Lacina Traore

[Sibdane]

I'm not arrogant or ignorant I gave my opinion and that's all if lacina stays I will want him to be a hit I assure you and I'll hold my hands up and say I'm wrong.

Ps I would never call anyone on this forum ignorant or arrogant.

 

Fair play.

 

thats just not true.

 

I agree with you. I've never been to an Everton game unfortunately, but I have been to loads of matches in the States. I go home from the match all the time having one view of the performance, but then when I go back and look at replays from different angles, I realize just how much I can miss.

 

My eyes don't have the benefit of rewinding what I'm seeing in the game, but my DVR does.

[Cornish Steve]

Ps I would never call anyone on this forum ignorant or arrogant.

 

You'd have to be either ignorant or arrogant to do that.

 

I agree that you can only ever create one first impression, so it's an important factor. In this case, though, there are so many mitigating circumstances: New player, new team, new teammates, new style of play, new country, new league, coming off injury, .... And the guy did score a goal! For sure, I wouldn't rule someone out after just one appearance like that - especially when so much groundwork will have been done by the scouting team.

[Cornish Steve]

 

Fair play.

 

 

I agree with you. I've never been to an Everton game unfortunately, but I have been to loads of matches in the States. I go home from the match all the time having one view of the performance, but then when I go back and look at replays from different angles, I realize just how much I can miss.

 

My eyes don't have the benefit of rewinding what I'm seeing in the game, but my DVR does.

 

Honestly, I can see so much more watching games on TV than in person - because of the different angles and the replays. It's true that the camera does not focus on players when they are off the ball, and being in situ helps with that, but that doesn't rule out the value of watching a broadcast.

[Sibdane]

 

Honestly, I can see so much more watching games on TV than in person - because of the different angles and the replays. It's true that the camera does not focus on players when they are off the ball, and being in situ helps with that, but that doesn't rule out the value of watching a broadcast.

 

Definitely. There are things you are taking away from each aspect of viewing the game.

 

That's why I trust our scouting team; they watch the games in person and also go through the extensive footage of players that we are interested in as well.

[MC11]

I'm with Patto. If you choose to watch a certain player at a game you can. You don't just follow the ball like on TV it makes a huge difference.

[MC11]

So just to summarize your point:

Watching Lacina Traore for 16 minutes in Goodison gives you a far better perspective of what he brings to the table than anyone who could have watched from home. However, Roberto Martinez and the entire coaching & scouting staff, who have tapped into their resources and scouted him for years, have worked with him on the training ground, have spoken with him and his past managers, have spoken with Kone, who has played internationally with him... you're still able to evaluate Traore enough to undermine their opinion that he's a worthwhile addition purely because you watched him for 16 minutes at Goodison. I'm not sure if you're ignorant or just arrogant.

 

What the hell is with this 16minutes lark??? He played 61 minutes of the game, whilst scoring a goal looked absolutely nowhere near the quality expected.

 

The news that this was financial help from one friend to another cements that he really isn't a £10-£20m player.

[Ant1979]

I'm with Patto. If you choose to watch a certain player at a game you can. You don't just follow the ball like on TV it makes a huge difference.

You pay all that money for your ticket then just watch one player run around do you? Not following the action unless they have the ball? Hmmm...

 

Personally, as has already been stated by others, it is beneficial to watch live and also watch the footage to get the full perspective on a player's performance. As TonkaRoost has said, that's what the scouts are paid for and I won't claim to be a better judge than them or the coaches

[Sibdane]

What the hell is with this 16minutes lark??? He played 61 minutes of the game, whilst scoring a goal looked absolutely nowhere near the quality expected.

 

The news that this was financial help from one friend to another cements that he really isn't a £10-£20m player.

 

Then I guess it's a good thing we didn't play 10-20m for him then. How does his transfer price reflect what he is worth to us when we're the ones who haven't even paid the transfer fee? To me, his transfer cost is irrelevant to us because it's a sunk cost (and it's not even recorded on our books, since he's not our player).

 

I get we are paying wages, but bringing players in is always a risk, and Traore has done a lot more in his first game than a lot of other players have. I hope we keep him through next season. I really think he can add a different dimension to our game.

 

I get first impressions, but what was your first impression of him in Russia? Or do you not have an idea how he played because you weren't there in person?

[Ant1979]

I remember watching Samba's debut for Blackburn, I had never seen such an inept donkey, absolutely woeful. It wasn't long before he was a first pick, then always linked to bigger clubs including Arsenal, before moving to Russia for £100k a week. Not saying he's the best defender in the world, but if we only gave players one game before condemning them, there would be a fair few that would come back to bite you in the ass

[MC11]

You pay all that money for your ticket then just watch one player run around do you? Not following the action unless they have the ball? Hmmm...

Personally, as has already been stated by others, it is beneficial to watch live and also watch the footage to get the full perspective on a player's performance. As TonkaRoost has said, that's what the scouts are paid for and I won't claim to be a better judge than them or the coaches

Hahaha. It's called a new signing playing,! and yes for anyone who goes the game they will agree that you take an extra note in that player! It's just fact

[MC11]

Then I guess it's a good thing we didn't play 10-20m for him then. How does his transfer price reflect what he is worth to us when we're the ones who haven't even paid the transfer fee? To me, his transfer cost is irrelevant to us because it's a sunk cost (and it's not even recorded on our books, since he's not our player).

 

I get we are paying wages, but bringing players in is always a risk, and Traore has done a lot more in his first game than a lot of other players have. I hope we keep him through next season. I really think he can add a different dimension to our game.

 

I get first impressions, but what was your first impression of him in Russia? Or do you not have an idea how he played because you weren't there in person?

Of course it's recorded on our books

[MC11]

Then I guess it's a good thing we didn't play 10-20m for him then. How does his transfer price reflect what he is worth to us when we're the ones who haven't even paid the transfer fee? To me, his transfer cost is irrelevant to us because it's a sunk cost (and it's not even recorded on our books, since he's not our player).

 

I get we are paying wages, but bringing players in is always a risk, and Traore has done a lot more in his first game than a lot of other players have. I hope we keep him through next season. I really think he can add a different dimension to our game.

 

I get first impressions, but what was your first impression of him in Russia? Or do you not have an idea how he played because you weren't there in person?

Never seen him play in Russia but those who do we'll in the Russian league tend to flop here. You with me?

[Matt]

I'm with Patto. If you choose to watch a certain player at a game you can. You don't just follow the ball like on TV it makes a huge difference.

it makes no difference whether youre there in person or on TV; if you chose to follow the ball, you choose to follow the ball. If you chose to follow a player, then I conceed, you dont have the limitation of the camera to provide coverage but then, why are you at the game to watch one player?! Thats what scouts are for.

 

On the 60 minute issue and why its bullshit to judge a player on 60 minutes. Lets say youve never seen Barkley play and know nothing about him. Based on the 76 minutes he played against Liverpool, rushed back from injury mind you, would you say he was shit?

[MC11]

it makes no difference whether youre there in person or on TV; if you chose to follow the ball, you choose to follow the ball. If you chose to follow a player, then I conceed, you dont have the limitation of the camera to provide coverage but then, why are you at the game to watch one player?! Thats what scouts are for.

 

On the 60 minute issue and why its bullshit to judge a player on 60 minutes. Lets say youve never seen Barkley play and know nothing about him. Based on the 76 minutes he played against Liverpool, rushed back from injury mind you, would you say he was shit?

Stop rambling on. The fact is when we sign a new player I personally like to have a good look at them and yes sometimes I won't follow the ball. I go the game I do what I do. Edited April 24, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Ant1979]

Never seen him play in Russia but those who do we'll in the Russian league tend to flop here. You with me?

Can't beat a good generalisation. Let's hope McGeady is the exception to your well-informed 'rule' then

[MC11]

Can't beat a good generalisation. Let's hope McGeady is the exception to your well-informed 'rule' then

He didn't do we'll in Russia

[Ant1979]

He didn't do we'll in Russia

Yes he did. Until he decided he wanted to leave and fell out with the club

[Matt]

Stop rambling on. The fact is when we sign a new player I personally like to have a good look at the, and yes sometimes I won't follow the ball. I go the game I do what I do.

Im not rambling :dont know: People are claiming you can judge a player after 60 minutes and, on first impression, and write them off. I provide a similar case to prove you cant.

 

I agree, when we get someone in I like to see what theyre like. Based on 60 minutes, its simply not possible unless knee-jerk analysis is all thats required to judge someone.

[MC11]

You are. You're trying to discredit mine and Patto opinion that we don't think he's very good. On that performance I don't rate him.

 

It's like when you were a kid and you got a trial for your local district. You get an hour to impress. Unfortunately if you don't impress in that hour you don't get picked.

 

All I'm saying is he didn't look very good.

[Matt]

You are. You're trying to discredit mine and Patto opinion that we don't think he's very good. On that performance I don't rate him.

 

It's like when you were a kid and you got a trial for your local district. You get an hour to impress. Unfortunately if you don't impress in that hour you don't get picked.

 

All I'm saying is he didn't look very good.

Apologies, maybe im being to stubborn and misunderstanding (got the flu so im not exactly 100%). Im not trying to discredit your opinion, thats not my intent, Im trying to understand the reasoning behind it and challenging the flaws I see, hence the Barkley comparision. Not rating him on that performance I can understand, but the generalization based on that 60 minutes I dont understand.

[Hafnia]

Unless you are scouting a player then TV or stadium makes no difference, if anything TV helps in a general viewing as you get the best seat.

 

Scouting a player means you aren't following play and the ball, why the fuck would a fan pay 30 quid to do that?

[Hafnia]

He didn't do we'll in Russia

He was well liked in Russia, fell out with manager etc.

[Kant]

Unless you are scouting a player then TV or stadium makes no difference, if anything TV helps in a general viewing as you get the best seat.

 

Scouting a player means you aren't following play and the ball, why the fuck would a fan pay 30 quid to do that?

I can't agree. It makes a difference, you can watch how the player moves when the other team attacks, if he makes runs off the ball, his body language, etc.

 

For example, I never knew how good David Villa (at that time a young uncapped forward) was until I went to see Valencia play and saw him live. He was constantly making runs, giving options to the midfielders and he was the reference of the team, causing havoc. I don't think you can see and feel that on TV. Yes, if you watch the game on TV you can get an idea, but you would miss many important things.

For me the more you get involved, the more you get to see. It will never be the same to: watch highlights < the whole game < the whole season (TV) < season ticket holder < be a lifelong fan.

 

The great thing about football is that we're fans and we can do whatever we want.

[MC11]

Unless you are scouting a player then TV or stadium makes no difference, if anything TV helps in a general viewing as you get the best seat.

Scouting a player means you aren't following play and the ball, why the fuck would a fan pay 30 quid to do that?

When did anyone say the whole 90minutes they follow one player. When a new player comes in people tend to look at said player a lot more than they would a long term player. That is just fact and I've always done it. Of course I still follow the game but I also watch said player like a hawk "to see if he's any good"

[Hafnia]

 

Let's get to brass tacks here, there are many who highly rate players and totally hate the idea of signing players who they have never seen in the flesh.... Now all of a sudden watching them in the flesh counts???

 

Rumourama needs to have a qualification criteria before someone says "oh yeah I really rate that unknow Azerbaijan centre half who plays in the Dutch second division" or "cleverley is shite, hope we don't sign him, I watched him against olympiacos"

[Shukes]

Unless you are scouting a player then TV or stadium makes no difference, if anything TV helps in a general viewing as you get the best seat.

 

Scouting a player means you aren't following play and the ball, why the fuck would a fan pay 30 quid to do that?

Agree.

 

Theres a certain amount of naivity with people that go to games at times. I have been to Goodison m ore times than i can remember but i also understand that;

 

1, that doesnt make me a better judge than anyone who does not go.

 

2. it makes me priveleged.

 

3. it gives me one perspective and no second chance.

 

On the other hand it also gives me a chance to see whats not on camera, like the players talking.

 

Back on the subject of Traore, i didn't think he was as bad as many made out and i think time has been against him as some are remembering what the want to.

His touch was off, this could be match fitness, new league and even trying to hard... ala Barkley.

His work rate was low, again could be match fitness after an injury.

his positioning was average. new team, new team mates and new play style. so actually could maybe deserve credit here?

Scored a goal on his debut.

 

He is on a loan deal from Monaco. If he was an embarrassing mistake then here is thier chance to quietly allow him to leave for a low price.

If they rate him then a loan is the best we will achieve this season.

 

Conclussion. 61 minutes is in no way a fair time to judge him. It's plenty of time to make an opinion though and thats where people are making mistakes. Everyone is entitled to rate him or doubt him after seeing him a second. Just dont judge until he has had a fair chance to show himself.

[MC11]

Let's get to brass tacks here, there are many who highly rate players and totally hate the idea of signing players who they have never seen in the flesh.... Now all of a sudden watching them in the flesh counts???

Rumourama needs to have a qualification criteria before someone says "oh yeah I really rate that unknow Azerbaijan centre half who plays in the Dutch second division" or "cleverley is shite, hope we don't sign him, I watched him against olympiacos"

Not with you one bit?

 

The fact here is me and Patto went to the game at Swansea and thought Traore looked shite. It's our opinion.

 

This has now turned into a debate about going the game or not. Well I have a season ticket for home games I don't go enough away games to say I go every game. However I also watch games on the tele and Its my opinion you can get a better look at a player from the stands than you can get from a TV set. It's an opinion again.

 

It looks here as though again this is about people who go the game and don't. If you don't go the game you surely can't have an opinion on which is better.

[Shukes]

Guys its simple.

 

Different perspective. I do both, watch tv and go to matches. neither makes me more of an expert. actually picking up a football and playing in a team helps more!

 

opinions can be made from your own experiences or others.

 

Did anyone ever see Fergusons last hat trick? i watched it live and thought he bundled a couple or mishit them and his header was a bullet. I watched it on TV later and it looked like a class hat trick. different perspective thats all.

 

Lets cut the going to a match v watching tv argument as Elitism should be left for Man U and Reds fans, lets not tar ourselves with the same eh!

 

I watched Traore on TV and he didnt seem that bad, but he didnt seem that good either so i'll hold off and give him a Naismith.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Guys its simple.

 

Different perspective. I do both, watch tv and go to matches. neither makes me more of an expert. actually picking up a football and playing in a team helps more!

 

opinions can be made from your own experiences or others.

 

Did anyone ever see Fergusons last hat trick? i watched it live and thought he bundled a couple or mishit them and his header was a bullet. I watched it on TV later and it looked like a class hat trick. different perspective thats all.

 

Lets cut the going to a match v watching tv argument as Elitism should be left for Man U and Reds fans, lets not tar ourselves with the same eh!

 

I watched Traore on TV and he didnt seem that bad, but he didnt seem that good either so i'll hold off and give him a Naismith.

 

 

 

Lol it was sounding good until you totally blew it at the end!

[Sibdane]

Of course it's recorded on our books

 

How is his transfer fee to Monaco recorded on our books? :dont know: