MikeO Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Problem is that almost every other team in the PL will be able to outbid us for any decent players. Both transfer fees and wages. Why? We were eighth or ninth in the last table I saw on average salaries paid. And (as has been continually pointed out) if lesser clubs want to spend stupid money on average players then great, I'll be very glad if we're not a part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Why? We were eighth or ninth in the last table I saw on average salaries paid. And (as has been continually pointed out) if lesser clubs want to spend stupid money on average players then great, I'll be very glad if we're not a part of it. Plus, other teams out bidding us for average players has been going on for a long time, and (bar last year) its not made much of a difference position wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 You're worried about the same Newcastle that just narrowly avoided relegation and can hardly get their shit together? And the current workings of West Ham have nothing to do with us. They've essentially been gifted a giant new stadium. Them not having to pay much of anything isn't our problem. Sure, we would love to be gifted a stadium. I'm sure we would use that to our advantage if Liverpool brought in a major event that necessitated the building of such a thing. But, the city hasn't. And, that's not our fucking problem. It's be nice if everything was rainbows, lollipops and big ass titties, but you're an Everton fan. That's not our lot. you're missing the point joe. they have a massive stadium and tv money to spend. ashley is a tit but he won't be there forever (unlike our board). they could be top 5 easy. Have done for a couple of decades nearly...and look at all the success it's got them. again before the TV money mike! now they have a massive stadium and tv money! we have a broken old stadium, kitbag, debt and the tv money's disappearing with the arteta money. Problem is that almost every other team in the PL will be able to outbid us for any decent players. Both transfer fees and wages. exactly. becuase their commercial revenues and matchday revenues (big stadiums newcastle, west ham, etc) will be dwarfing ours. that plus the tv money and we'll be the west bromwich of the premier league. it's not an overnight thing joe and mike, it's gradual. 5 years from now we could be fighting for relegation every season with little to no revenue, still a lot of debt, and the money other squads are getting to spend on players, we have to use to fund all our obligations sans players. it's a vicious cycle and it's not a healthy way to run a business or club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 5 years ago people were saying the same thing, Mark. Fact of the matter is, we have no idea what the finances are like so why panic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 5 years ago people were saying the same thing, Mark. Fact of the matter is, we have no idea what the finances are like so why panic? cause we as fans need to do something about it. get a petition going, pressure the board, etc. this malaise and general "elstone sucks and is ruining us and bill won't open the checkbook, but oh well i'll go drink and not do anything" by not doing anything we're telling them it's okay and were fine with the way things are. We are a fucking awesome club, we deserve a board that feels the same! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 cause we as fans need to do something about it. get a petition going, pressure the board, etc. this malaise and general "elstone sucks and is ruining us and bill won't open the checkbook, but oh well i'll go drink and not do anything" by not doing anything we're telling them it's okay and were fine with the way things are. We are a fucking awesome club, we deserve a board that feels the same! We had that, it was called the Blue Union and it was an embarrassment. I get the frustration, I really do, but there are so many elements to this discussion. Back to the original point - spending more doesn't guarantee the likes of Wham, Sunderland, Stoke, Spurs etc will outperform us. In fact, bar last season its only been Spurs who have (narrowly) beaten us to a higher position in a long time, and I can't remember the last time they won anything either. Anyway, I don't care about the other teams spending, I care about our team spending and, whilst I'd love an open cheque book to flash the cash, I'd still rather buy the right players for the club, who aren't necessarily that expensive. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) We had that, it was called the Blue Union and it was an embarrassment. I get the frustration, I really do, but there are so many elements to this discussion. Back to the original point - spending more doesn't guarantee the likes of Wham, Sunderland, Stoke, Spurs etc will outperform us. In fact, bar last season its only been Spurs who have (narrowly) beaten us to a higher position in a long time, and I can't remember the last time they won anything either. Anyway, I don't care about the other teams spending, I care about our team spending and, whilst I'd love an open cheque book to flash the cash, I'd still rather buy the right players for the club, who aren't necessarily that expensive. thank you for understanding matt. i understand spending more doesn't guarantee success. but for clubs with already good stadium, debt ratio, etc it will make it a LOT easier. I'm interested in our players as well, just growing tired of being the "punching above our weight" side. Edited July 8, 2015 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The reality is there are a lot better business modules than our club out there. We would need a massive injection to change our fortunes, relocation etc. But we are in the premier league and one of the top half teams. If other teams overtake us...then I will still love Everton just as much. Money does not make trophy and success. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Look at the players in our squad and look at the players at West Ham, Newcastle, etc. Tell me if you honestly would rather have their squad's players over ours. They are outspending us, sure. But, I wouldn't trade in the backbone of our team for theirs, or Spurs' for that matter. There are a few players between the three clubs that would slot in and improve us (Eriksen, Lloris, Adrian, Chadli, and perhaps Payet). But, position for position, we are stronger than West Ham, Newcastle, Sunderland, Stoke, Southampton, Hull, and QPR, all of whom have been outspending us. Talent-wise, we are right there with Tottenham and the shite, who have perennially "splashed the cash" on players who don't make the grade, just because they are hot commodities. I know we don't dominate the headlines like they do, but our core is just as good as theirs and we've done it for a lot less money. We don't have to accept the "way things are" and play the big money game to be competitive. I know that the sums being thrown around are intimidating. But, what matters is results, and we can get results without breaking the bank by being smart. Also, side note, Mark, I don't know if your quip about the TV money disappearing like the Arteta money was a joke or not. But, if it wasn't, you need to reassess. Money isn't disappearing. We have financial realities to deal with. We don't operate in a nouveau riche way, receiving a giant cheque and going about spending it all immediately on frivolous things, while we forget that we have other things we are still paying for. We are focused on stability and eliminating financial risk. Sometimes, like in the case of Finch Farm and kitbag deals, we have been too conservative. But, hindsight is always 20/20. Would we have done those deals had we known how bloated the current TV contracts would be? Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The reality is there are a lot better business modules than our club out there. We would need a massive injection to change our fortunes, relocation etc. its not hard to have a better business model to be fair! My point is, despite these better business models, a lot of the clubs are still less successful. Sunderland, for example, with their (relatively) new ground, massive short sponsorship and usual cash splashing in the market should be CL contenders. As should Spurs. But neither are in reality. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Look at the players in our squad and look at the players at West Ham, Newcastle, etc. Tell me if you honestly would rather have their squad's players over ours. They are outspending us, sure. But, I wouldn't trade in the backbone of our team for theirs, or Spurs' for that matter. There are a few players between the three clubs that would slot in and improve us (Eriksen, Lloris, Adrian, Chadli, and perhaps Payet). But, position for position, we are stronger than West Ham, Newcastle, Sunderland, Stoke, Southampton, Hull, and QPR, all of whom have been outspending us. Talent-wise, we are right there with Tottenham and the shite, who have perennially "splashed the cash" on players who don't make the grade, just because they are hot commodities. I know we don't dominate the headlines like they do, but our core is just as good as theirs and we've done it for a lot less money. We don't have to accept the "way things are" and play the big money game to be competitive. I know that the sums being thrown around are intimidating. But, what matters is results, and we can get results without breaking the bank by being smart. Also, side note, Mark, I don't know if your quip about the TV money disappearing like the Arteta money was a joke or not. But, if it wasn't, you need to reassess. Money isn't disappearing. We have financial realities to deal with. We don't operate in a nouveau riche way, receiving a giant cheque and going about spending it all immediately on frivolous things, while we forget that we have other things we are still paying for. We are focused on stability and eliminating financial risk. Sometimes, like in the case of Finch Farm and kitbag deals, we have been too conservative. But, hindsight is always 20/20. Would we have done those deals had we known how bloated the current TV contracts would be? Probably not. i'm talking mostly about the mis-managment of the club affecting the players we get/retain etc. I get your point about the financial realities, but the reality there is Bill K and Boobie Earl are the ones that put us in the shitty positions! we're trusting them to bring us out? Selling finch farm only to rent it back at jacked up rate is dumb, a fifth grader knows better than that! I was optimistic about the debt, saw we were moving in the right direction with the financials, only to see the only reason we turned a profit was the fellaini/anichebe sales and they said it would dip again cause we haven't sold anymore. TV money and all and we're still a selling club. How does 80 million go missing? we were fine without it, we get it, and business as usual. That's sketchy man, with that much cash we could have paid the debt off immediately. we could have put that into the build a stadium fund. but it's "no money for stadium, still in debt, etc." where the F is the money lebowski!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I get the frustration, I really do, but there are so many elements to this discussion. Back to the original point - spending more doesn't guarantee the likes of Wham, Sunderland, Stoke, Spurs etc will outperform us. In fact, bar last season its only been Spurs who have (narrowly) beaten us to a higher position in a long time, and I can't remember the last time they won anything either. Our manager got Wigan relegated exactly because everyone else outspent them. That or he's not a very good manager, take your pick. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Our manager got Wigan relegated exactly because everyone else outspent them. That or he's not a very good manager, take your pick. He also won a trophy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Exactly. Newcastle have a large one as well. Spurs and Chelsea building a new one and doing upgrades. We're still trying to find 50 quid in the coach cushions to get a player on loan. Didn't they get relegated whilst playing in that very same stadium? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Our manager got Wigan relegated exactly because everyone else outspent them. That or he's not a very good manager, take your pick.youre not really comparing Wigan to Everton, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Didn't they get relegated whilst playing in that very same stadium? no tv money then mate. i'm talking only about tv money era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 no tv money then mate. i'm talking only about tv money era.think you need to be more specific. TV money had been around for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) think you need to be more specific. TV money had been around for decades. this graph shows well. relative growth up to the 2013-2016 deal. which is the current one we are in and i'm talking about. it nearly doubled from previous years (where it held at a steady rate). http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/31357409 the new deal on 2016-2019 nearly doubles the current deal. we better be out of debt and working on that stadium with that massive windfall. Edited July 8, 2015 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Ok, but talking 2 years in football is a tiny period of time. Take the big picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Ok, but talking 2 years in football is a tiny period of time. Take the big picture. ok my big picture is this. in six years our tv revenue will have quadrupled. we just got 120m for tv revenue, we are in debt 28m. i fully expect to be debt free with cash to buy a stadium buy the time 2019 rolls around for another deal. 120m a year and we're being skint with transfers and rent a training ground? not sure how any of that makes sense to you guys. if i got a mortgage for 5m, and my day job doesn't change but i get an inheitance of 20m, i would pay off the 5m and have 15m leftover. with everton we get 120m pay off 17m in debt, sell 30m would have players, get lukaku 28m and 100m is missing. where is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 ok my big picture is this. in six years our tv revenue will have quadrupled. we just got 120m for tv revenue, we are in debt 28m. i fully expect to be debt free with cash to buy a stadium buy the time 2019 rolls around for another deal. 120m a year and we're being skint with transfers and rent a training ground? not sure how any of that makes sense to you guys. if i got a mortgage for 5m, and my day job doesn't change but i get an inheitance of 20m, i would pay off the 5m and have 15m leftover. with everton we get 120m pay off 17m in debt, sell 30m would have players, get lukaku 28m and 100m is missing. where is it? "Other operating costs" - Bob Elstone markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The training ground deal was done years ago so it's absurd to mention it in terms of today's TV income. The club publishes audited accounts every year so if you want to know where the money goes it's public knowledge. Every balance sheet will have "other operating costs" on it and the independent auditors will need to be satisfied they're acceptable or they won't sign them off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The training ground deal was done years ago so it's absurd to mention it in terms of today's TV income. The club publishes audited accounts every year so if you want to know where the money goes it's public knowledge. Every balance sheet will have "other operating costs" on it and the independent auditors will need to be satisfied they're acceptable or they won't sign them off. do you pay the independent auditors off in the uk the same way you do here in the US? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 it doesn't matter how much we get off sky or other revenue we remain in debt to the tune of around 25m it doesn't make sense to me. glad i'm not crazy. thanks patto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 do you pay the independent auditors off in the uk the same way you do here in the US? No idea how it works in the US. Over here a firm of independent accountants go through your books with a fine tooth comb to make sure all is above board. I was the treasurer of a charity for a few years and that was stressful enough when "I" was audited. You can look all you you like, believe whatever bollocks you want to, speculate to your hearts content and ask "where's the 'x' money Bill" but the truth is our finances are totally above board and available to anyone who wants to see them. There is no "missing" money. I'm very happy to debate with people who have a different view of the board to me and put forward rational arguments but this Blue Union style of urban myth driven drivel is really tedious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 no tv money then mate. i'm talking only about tv money era. So how is the size of a clubs stadium even remotely relevant to the amount of TV money they get? Deacs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 No idea how it works in the US. Over here a firm of independent accountants go through your books with a fine tooth comb to make sure all is above board. I was the treasurer of a charity for a few years and that was stressful enough when "I" was audited. You can look all you you like, believe whatever bollocks you want to, speculate to your hearts content and ask "where's the 'x' money Bill" but the truth is our finances are totally above board and available to anyone who wants to see them. There is no "missing" money. I'm very happy to debate with people who have a different view of the board to me and put forward rational arguments but this Blue Union style of urban myth driven drivel is really tedious. That is really very unfair of you to start bringing facts and common sense to the table :shaking fist: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 So how is the size of a clubs stadium even remotely relevant to the amount of TV money they get? you missed what i was discussing. i am talking 2013 tv money era and beyond, the size of their stadium is irrelevant to that. but it is relevant to the future of their club in addition to the tv money. that's what i was discussing. your comment on they had a big stadium when they were relegated had nothing to do with the thing i was discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) "Other operating costs" - Bob Elstone 26 million there on the books does go a ways to discovering some of it. broadcasting increased 33m and other operating increased 5m. other loans increased 8m. we've just made an extra 33m and gone 8m into further loans? tricky accounting. on the positive side, just found this http://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Everton-Football-Club/reviews apparently we are a great employer. Edited July 8, 2015 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 A few points I need to make. We don't know how much money everton do or do not have to spend on players. Just because some clubs are being public about the bids for players, it doesn't mean they have more to spend than we do. Just because we have not gone public with our bids (we very rarely do that) does not mean we are not bidding for players. The big TV money does not come in until next season. So clubs splashing the cash now have borrowed money against next summers payment. We do this every year ourselves, but pay millions in interest. We have actually signed some players already. Would it be better if we paid £20m for Gerry so we can look all flash? Should we be bidding £15m for average strikers, or £10m for average midfielders like a lot of other clubs are doing? Maybe relax, the players have only just gone back to training. Plenty is going on that we are not, and should not be, aware of. I don't trust the board to make big decisions on the future of the club. I don't trust them on a commercial level. But in terms of getting a the signings done, they are actually pretty good at it. It will be fine. Mark, this one is just for you mate. Calm the fuck down, I just lost a lot of time in my life reading your take on the current transfer situation. It's not worth worrying about, it always turns out in the end. We want players according to the rumours, the sign for other clubs, then we do better than them. It's all part of the process. Deacs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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