Sibdane Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'm really not trying to antagonize here, but a 16 yr old Rooney would get the goals if he got the service. Anyway, ignore the goals if you want (seeing as any goal in Europe doesn't count, at least for Rom). Look at the Premier league timeline - 134 games (including Europe), 53 goals. Thats pretty flippin good and the best part, he will only get better. Then stop smoking! :shaking fist: You guys are making it sound like a 16 year Wayne Rooney is better than any striker that has ever played in the Jupiler league. To my knowledge, no striker has ever bagged in 50 goals in the Jupiler league. All I can do is shake my head and disagree. Kant, markjazzbassist and holystove 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) You guys are making it sound like a 16 year Wayne Rooney is better than any striker that has ever played in the Jupiler league. To my knowledge, no striker has ever bagged in 50 goals in the Jupiler league. All I can do is shake my head and disagree. The 16 year old Wayne Rooney was a better Wayne Rooney than he is now. Disagree all you like, not sure if you recall the 16/17year old Rooney. Took defenders on, played defence splitting passes, raw and dominant. If you don't take it from me take it from Ivan Campo, after being bullied by him in a Christmas fixture for Bolton in 2002 he stated he was as good as any player he had faced. Having played at the highest level he had a good idea. Rooney in the Jupiter league FFS?!, give your head a wobble. It's a poor standard d league, anderlecht piss it most years and they aren't much kop Edited June 24, 2015 by Hafnia MC11 and holystove 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 The 16 year old Wayne Rooney was a better Wayne Rooney than he is now. Disagree all you like, not sure if you recall the 16/17year old Rooney. Took defenders on, played defence splitting passes, raw and dominant. If you don't take it from me take it from Ivan Campo, after being bullied by him in a Christmas fixture for Bolton in 2002 he stated he was as good as any player he had faced. Having played at the highest level he had a good idea. Rooney in the Jupiter league FFS?!, give your head a wobble. It's a poor standard d league, anderlecht piss it most years and they aren't much kop Don't agree with any of the lukaku stuff, but you're spot on about Rooney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Rooney in the Jupiter league FFS?!, give your head a wobble. It's a poor standard d league, anderlecht piss it most years and they aren't much kop Different planet. Lowensda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Different planet. Ya talking out Uranus Sun Lowensda and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Yet strangely enough, the young Rooney, in a team playing about as well as we did last year only managed 17 goals in 77 appearances. And then it took him six seasons at United to get to the magical 20 Premier league goals in one season. 11 in 29, 16 in 36, 14 in 35, 12 in 27, 12 in 30, 26 in 32. Rom has 17 in 35, 15 in 31, 10 in 36. Pretty similar records I'd say for young forwards, one of these lads played their games with Giggs, Scholes, Tevez and Ronaldo. The other played with Brunt, Morrison, Pienaar and Baines. Before you rip my head off and shit down my throat Haf, I'm not saying Rom is as good as Rooney, but I am saying they aren't a million miles apart at similar ages in terms of putting the ball in the net, which is their primary job. Matt, MikeO and holystove 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yet strangely enough, the young Rooney, in a team playing about as well as we did last year only managed 17 goals in 77 appearances. And then it took him six seasons at United to get to the magical 20 Premier league goals in one season. 11 in 29, 16 in 36, 14 in 35, 12 in 27, 12 in 30, 26 in 32. Rom has 17 in 35, 15 in 31, 10 in 36. Pretty similar records I'd say for young forwards, one of these lads played their games with Giggs, Scholes, Tevez and Ronaldo. The other played with Brunt, Morrison, Pienaar and Baines. Before you rip my head off and shit down my throat Haf, I'm not saying Rom is as good as Rooney, but I am saying they aren't a million miles apart at similar ages in terms of putting the ball in the net, which is their primary job. Rooney played in a shocking Everton team! How we finished 7th I will never know, pembrridge, li tie, gemmil are you serious? In that first season he was getting 20 minutes and often used on the left. Not much changed in the next season, very rarely did we see him play central for a full game. Only when van nistelrooy was sold did Rooney get a solid run as a striker, many games again he was played on the left and that was the season that he broke his metatarsal which he did twice in two yeaes so it's not even like for like. But yeah fill ya boots. I'll continue to judge players on what I "see". Ironically the best game Rom had for us last year was one he didn't score in. I have said it many a time and I will say it again. I don't care how many penalties Rom scores, or how many he scores in Europa or how if the ball falls on his left boot in the box he scores. He is a shite footballer. If the the odd 15 goals a season pleases you to the extent that you can ignore the amount of times he concedes possession due to his inability to control a ball or pass to a team mate 15 yards away then that's your choice. For me it's unacceptable for a player to be so flawed in basic fundamental skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 The 16 year old Wayne Rooney was a better Wayne Rooney than he is now. Disagree all you like, not sure if you recall the 16/17year old Rooney. Took defenders on, played defence splitting passes, raw and dominant. If you don't take it from me take it from Ivan Campo, after being bullied by him in a Christmas fixture for Bolton in 2002 he stated he was as good as any player he had faced. Having played at the highest level he had a good idea. Rooney in the Jupiter league FFS?!, give your head a wobble. It's a poor standard d league, anderlecht piss it most years and they aren't much kop I don't disagree that 16-year old Rooney was talented. I also don't disagree that the Jupiter League is a poor league. But I don't think a 16 year-old Rooney gets even 30 goals in one league season if he's in Belgium. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yet strangely enough, the young Rooney, in a team playing about as well as we did last year only managed 17 goals in 77 appearances. And then it took him six seasons at United to get to the magical 20 Premier league goals in one season. 11 in 29, 16 in 36, 14 in 35, 12 in 27, 12 in 30, 26 in 32. Rom has 17 in 35, 15 in 31, 10 in 36. Pretty similar records I'd say for young forwards, one of these lads played their games with Giggs, Scholes, Tevez and Ronaldo. The other played with Brunt, Morrison, Pienaar and Baines. Before you rip my head off and shit down my throat Haf, I'm not saying Rom is as good as Rooney, but I am saying they aren't a million miles apart at similar ages in terms of putting the ball in the net, which is their primary job. Stats mean nothing , unless they are Haf stats Apart from that good point! markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Stats mean nothing , unless they are Haf stats Apart from that good point! Like for like stats. I.e not comparing someone who played as a central striker to someone who played majority of early games on the left or as a false 9. Facts and stats guys, support stats with facts I.e he scored less despite playing in the same advantageous position. Or even though Lukaku scored 33 of his goals for anderlecht, the Belgian league is tougher than the Argentine league and la liga which is where aguero scored his. Having this approach helps you cut through all the bullshit spin you get from elstone and co. http://thefalse9.com/2012/05/wayne-rooney-transformation-into-a-playmaking-forward.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yawn. I am now using this thread just to bait you Haf. I'm going to keep making posts to wind you up. I will be rating my performance against the number of paragraphs, number of lines and word count of your replies. I'm bored of this thread so it can now be a way to entertain myself until one of the other mods bans me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 http://www.evertonfc.com/news/2015/06/25/latchfords-great-lukaku-expectations markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yawn. I am now using this thread just to bait you Haf. I'm going to keep making posts to wind you up. I will be rating my performance against the number of paragraphs, number of lines and word count of your replies. I'm bored of this thread so it can now be a way to entertain myself until one of the other mods bans me. Or you could try using it to put up a better defence of my criticism of Rom, oh to be a mod eh is there any special perks or is it like being a prefect at school? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Or you could try using it to put up a better defence of my criticism of Rom, oh to be a mod eh is there any special perks or is it like being a prefect at school?What's the point?! You ignore anything put forward unless backs you up. I'm just a glutton for punishment! Latchford got it spot on in that article though. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Or you could try using it to put up a better defence of my criticism of Rom, oh to be a mod eh is there any special perks or is it like being a prefect at school? Just the naked women in the staff room; apart from that nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Hahahaha ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 bloody hell, look at the stats! Rom had a better first two years than one of our most well respected strikers in the clubs history! markjazzbassist and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Well that's it, 30 league goals and £10,000 off the daily express it is then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Well that's it, 30 league goals and £10,000 off the daily express it is then... 5-0 win over Chelsea would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Two posts. Two paragraphs. Six lines. 51 words. 61 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 5-0 win over Chelsea would be nice. Got to say at that time 30 league goals was a great return, the express put it as an incentive as it hadn't been done since franny Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Well that's it, 30 league goals and £10,000 off the daily express it is then...Case and point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Right... Since the site was down yesterday, I decided to finally look into this argument of his goals in a lesser league counting towards why people think he's amazing. Remember this wonderful pictostat? For Hafs sake, I am removing all his goals from anywhere except the PL - that means no Euro or Cup goals at all, no goals outside of his time with West Brom and us. Also, I am not counting National side goals or assists in any competition, the latter only because I ran out of time and couldn't find a good enough source. This has been applied to all the players I compared with below. All goals should count but this is to prove a point. Out of curiosity, I took some of the names Haf has mentioned who are "better strikers". At least, those he mentions are now(were) better strikers, which isn't in doubt, but where they better at scoring goals at the age of 19, 20 and 21? I get his argument that the Belgian league goals boost his stat above (though I maintain all goals count) so lets focus on his time in the Premier League, where it's not so "easy" It took me an hour or so, and I will confess that I may well have miscalculated the correct season starting when the player to compare with was 19 (though I think I've got them all correct - if anyone is bothered enough to correct me, PM with the correct season and I will update the info). Anyway... Randomly chosen to compare with, were; Aguero, Suarez, Ronaldo, Shearer, Rush, Rooney and (for shits and giggles) that "better footballer" in our team, Kone. Now.... Just to emphesise a point here - Rom had an average season last year, in a squad who were below average. He didn't have Forlan playing alongside him like Aguero did at the same age, he didn't have a Rooney or a Ronaldo playing with the likes or RVN, Giggs, Scholes, Keane... We obviously don't count Suarez because he got his goals in the Dutch league, nor do we count the 1st 2 seasons of Shearer at the same age since they were a league below, just like Rushs first season at 3rd Division Chester (again, relevant to age not actual first seasons). Fact is, we've got an amazing talent who we are developing. Compared to any of the great strikers, at the same age, he matches up. We've got a potential World Class player, so lets get behind him I await the "yeah, but...." argument.... Edited June 26, 2015 by Matt Romey 1878, Kant and MikeO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Whatever side of the fence you sit that's a dedicated bit of work Matt . Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Whatever side of the fence you sit that's a dedicated bit of work Matt . Cheers I should be clear. I don't expect everyone to love him, but I do expect every Evertonian to see his worth and potential, and then support him. This is why I am so dedicated (for want of a better word) to the cause. Kant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kant Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Rooney in the Jupiter league FFS?!, give your head a wobble. It's a poor standard d league, anderlecht piss it most years and they aren't much kop I will only say that the gap that English people perceive between the Premier League and other leagues is amazingly not true. i.e.: Anderlecht 3 - 3 Arsenal. Two years ago Olympiakos gave Man Utd a run for its money in 1/4 CL. In the Europa League PL teams keep failing year after year against "lower level opposition", feel free to review the performance of the PL teams starting by the 5-2 overall result of Everton, continuing with Liverpool against Besiktas. Seriously? When are you going to realise that a) the gap is not that big and that it can be also a matter of style of football played. The Premier League is a very particular competition in the sense of style as well, some great players fail here and go on to become big stars elsewhere, the same as strikers fail in the Italian league and go somewhere else and start scoring for fun. Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Whatever side of the fence you sit that's a dedicated bit of work Matt . Its a very dedicated piece of work and I applaud him taking an "objective" view rather than just putting up the jPeg of the impressive looking powerful dreadlocked beast who looks like an all conquering character from a highlander movie. Some interesting counter considerations (given some have been stated): Shearer played for a poor Southampton side in his first two questioned seasons - 14th and 16th they finished, narrowly avoiding relegation - his injury at Blackburn depsite scoring 16 in 21 was diluited over all because of the number of Southampton games. Rom in his first 3 seasons has played in sides averaging 8th place (8th, 5th,11th) Ronaldo wasnt a striker he was a wide player Rooney played left hand midfield and a false 9 behind RVN and Saha in his first 3 seasons at United. In his first full season as a number 9 (after Ronaldo was sold and Tevez was allowed to leave he scored 26 in 32 league games) So whilst the argument is really good in terms of the work done, its not exactly oranges with oranges - I would say if he was comparable like for like then its him against Aguero, Suarez, Rush and Kone - where he finishes 3rd out of those 4. I've never disputed that he can finish if the ball finds him in the box, my argument is that he is to a large extent a luxury striker who needs all the work doing for him. Unfortunately Everton do not have the money to supplement his "overall shortfalls". Its all about opinions, if you think its acceptable to have a forward who is poor at pretty much everything bar sticking the ball away then thats your choice. Personally my belief is that like golf - football is unforgiving, you can't just be a great driver of a ball or a great putter - you will not have success with a balanced all round game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) He actually finishes 2 out of those 5, he had more goals and appearnces than Rush at the same age, and was only 7 behind an Aguero playing alongside Forlan (that first season mentioned, Forlan got 32 in 33 so not a bad striker partner to play with). Suarez doesn't count becasue it was a "lesser league" Honestly, I'm at a loss and I really shouldn't be. I took your argument by your rules at yet you still find a way to tear him down. It's mind boggling. Edited June 26, 2015 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Let's bring some sanity back. I love romelu, one of my favorites on the squad. Absolute beast and goal scoring machine. 5 years from now he will be winning the champions league somewhere destroying centre backs and we'll look back and remember we actually argued about if he was class or not. He's class and then some. COYB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) You know what is hilarious though.... I understand a lot of Hafs criticisms because when I first joined TT, we had the same dance regarding Yakubu only with roles reversed and nowhere near as much discussion In my defence though, I was only turning 26 and hadn't paid much attention in terms of tactics etc. It was only because of TT that I started really getting into the nuances of the game. e.g. http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/21781-yakubu/?p=221800 Take players as they are, it's unlikely you would be criticising his laid back approach when he nonchalantly plants the ball in the back of the net. Liverpool are seeing exactly the same thing with Torres at the mo. You only criticise work rate when they ain't scoring. Yak is the best finisher at the club, and near the top 5 in the league. He's come back from a serious injury, is it his fault we put all our eggs in one basket and signed a league one player on a free? Give him the ball to his feet and watch things happen, don't expect him to run channels up front on his own. Simple, however our super duper manager needs to grow a pair and play him alongside a runner who will give the centre halves something to think about. Whilst we are at it best finishers ahead of yak: Torres, drogba, gerrard, you can pretty much squabble about whether anyone else has the same clinical and calm approach to finding the net. http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/20781-yakubu/?p=207613 ive rarely seen him do any running. I know we bought him to score goals, but that doesnt mean he shouldnt have to work for them too. Imagine how many he could score if he tried more often! Edited June 26, 2015 by Matt markjazzbassist and holystove 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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