Beni Baningime

[Romey 1878]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/wayne-rooney-everton-derby-loan-20241875

Basically, he's not good enough.

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/wayne-rooney-everton-derby-loan-20241875

Basically, he's not good enough.

Possibly or he's not in a position to risk him yet. May be one of those high ceiling low floor players.... Schneiderlein esque

It does point to him not being good enough, I'm sure if we loaned the Tom Davies he would be first on the sheet.

[Romey 1878]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Possibly or he's not in a position to risk him yet. May be one of those high ceiling low floor players.... Schneiderlein esque

It does point to him not being good enough, I'm sure if we loaned the Tom Davies he would be first on the sheet.

He’s not even getting in the squads, Haf. If he was that good a defensive midfielder he’d at least be doing that.

It’s not even his first loan where he’s failed to make an impression, which says it all.

Our kids are just pretty poor to be honest. 

[markjazzbassist]

29 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

He’s not even getting in the squads, Haf. If he was that good a defensive midfielder he’d at least be doing that.

It’s not even his first loan where he’s failed to make an impression, which says it all.

Our kids are just pretty poor to be honest. 

obviously carlo and the first team are the most important, revenues second most, but i would hope moshiri/brands et al are taking a hard look at the academy and seeing what can be done to make it better in terms of player improvement.  our ratio of players making the team is abysmal.

[pete0]

It's rare managers give youngsters a chance when they're in a relegation scrap.

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

He’s not even getting in the squads, Haf. If he was that good a defensive midfielder he’d at least be doing that.

It’s not even his first loan where he’s failed to make an impression, which says it all.

Our kids are just pretty poor to be honest. 

I recall unsworth raving about him. I think there is a huge gap between u23 and first team.  I'd be happy with the odd youth gem to pop up, we've had the once in a lifetime one in Rooney. That's why it still stings that we sold him. 

[StevO]

9 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

 our ratio of players making the team is abysmal.

It’s really not, we are no better or worse than other premier league teams. We have this stupid expectation when players start getting in the squad that they will end up being Wayne Rooney, where just getting themselves a career in football is great for them. The reality is that if you look at the teams in the top half of the premier league you won’t find too many academy graduates, it would probably be easier to look at the England team and see how many of them are with the teams they came through. The need for instant success makes it so hard. 
We have Tom Davies in the first team on a regular basis, we had Kenny in the squad at the start of the season, some teams will struggle even for one. 
Anthony Gordon will be the next player to fade away in my opinion. Just need to get these lads in good clubs when they leave, with a decent contract and help them get a good career out of the game. 

[MikeO]

15 minutes ago, StevO said:

It’s really not, we are no better or worse than other premier league teams. We have this stupid expectation when players start getting in the squad that they will end up being Wayne Rooney, where just getting themselves a career in football is great for them. The reality is that if you look at the teams in the top half of the premier league you won’t find too many academy graduates, it would probably be easier to look at the England team and see how many of them are with the teams they came through. The need for instant success makes it so hard. 
We have Tom Davies in the first team on a regular basis, we had Kenny in the squad at the start of the season, some teams will struggle even for one. 
Anthony Gordon will be the next player to fade away in my opinion. Just need to get these lads in good clubs when they leave, with a decent contract and help them get a good career out of the game. 

And the fact is we did have Rooney come through, is there a better example of academy player going on to great things at any club (Gerrard arguably)? We also have guys like Ossie and Hibbo who were fantastic servants, academy strike rate is very low eveywhere.

[StevO]

34 minutes ago, MikeO said:

And the fact is we did have Rooney come through, is there a better example of academy player going on to great things at any club (Gerrard arguably)? We also have guys like Ossie and Hibbo who were fantastic servants, academy strike rate is very low eveywhere.

We also had Rodwell and Barkley, who if not sold, were good enough for the first team. Anichebe contributed for quite a few years under Moyes too. 

[MikeO]

13 minutes ago, StevO said:

We also had Rodwell and Barkley, who if not sold, were good enough for the first team. Anichebe contributed for quite a few years under Moyes too. 

For sure, I think if Rodwell and Barkley had stayed "at home" they'd both have had better careers, grass not always greener.

[markjazzbassist]

Greenwood rashford mctominay Lingard tuanzebe 

 

United have half a side of their academy kids (lingard on loan).  I would say we are very different from them.  

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Greenwood rashford mctominay Lingard tuanzebe 

 

United have half a side of their academy kids (lingard on loan).  I would say we are very different from them.  

Over the last twenty plus years Utd have pretty much stood out as a team who have progressed youth players into the first team, that is a massive achievement for a team that had the draw and buying power to pick the best in the world. Hats off to them. 

[c1982]

17 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

He’s not even getting in the squads, Haf. If he was that good a defensive midfielder he’d at least be doing that.

That’s not entirely down to ability though - they have too many loan players to include all in the match day squad and Beni is the one missing out. That says to me that he’d at least be in the squad if there wasn’t a limit. I’m not saying he’s any good though!

[c1982]

The quality coming out of Chelsea’s and Arsenal’s academies is incredible - people may not agree with how they do it with the stockpiling of players but let’s use Chelsea as an example - James, Tomori, Mount, Gilmour, Hudson Odoi, Abraham to name but a few - all capable of being very good Premier League players. Then there’s the likes of van Aanhalt, Traore, Ake, Bertrand and Lamptey who are all decent Premier League players who came through Chelsea’s system.

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, c1982 said:

That’s not entirely down to ability though - they have too many loan players to include all in the match day squad and Beni is the one missing out. That says to me that he’d at least be in the squad if there wasn’t a limit. I’m not saying he’s any good though!

I know but it suggests that the other loan players (are they youngsters too?) are of better quality or it’d be one of those continually missing out.

He might be better than I think, I hope he is, but the reality is that most of the kids that have been looked at coming through here just aren’t good enough (highlighted when they go out on loan and do nothing). So we need to improve the methods in the academy and get a hell of a lot better at moving players on to make money on them. Hopefully Brands will be allowed to do both. 

[StevO]

8 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Greenwood rashford mctominay Lingard tuanzebe 

 

United have half a side of their academy kids (lingard on loan).  I would say we are very different from them.  

And the other 18 clubs in the premier league?

[Shukes]

A lot of those players mentioned have been brought at teenager level by teams though. 
We could say the same about players like DCL, Godfrey, Nkoukdodododeeee ect. 
These players were initially brought for academy level, U23s.

We also have produced many premier players who we’ve sold. Lundstram for example.

[markjazzbassist]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

And the other 18 clubs in the premier league?

As @c1982 pointed out Chelsea has a bunch too.  Liverpool have them too.  Soton is famous for it.   That’s 3 top sides and a lower side.  There are more but I’m too lazy.  I realize it shouldn’t be our first priority and I’m not saying it should, but I would love to see some investment and improvement there.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

As @c1982 pointed out Chelsea has a bunch too.  Liverpool have them too.  Soton is famous for it.   That’s 3 top sides and a lower side.  There are more but I’m too lazy.  I realize it shouldn’t be our first priority and I’m not saying it should, but I would love to see some investment and improvement there.

Liverpool have Trent in the team now, and Jones on the bench. If everyone is fit their kids don’t get near that defence, because they are not good enough. 
Chelsea have got kids in their team now, but for the last 20 years they haven’t had any. The transfer ban finally got those kids a chance. 
Southampton have a reputation from it, but do we want to be as good as them?

There have been enough making it to our first team over the years. It would be nice to have more. 
There is plenty of investment gone into our academy. Look up Finch Farm and look up our old academy, it was a mess. 
We have a massive structure to our academy, it is a multi million pound part of the club. But you’ll never see six or seven home grown players in a premier league eleven anymore. It just doesn’t happen. 

[Bailey]

22 hours ago, Hafnia said:

I recall unsworth raving about him. I think there is a huge gap between u23 and first team.  I'd be happy with the odd youth gem to pop up, we've had the once in a lifetime one in Rooney. That's why it still stings that we sold him. 

Is there a player Unsworth doesn't rave about?

[Romey 1878]

He was at least on the bench today. 

[Romey 1878]

On 02/04/2021 at 20:19, Romey 1878 said:

He was at least on the bench today. 

And again.

[StevO]

Has he got off the bench in these games?

[Shukes]

Our loan players just aren’t impressing are they haha.

[markjazzbassist]

21 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Our loan players just aren’t impressing are they haha.

ive been thinking waht is the benefit of them sitting on the bench in the midlands, wouldn't playing regularly for the u23 be better?

[c1982]

25 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Our loan players just aren’t impressing are they haha.

That Kean lad is doing alright at PSG!

(...and Simms at Blackpool - they’re flying!)

[StevO]

24 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

ive been thinking waht is the benefit of them sitting on the bench in the midlands, wouldn't playing regularly for the u23 be better?

It gives them a very clear lesson on how difficult it is to be a first team footballer, at any level. I’d love them all to progress, but a season struggling to get into a lower league side could be the making of a player. Come back realising they need to work twice as hard if they want to play for Everton, or accept a longer term contract at a lower league club and fight for their career that way. It’s a harsher environment than playing for the under 23s with your mates. It’s still good for them. 

[markjazzbassist]

18 minutes ago, StevO said:

It gives them a very clear lesson on how difficult it is to be a first team footballer, at any level. I’d love them all to progress, but a season struggling to get into a lower league side could be the making of a player. Come back realising they need to work twice as hard if they want to play for Everton, or accept a longer term contract at a lower league club and fight for their career that way. It’s a harsher environment than playing for the under 23s with your mates. It’s still good for them. 

yes i agree, but i'm wondering if we are reaching, shouldn't they be in league one playing day in and out proving themselves?  then a championship side will be all over it.  plus they would actually play which is part of the whole loan thing.

[StevO]

44 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

yes i agree, but i'm wondering if we are reaching, shouldn't they be in league one playing day in and out proving themselves?  then a championship side will be all over it.  plus they would actually play which is part of the whole loan thing.

They just might not be good enough for that level. A lot of these lads will get loan opportunities because they play for a big club, when they get there they might not have what it takes. If they turn out good it’s great for the club who took them, if not they lose little. 
For many of them the loan won’t be about getting them ready to progress into our team, it will be to get them the chance to show other clubs they are worth a pro contract. A year in the championship might get a player a permanent deal at a league one club, rather than dropping out of the game all together. 

[markjazzbassist]

8 minutes ago, StevO said:

They just might not be good enough for that level. A lot of these lads will get loan opportunities because they play for a big club, when they get there they might not have what it takes. If they turn out good it’s great for the club who took them, if not they lose little. 
For many of them the loan won’t be about getting them ready to progress into our team, it will be to get them the chance to show other clubs they are worth a pro contract. A year in the championship might get a player a permanent deal at a league one club, rather than dropping out of the game all together. 

All good points and makes sense for a branthwaite type who’s played premier league and lower league and shown something.  But Beni in particular I would have thought league one or 2 should have been the aim.  Championship was always gonna be above his level, so why send him there?  Surely it’s better for him to get playing time, and better for us to sell to a league one or championship side if he doesn’t well there.  Instead he will be released for nothing.  100k is better than 0k.