General Election/UK Politics

[pete0]

21 minutes ago, Bailey said:

That tweet was from June? I don't see the relevance now?

London is one of the major transport hubs in the world. You can't compare the UK to ROI. You are losing all context, repeatedly. 

As I have said before, the evidence is Cummings wanted an earlier lockdown. The scientists are SAGE.

Again the first wave created a LOT of unknowns. No-one living in this country has had to deal with this outbreak before. Again I have quoted dates from WHO when they said there was no human to human transmission and that, not long before our lockdown, they didn't believe the virus could be spread by people who didn't have symptoms. The Government were enforcing isolation at that point. 

Schools are not a hot bed. Teachers are no more likely to get covid than any other worker. If the community has low transmission the schools are also likely to have low transmission. 

The longer schools are closed, the bigger the gap will be between the rich and the poor. All the posh kids will have the best schools and lessons via fancy kit and they too will have the technology. That isn't going to happen for poor kids. They have to be the first to go back, but only when community transmission is low. 

 

You said per population we were comparable to the rest of the European countries which isn't true. We've got similar to the poorer ill-equiped countries. 

Don't get your point on London being a major transport hub. If anything that makes the case stronger for locking the borders and isolation sooner. If Ireland locked down just before Paddy's Day what excuse do we have?

We have better infrastructure than the rest of Europe with the NHS and we have the massive advantage of being an island. It's inexcusable for people in the UK to have a 250% higher chance of dying of covid than Germany.

We're an island. We should have been safe. Why are you unwilling to compare us to Japan, new Zealand, Korea, or Australia? What makes us different? What makes it acceptable what our government did in comparison?

On a documentary last night there was a recording of Donald Trump saying how bad it is. That people are going to die. The recording was February 2nd. Our scientists urged the government to take action sooner whereas our government and "its scientists" headed by Cummings were pursuing herd immunity.

If Cummings really wanted an earlier lockdown there would have been. There was nothing to stop him implementing it earlier? FFS they even pushed eat out to help out after the first lockdown and repeatedly keep locking down later than advised.

Schools are a hotbed. You've got kids all breathing in the air in a classroom which makes them more likely to get it. They mightn't get as ill as adults but they are then going home and potentially taking the virus with them. 

Regardless of covid the education system is flawed. At best that's clutching at straws to try and justify kids going back. Read that another way. Poor kids should risk their lives and go back to school sooner than rich kids who should stay home safe. 

[pete0]

https://m.facebook.com/kirsty.geoghegan.1/posts/pcb.10219323176578645/?photo_id=10219323159418216&mds=%2Fphotos%2Fviewer%2F%3Fphotoset_token%3Dpcb.10219323176578645%26photo%3D10219323159418216%26profileid%3D692229534%26source%3D48%26refid%3D28%26_ft_%3Dqid.6919907155779588676%3Amf_story_key.-1379559851913184582%3Atop_level_post_id.10158967296437840%3Acontent_owner_id_new.585342839%3Aoriginal_content_id.10219323176578645%3Aoriginal_content_owner_id.1487449099%3Asrc.22%3Aphoto_id.10219323159418216%3Astory_location.5%3Aattached_story_attachment_style.album%3Aview_time.1611166437%3Afilter.h_nor%26__tn__%3DEHH-R%26cached_data%3Dfalse%26ftid%3D&mdp=1&mdf=1

[Matt]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/562838

[Bailey]

22 hours ago, pete0 said:

1. You said per population we were comparable to the rest of the European countries which isn't true. We've got similar to the poorer ill-equiped countries. 

2. Don't get your point on London being a major transport hub. If anything that makes the case stronger for locking the borders and isolation sooner. If Ireland locked down just before Paddy's Day what excuse do we have?

3. We have better infrastructure than the rest of Europe with the NHS and we have the massive advantage of being an island. It's inexcusable for people in the UK to have a 250% higher chance of dying of covid than Germany.

4. We're an island. We should have been safe. Why are you unwilling to compare us to Japan, new Zealand, Korea, or Australia? What makes us different? What makes it acceptable what our government did in comparison?

5.On a documentary last night there was a recording of Donald Trump saying how bad it is. That people are going to die. The recording was February 2nd. Our scientists urged the government to take action sooner whereas our government and "its scientists" headed by Cummings were pursuing herd immunity.

If Cummings really wanted an earlier lockdown there would have been. There was nothing to stop him implementing it earlier? FFS they even pushed eat out to help out after the first lockdown and repeatedly keep locking down later than advised.

6. Schools are a hotbed. You've got kids all breathing in the air in a classroom which makes them more likely to get it. They mightn't get as ill as adults but they are then going home and potentially taking the virus with them. 

7. Regardless of covid the education system is flawed. At best that's clutching at straws to try and justify kids going back. Read that another way. Poor kids should risk their lives and go back to school sooner than rich kids who should stay home safe. 

1. Evidence here... https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

2. Major transport hubs will cause the virus to be spread quicker and further. As I said previously, if the virus is already widespread (which it was), closing borders wont make much difference when the whole country is locked down. In respect of Ireland, I cannot find that they did lock down. This is from the 12th March 2020 and then the 20th March 2020:

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2020/march/tanaiste-statement-on-covid-19-travel-advice.php

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2020/march/general-travel-advisory-for-irish-citizens-traveling-overseas-.php

The second order is something that we did at sometime around the first lockdown. I haven't looked for the exact date because it is a moot point.

3. Germany has somehow managed to successfully avoid Covid. There is no real explanation for that given all the countries around it have suffered significantly. To my knowledge they didn't do anything significantly different. They didnt stop flights or travel. Why do you propose Germany didn't suffer as badly as other European countries?

4. The other countries have experience of significant disease outbreaks. They are not major transport hubs. Australia closed its borders on the 19th March 2020 when we were already rife. Its not like they took early action, they just weren't infected. Korea implied significant restrictions on people that wouldn't be acceptable here. Japan, with their experience of similar diseases promoted better messaging than European countries. These are examples and certainly not exhaustive. I imagine that the UK is a country with a much higher density of population which also wouldn't have helped.

https://www.pm.gov.au/media/border-restrictions

New Zealand closed their borders sooner but the fact that it didn't become rife in Australia in the meantime just shows how some countries just got lucky. In that same period it spread to Italy (because of close links with that area of China) and then to us (because of our close links to Italy).

5. That isn't true and I look forward to seeing your evidence. The SAGE notes are available.

6. The evidence on this is mixed. If the spread caused by kids is so bad, why are teachers no more at risk than say me sitting in an office with 20 people?

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-evidence-on-children-schools-early-learning-and-childcare-settings-and-transmission-from-covid-19---summary-report/

7. No that isn't it at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/01/disadvantaged-and-bame-pupils-lost-more-learning-study-finds

 

 

[pete0]

44 minutes ago, Bailey said:

1. Evidence here... https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

2. Major transport hubs will cause the virus to be spread quicker and further. As I said previously, if the virus is already widespread (which it was), closing borders wont make much difference when the whole country is locked down. In respect of Ireland, I cannot find that they did lock down. This is from the 12th March 2020 and then the 20th March 2020:

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2020/march/tanaiste-statement-on-covid-19-travel-advice.php

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2020/march/general-travel-advisory-for-irish-citizens-traveling-overseas-.php

The second order is something that we did at sometime around the first lockdown. I haven't looked for the exact date because it is a moot point.

3. Germany has somehow managed to successfully avoid Covid. There is no real explanation for that given all the countries around it have suffered significantly. To my knowledge they didn't do anything significantly different. They didnt stop flights or travel. Why do you propose Germany didn't suffer as badly as other European countries?

4. The other countries have experience of significant disease outbreaks. They are not major transport hubs. Australia closed its borders on the 19th March 2020 when we were already rife. Its not like they took early action, they just weren't infected. Korea implied significant restrictions on people that wouldn't be acceptable here. Japan, with their experience of similar diseases promoted better messaging than European countries. These are examples and certainly not exhaustive. I imagine that the UK is a country with a much higher density of population which also wouldn't have helped.

https://www.pm.gov.au/media/border-restrictions

New Zealand closed their borders sooner but the fact that it didn't become rife in Australia in the meantime just shows how some countries just got lucky. In that same period it spread to Italy (because of close links with that area of China) and then to us (because of our close links to Italy).

5. That isn't true and I look forward to seeing your evidence. The SAGE notes are available.

6. The evidence on this is mixed. If the spread caused by kids is so bad, why are teachers no more at risk than say me sitting in an office with 20 people?

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-evidence-on-children-schools-early-learning-and-childcare-settings-and-transmission-from-covid-19---summary-report/

7. No that isn't it at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/01/disadvantaged-and-bame-pupils-lost-more-learning-study-finds

 

 

I'm not gonna bother replying in full as you're either playing the idiot or completely indoctrinated. So I'm gonna keep it as brief as possible.

I find it hard to believe anyone thinks luck played a bigger part than leadership. Germany surrounded yet manage to magically control it. Islands dismissed as they're not in Europe or less of a "transport hub" what fucking nonsense of a defense is transport hub. Gave you a chance to explain but you haven't have yer? Because deep down you know it's fucking dribble.

Regarding sage I don't know why you're being so snug. People are dead because of this government (and the people who voted for them are just as guilty for enabling them). Cumming was at the meetings. I've shown the evidence of a letter signed by over 200 scientists calling for promoter and stronger action. Evidence is the government chose not to. You've not answered what prevented Cummings from locking down. Evidence is that they pursued herd immunity by not locking down, continually taking action later than advised and doing shit like eat out to help out or sending kids to university. A fucking link to an article doesn't dispute that. 

I'd be very surprised if you're office has any many people per metre as a school. By design a school wouldn't be able to maintain social distance. Young children especially won't understand that they can't play. Kids will interact in a closer environment so will be at more risk than the average office worker. 

I've already commented enough on education. Let's kill the poor kids and their families. Make sure their parents get back to work so they can take it to the grandparents. Make sure everyone has a good dose of the virus.

[Hafnia]

Long and short of it is the government were in an advantageous position versus other countries and blew it.

We are an island, our first tested case was a couple of weeks behind Italy.... We could and should have shut down and quarantined travellers, we should have locked down earlier and harder, we should have shut down the conspiracy pricks and had a live TV debate where their flat earth nonsense was shut down and not allowed to gain momentum.

Lack of PPE, lie after lie, billions swindled into the coffers of their pals.

We actually managed to lower the levels in the summer and get some respite after lockdown.... The warnings were there though "prepare for second spike, winter is going to be tough"

Now here we are.....

Kids going to school? Absolutely disgusting.  What for? To spread it around so it enters all the households of parents and grandparents??? The poor teachers, a friend of mine has had covid and it's knocked her for 6, she went to school to teach on that one day Williamson said was safe to do so..... We kept our kids off and low and behold my youngests class had to isolate and their teacher has been pretty poorly.

Calamity after calamity, joke of a government. I've never been political but I will never vote for that shower of evil corrupt incompetent pricks no matter how poor the opposition is. 

 

[pete0]

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/?fbclid=IwAR1GwqJzGxC9hiLQmAF1mSSrxOmE2Ze_DJSFCl5v8fk5v9tPindKAvlnXfo

[Bailey]

22 hours ago, pete0 said:

I'm not gonna bother replying in full as you're either playing the idiot or completely indoctrinated. So I'm gonna keep it as brief as possible.

I find it hard to believe anyone thinks luck played a bigger part than leadership. Germany surrounded yet manage to magically control it. Islands dismissed as they're not in Europe or less of a "transport hub" what fucking nonsense of a defense is transport hub. Gave you a chance to explain but you haven't have yer? Because deep down you know it's fucking dribble.

Regarding sage I don't know why you're being so snug. People are dead because of this government (and the people who voted for them are just as guilty for enabling them). Cumming was at the meetings. I've shown the evidence of a letter signed by over 200 scientists calling for promoter and stronger action. Evidence is the government chose not to. You've not answered what prevented Cummings from locking down. Evidence is that they pursued herd immunity by not locking down, continually taking action later than advised and doing shit like eat out to help out or sending kids to university. A fucking link to an article doesn't dispute that. 

I'd be very surprised if you're office has any many people per metre as a school. By design a school wouldn't be able to maintain social distance. Young children especially won't understand that they can't play. Kids will interact in a closer environment so will be at more risk than the average office worker. 

I've already commented enough on education. Let's kill the poor kids and their families. Make sure their parents get back to work so they can take it to the grandparents. Make sure everyone has a good dose of the virus.

Ok Pete, I have provided the evidence and you don't like it. Don't throw your toys out of the pram.

I have explained as much as I can and to support what I have said but you haven't provided evidence of anything.

A basic study on transport hubs is here which is fairly obvious.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26782122/

The point I am making, is that if you don't know plane loads of people are turning up in the country with the virus arriving every 30 seconds, the damage is already done. By the time we knew Italy was as bad as it was, the bird had flown. 

It is no co-incidence that Madrid, Paris, London and New York were the first places to be hit badly in their respective countries. They are mass transit transport hubs. When people fly into these places, then get onto a bus, train, taxi etc they are spreading the disease far and wide across the rest of the country. If those people get into the country before you realise how bad the outbreak is, closing the borders after that point when everyone is isolating anyway isn't going to make any difference.

I cannot find it at the moment but I follow John Burn-Murdoch, one of the FT date modellers and researchers on Covid-19. He is well worth following for information on the pandemic. These are people that have studied the spread of the disease extensively and are not affiliated to any party of per-determined theory.

A link to some of the tweets is as follows:

 

I am not being smug at all Pete and I actually find that quite offensive.

I don't deny Cummings was at the meetings, but that doesn't prove anything you have said.

Scientists, even now, are still debating the best way to go about things. Who exactly where those scientists by the way and what was their "science"? Why do you believe them over SAGE?

Again the evidence in Schools was previously exhibited.

I suggest you stop reading your conspiracy theory websites and stop listening to the views of people in your own little echo chamber.

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I am not being smug at all Pete and I actually find that quite offensive.

 

On 21/01/2021 at 14:44, Bailey said:

5. That isn't true and I look forward to seeing your evidence. The SAGE notes are available.

This is smug. Be offended all you want. Fact you're upset by someone calling you smug just shows how inward looking and selfish you are especially given the topic we are talking about is so much bigger. I've challenged your ideals, which in my opinion are massively flawed and I've explained why. You've given a piss poor argument back. 

Per capita new Zealand has more tourist than Britain. Hong Kong is the most visited country from China yet they coped better than us. Transport hub isn't a reasonable excuse. 

[pete0]

 

 

[MikeO]

 

[markjazzbassist]

wow haven't seen Piers Morgan since reality competition shows in the early aughts in the states.  he's a proper journalist now?  thought he was an entertainment mogul or something.

[MikeO]

15 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

wow haven't seen Piers Morgan since reality competition shows in the early aughts in the states.  he's a proper journalist now?  thought he was an entertainment mogul or something.

"Good Morning Britain" isn't really about proper journalism, it's tabloid TV, which is fitting given Morgan's writing career which is all tabloid. He does do some decent stuff now holding politicians to account which you have to grudgingly admire him for. His TV stuff is just crazy, he is zero qualified to judge "talent" so quite how he got that job is a complete mystery.

[markjazzbassist]

24 minutes ago, MikeO said:

"Good Morning Britain" isn't really about proper journalism, it's tabloid TV, which is fitting given Morgan's writing career which is all tabloid. He does do some decent stuff now holding politicians to account which you have to grudgingly admire him for. His TV stuff is just crazy, he is zero qualified to judge "talent" so quite how he got that job is a complete mystery.

Ah ok makes sense then!

[Palfy]

38 minutes ago, MikeO said:

"Good Morning Britain" isn't really about proper journalism, it's tabloid TV, which is fitting given Morgan's writing career which is all tabloid. He does do some decent stuff now holding politicians to account which you have to grudgingly admire him for. His TV stuff is just crazy, he is zero qualified to judge "talent" so quite how he got that job is a complete mystery.

Piers Morgan is like marmite I quite like marmite but not too much of it. 

[MikeO]

3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Piers Morgan is like marmite I quite like marmite but not too much of it. 

Do you like it enough to smell like it?

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, MikeO said:

Do you like it enough to smell like it?

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, Palfy said:

You may laugh but it's a real thing, Josh saw it when he was out shopping earlier

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

You may laugh but it's a real thing, Josh saw it when he was out shopping earlier

Now I’m curious Mandy hates marmite so a can of that should give me some peace and quiet when the footys on. 

[pete0]

https://goodlawproject.org/update/computacenter-laptops/?fbclid=IwAR06iZ6hN-_iA9XipFkoHyX6LxPV5penqokskaRVqb5_lmaKRW61k8JZc7A

[Bailey]

On 22/01/2021 at 15:19, pete0 said:

 

This is smug. Be offended all you want. Fact you're upset by someone calling you smug just shows how inward looking and selfish you are especially given the topic we are talking about is so much bigger. I've challenged your ideals, which in my opinion are massively flawed and I've explained why. You've given a piss poor argument back. 

Per capita new Zealand has more tourist than Britain. Hong Kong is the most visited country from China yet they coped better than us. Transport hub isn't a reasonable excuse. 

Pete that isn't smug. That is giving you the evidence, which you still haven't provided to substantiate any of your claims.

I don't see how inward and selfish it is trying to dissect the evidence to find out what went wrong. I don't want to be a part of a world that allows this to keep happening again and again, and the little patch I can touch, I will try and change for the better. I'm not just going to read what I want and regurgitate misleading articles and websites because it fits my pre-determined narrative.

I will leave it there on this thread.

 

 

[pete0]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-deaths-uk-coronavirus-cases-latest-b1792224.html?fbclid=IwAR1aBpPYjaFRQhG5CCKqKTWTZ5SmAvO21hzO1nNlLN6CwKYXfsi3JIy7GUo

 

[pete0]

Really hope they find a way. This government and their policies are responsible for 100,000s deaths even before the Pandemic.

[pete0]

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/boris-johnson-trashes-brexit-argument-for-union-7080694?fbclid=IwAR00MsNi68mrMIdnqX0PP6u_MoVAYtHpL_KtJ9zQZ1Ut7rp1BmXpmSg4wGA

[Matt]

Really hope the Scottish get their independence and join the EU again. Got a lot of Scottish heritage and would drop the English one like a stone if that happened. 

[pete0]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/bmj-lashes-out-at-uk-state-corruption-and-suppression-of-science/16/11/?fbclid=IwAR3WzSDjwHrhHG3-F-dVcfetAxgr_MNz2gJ41xq4qjb4JSDP98SXe2q8L7Q#.X90jjsGsK7N.facebook

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Really hope the Scottish get their independence and join the EU again. Got a lot of Scottish heritage and would drop the English one like a stone if that happened. 

So do I if only to make sure when they get their independence there’s a proper border with passport controls. 
But unfortunately that won’t happen the EU wouldn’t want to take the debt on that the rest of the the UK contributes to too keep the Jocks in their more money per head than the rest of the UK. 

[Matt]

Why the neg @Zoo 2.0? Just curious 

[Zoo 2.0]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

Why the neg @Zoo 2.0? Just curious 

As a rule I avoid the politics section but it's just that looking around there is division everywhere and it seems that people are wanting to solve that with yet more division. The UK has been pulled out of the EU, which has caused more division in a single country than I've ever seen in my lifetime and this is met with calls to push for Scottish independence which will divide the country further? It wouldn't surprise me if in 20 years time Manchester and Liverpool are wanting independence from England as it just seems the be the way of the world at the moment (just look across the pond and see the divides in the USA for example). 

It's nothing personal (probably shouldn't have -1'ed) but in my lifetime I don't think we've ever been as far away from the ''getting along together, happy clappy'' world that everyone supposedly strives for, everyone seems to be wanting build a wall with each other and setting fire to the bridges that history has created.

It's just sad IMO.

[Matt]

23 minutes ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

As a rule I avoid the politics section but it's just that looking around there is division everywhere and it seems that people are wanting to solve that with yet more division. The UK has been pulled out of the EU, which has caused more division in a single country than I've ever seen in my lifetime and this is met with calls to push for Scottish independence which will divide the country further? It wouldn't surprise me if in 20 years time Manchester and Liverpool are wanting independence from England as it just seems the be the way of the world at the moment (just look across the pond and see the divides in the USA for example). 

It's nothing personal (probably shouldn't have -1'ed) but in my lifetime I don't think we've ever been as far away from the ''getting along together, happy clappy'' world that everyone supposedly strives for, everyone seems to be wanting build a wall with each other and setting fire to the bridges that history has created.

It's just sad IMO.

No worries mate, like I said I’m just curious. I agree completely bar one thing. I’m for independence if means rejoining the EU. If they want independence to go it alone I don’t agree with it at all but I don’t think that’s the drive this time around (I was against it last time). my idea is for more unity and less division and I don’t want to be stuck with the ship of fools who’ve taken me away from my rights and freedoms without even allowing me a say

edit; don’t worry about the neg, I’m glad you did. If you hadn’t I wouldn’t have learnt something