chances than ever against us. Felli is doing a fine job.

£23m worth? Not for me.

[c1982]

Good analysis Newty82... the main thing for me is Martinez is doing what he does (I'm all for this) but with Moyes' players who have been used to a totally different style. Martinez needs to bring in his own players and the only way he can do this is to sell Fellaini and/or Baines.

 

The sale of Fellaini doesn't worry me as I know we can get quality in to replace him. The sale of Baines does worry me, if Danny Rose/Ryan Bertrand were to replace him then I'd be a little less worried.

[StevO]

We won't see the best of this system for at least another year I don't think. I still think we will see improvements after the window one way or another.

[Cornish Steve]

good post Newty. For me the only stats that matter is goals scored and goals conceded.

 

 

With only three games played, I disagree with this. Look at ManU. In their first game, they won 4-1. When you look at the stats, though, the score did not reflect the balance of play. This has become evident in their most recent two game - no goals and just one point. Over the longer term, the number of goals for and against reflect the more fundamental stats - pass completion, chances created, amount of possession - so that's what we should continue to focus on.

[Romey 1878]

I think we all knew there'd be some pain at the start. I just hope that the pain is worth it in the end and that the pain doesn't last too long.

[London Blue]

I think we all knew there'd be some pain at the start. I just hope that the pain is worth it in the end and that the pain doesn't last too long.

I think we will be fine, once we have the transfer window out of the way we will know who we have and they can concentrate on the new system. With the posession and chances we are creating we will win games.

 

Lets face it we are normally crap at the start of a season (last year being a welcome aberration), people shouldn't look at the table until October.

Edited September 1, 2013 by London Blue

[Quinn31]

I wonder if a year or two from now if we'll have mostly Spanish speaking players, similar to Newcastle (although their squad is heavily French). Just a curious thought.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Quinn31

[pete0]

Doubt it, RM didn't take that many to Wigan. Plus Liverpool have already bought them all.