Longest Thread For Drivel (or the Romelu Lukaku thread)

[Hafnia]

He actually finishes 2 out of those 5, he had more goals and appearnces than Rush at the same age, and was only 7 behind an Aguero playing alongside Forlan (that first season mentioned, Forlan got 32 in 33 so not a bad striker partner to play with). Suarez doesn't count becasue it was a "lesser league"

 

Honestly, I'm at a loss and I really shouldn't be. I took your argument by your rules at yet you still find a way to tear him down. It's mind boggling.

 

You are trying to convince me Matt but you aren't going to be able to. There is a counter argument for everything - you mention Forlan, well thats interesting because Forlan they "shared 50 goals" between them in a season. It was a strike partnership.

 

If Rom played within a partnership there is an argument to suggest he would score a few more that his partner laid on for him but would score less due to his partner taking those chances he would have had to himself - so we are still in the oranges vs apples scenario.

 

Never with Yakubu did I see attack after attack break down due to his inability to look after the thing or least control it. I'm not suggesting Rom needs to press the full backs or turn into Marcus Bent - I do however expect him to find a team mate with a simple pass, control the thing or lay it off.

 

Being a striker does not mean you have to turn into Kevin Doyle and be a headless chicken. Your point is valid, it is about scoring goals - thats their currency - but when we have a player who can't control it and concedes possession easily then quite frankly it doesn't sit well with me at all.

 

You talk about "service" - Rom would have service if when the ball was played to him he was able to control it. We condeded 3 goals directly from his inability to control or pass last season, for a striker that is abysmal.

 

To save sanity we may as well end this here, you are going to champion him because you believe in him and he plays for Everton.

 

I see a very limited footballer who will cause our team issues because his control and passing is not up to standard. Simple as that. For a team that likes to keep possession he loses the ball far too often and exposes us.

[Matt]

 

You are trying to convince me Matt but you aren't going to be able to. There is a counter argument for everything - you mention Forlan, well thats interesting because Forlan they "shared 50 goals" between them in a season. It was a strike partnership.

 

If Rom played within a partnership there is an argument to suggest he would score a few more that his partner laid on for him but would score less due to his partner taking those chances he would have had to himself - so we are still in the oranges vs apples scenario.

 

Never with Yakubu did I see attack after attack break down due to his inability to look after the thing or least control it. I'm not suggesting Rom needs to press the full backs or turn into Marcus Bent - I do however expect him to find a team mate with a simple pass, control the thing or lay it off.

 

Being a striker does not mean you have to turn into Kevin Doyle and be a headless chicken. Your point is valid, it is about scoring goals - thats their currency - but when we have a player who can't control it and concedes possession easily then quite frankly it doesn't sit well with me at all.

 

You talk about "service" - Rom would have service if when the ball was played to him he was able to control it. We condeded 3 goals directly from his inability to control or pass last season, for a striker that is abysmal.

 

To save sanity we may as well end this here, you are going to champion him because you believe in him and he plays for Everton.

 

I see a very limited footballer who will cause our team issues because his control and passing is not up to standard. Simple as that. For a team that likes to keep possession he loses the ball far too often and exposes us.

Thats really sad. You've made your mind up, and even when I cater to your argument, it's still not enough....

 

I've not seen it with Lukaku either. In fact, I saw it with Kone more than either of them. Whilst his control was much better, his final pass was 9 times out of 10 to the opposition or he ran into someone and gave the ball away. Yak didn't miscontrol that much because he was usually hitting the deck before he had the chance or stranded on the wing from his second season.

 

Ok, care to apply the same level of detailed criticism to Barkley? Kone? Alcaraz?

 

Final bit highlighted - that is the exactly what you should be doing too. Not going on about Bony or Dzeko or Aguero or any others past and present. He is our player, he is improving, he is better than nearly anyone you've mentioned at the same age in a tough league for scoring goals. He plays in blue, he scores and sets up goals (35-40% over each season), he is an Everton player. I'll stop there.

[Hafnia]

It's getting boring Matt, I have my holistic view of a player and the only way that is going to change is if he changes that

 

You can run comparisons against Barkley, Kone, and alcaraz if you want. For me they are a trio of players that cost us £6m in total... No good? Cut them lose.

 

As far as I'm concerned money is everything. If Rom was home grown I would be more tolerant, is it his fault? No. But when you have seen us get into financial difficulties because we wasted money in the market with little to no way of absorbing that hit then I kinda get frustrated hearing him in the press talking himself up as some superstar. I see a very raw, flawed player who gets so much overhyping that it can't be good for him.

 

Who do I blame? Martinez.

[Matt]

It's getting boring Matt, I have my holistic view of a player and the only way that is going to change is if he changes that

 

You can run comparisons against Barkley, Kone, and alcaraz if you want. For me they are a trio of players that cost us £6m in total... No good? Cut them lose.

 

As far as I'm concerned money is everything. If Rom was home grown I would be more tolerant, is it his fault? No. But when you have seen us get into financial difficulties because we wasted money in the market with little to no way of absorbing that hit then I kinda get frustrated hearing him in the press talking himself up as some superstar. I see a very raw, flawed player who gets so much overhyping that it can't be good for him.

 

Who do I blame? Martinez.

It is getting boring. Just wish you'd support the player, without whom we'd be in trouble.

[Hafnia]

It is getting boring. Just wish you'd support the player, without whom we'd be in trouble.

I will support the player when he stops talking to the press saying he needs a club in the champs league and spends more energy working on his game.

 

Why would we be in trouble without him??? He scored 10 league goals, that's it, 18 players scored more (15 of them costing less sorry about price)

[Matt]

I will support the player when he stops talking to the press saying he needs a club in the champs league and spends more energy working on his game.

 

Why would we be in trouble without him??? He scored 10 league goals, that's it, 18 players scored more (15 of them costing less sorry about price)

In our team? Because I don't care about the others. Without him, in our team, we would've been short 16 league goals from 48 = 34%. Who would've provided that? I'll ignore the price because its fucking irrelevant!

 

As for the talking to the press.... Either rip everyone a new one when they do or accept that they're contracted to do so and let it go. Preferably the latter.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Matt

[marcopaulo]

Anyone ever played fallout and listened to the radio?

[pete0]

How much had Lukaku earned the club with his goals? Swap him for another striker and see their effectiveness at earning the club extra revenue. I don't think a player in our price range and wage structure would have been as instrumental to boosting or rank. Bargain if you think about it, keeps bagging goals to up our ranking money from the leagueand he'll pay for himself, plus we'd easily get the money back as long as he's under contract as well.

[Hafnia]

In our team? Because I don't care about the others. Without him, in our team, we would've been short 16 league goals from 48 = 34%. Who would've provided that? I'll ignore the price because its fucking irrelevant!

 

As for the talking to the press.... Either rip everyone a new one when they do or accept that they're contracted to do so and let it go. Preferably the latter.

What a strange argument that is. It's almost like saying Tim Howard made 30 saves all season but imagine where we would be without those 30 saves. Forget that De Gea made 200 saves, the 30 that Howard made meant we won some games and didn't lose others.

 

Put simply, 18 players scored more goals than Rom. Many playing for lesser quality teams with less chances. So what, we are meant to be grateful for actually scoring 10???

 

It's not Like he's doing this out the goodness of his heart Matt, he's getting £70k a week. If you think 10 league goals is a great achievement then fair enough. But what I'm saying is that beckford scored 8 in far less minutes played, he scored the same number as a misfiring James Bettie did.

 

Personally PeteO I would love to see another striker at this club who can offer him competition. Not a false 9 like nais or an injured and confidence shot kone.

[Matt]

What a strange argument that is. It's almost like saying Tim Howard made 30 saves all season but imagine where we would be without those 30 saves. Forget that De Gea made 200 saves, the 30 that Howard made meant we won some games and didn't lose others.

 

Put simply, 18 players scored more goals than Rom. Many playing for lesser quality teams with less chances. So what, we are meant to be grateful for actually scoring 10???

 

It's not Like he's doing this out the goodness of his heart Matt, he's getting £70k a week. If you think 10 league goals is a great achievement then fair enough. But what I'm saying is that beckford scored 8 in far less minutes played, he scored the same number as a misfiring James Bettie did.

 

Personally PeteO I would love to see another striker at this club who can offer him competition. Not a false 9 like nais or an injured and confidence shot kone.

You know what, it is a strange argument. Especially when you insist on objective debate but when provided to you, you go "yeah, but..." and find some other nonsense to skip over the fact you're wrong and have no counterargument to present. For example:

 

"What about that 1 time where he got 1 goal in 11. He's not good enough" - Proven wrong, he contributed to 6 goals in that period

"Yeah but.... His numbers are inflated because he played in a crap league when he was young. Rooney would've done that" - Proven that, even when you choose to ignore certain bits of evidence to suit your argument, you're proven wrong.

"Yeah but.... He should be better for 28m" - Finally accepted at that its actually Martinezs fault regarding the fee and nothing to do with the player, but still blame he player

"Yeah but.... Kone is a better footballer" - Enough said.

"Yeah but.... He shouldn't be talking to the press" - Even though he is contractually obligated to. Then, when he says he wants to win and play at the top, he is chastised for showing real ambition i.e. wanting to win stuff.

 

On top of that, you would rather reminisce about players who we didn't sign, probably because they didn't want to come or we couldn't afford like Welbeck and Bony (who so far have done sod all since their respective transfers), or compare him to other players 4-9 years older in opposition teams, often with regular CL quality supporting and expect him do the same with the same experience. Whilst at the same time, anyone you vouched for who contributes the square root of fuck all is defended to the hilt despite repeated dismal performances.

 

Then to finish things off, you don't provide your own counter argument in any detail! I assume because you've made your mind up and blame him for being so expensive.

 

The reason I have stuck with this argument with you is because, as I've mentioned several times, I respect you quite a lot. But if you're saying "I've decided, theres no point, I don't want to support him", then I have to change that statement. I respect you in every other topic, even the board stick, but absolutely not here.

[Hafnia]

Matt age is no promise of improvement. Did Fowler or Owen imrpve after 22? Rooney? Shearer? I would say no.

 

Regarding talking to the press haveyou actually forgotten what he said and when he said it??? Obligated?! I'm not too sure he is obligated to state his desires to play for another club whilst under contract here

[Blue 250]

Sadly last season was possibly the worst I'd seen Everton play for years, give or take a few games where things did tend to click ( a few in Europe as well......but, we must not mention the goals Lukaku scored in those)....we really were poor.Any player charged with getting the goals 'last' season had his work cut out.

 

How did he (Lukaku) do the previous season in the league, when the service was better........15 in 29 ! Not bad for a youngster !

 

We may never get the best out of him, if we play like last season, wouldn't that be a shame.

[Shukes]

Right... Since the site was down yesterday, I decided to finally look into this argument of his goals in a lesser league counting towards why people think he's amazing. Remember this wonderful pictostat?

 

 

For Hafs sake, I am removing all his goals from anywhere except the PL - that means no Euro or Cup goals at all, no goals outside of his time with West Brom and us. Also, I am not counting National side goals or assists in any competition, the latter only because I ran out of time and couldn't find a good enough source. This has been applied to all the players I compared with below. All goals should count but this is to prove a point.

 

Out of curiosity, I took some of the names Haf has mentioned who are "better strikers". At least, those he mentions are now(were) better strikers, which isn't in doubt, but where they better at scoring goals at the age of 19, 20 and 21? I get his argument that the Belgian league goals boost his stat above (though I maintain all goals count) so lets focus on his time in the Premier League, where it's not so "easy"

 

It took me an hour or so, and I will confess that I may well have miscalculated the correct season starting when the player to compare with was 19 (though I think I've got them all correct - if anyone is bothered enough to correct me, PM with the correct season and I will update the info).

 

Anyway... Randomly chosen to compare with, were; Aguero, Suarez, Ronaldo, Shearer, Rush, Rooney and (for shits and giggles) that "better footballer" in our team, Kone.

 

 

Now.... Just to emphesise a point here - Rom had an average season last year, in a squad who were below average. He didn't have Forlan playing alongside him like Aguero did at the same age, he didn't have a Rooney or a Ronaldo playing with the likes or RVN, Giggs, Scholes, Keane...

 

We obviously don't count Suarez because he got his goals in the Dutch league, nor do we count the 1st 2 seasons of Shearer at the same age since they were a league below, just like Rushs first season at 3rd Division Chester (again, relevant to age not actual first seasons).

 

Fact is, we've got an amazing talent who we are developing. Compared to any of the great strikers, at the same age, he matches up. We've got a potential World Class player, so lets get behind him

 

I await the "yeah, but...." argument....

Wow Kone is actually pretty good haha.

[Kant]

Wow Kone is actually pretty good haha.

 

Sometimes we tend to forget that young Kone used to be great, a bright player when in PSV, and Sevilla signed him as the next wonderkid for €12m in 2007.

 

He could perfectly have been the next big young african striker, if only Sevilla had not hired also Luis Fabiano, who had a cracking season and left Kone without any meaningful minutes.

 

Then, big injury happened and he was never the same. Sevilla loaned him out to Hannover and Levante, and in Levante -and with a tactic of 10 defenders and Kone up front to counterattack- he flourished. Then he went to Wigan for peanuts and you know the story.

[MC11]

Rooney played in a shocking Everton team! How we finished 7th I will never know, pembrridge, li tie, gemmil are you serious? In that first season he was getting 20 minutes and often used on the left. Not much changed in the next season, very rarely did we see him play central for a full game.

 

Only when van nistelrooy was sold did Rooney get a solid run as a striker, many games again he was played on the left and that was the season that he broke his metatarsal which he did twice in two yeaes so it's not even like for like. But yeah fill ya boots.

 

I'll continue to judge players on what I "see". Ironically the best game Rom had for us last year was one he didn't score in.

 

I have said it many a time and I will say it again. I don't care how many penalties Rom scores, or how many he scores in Europa or how if the ball falls on his left boot in the box he scores. He is a shite footballer.

 

If the the odd 15 goals a season pleases you to the extent that you can ignore the amount of times he concedes possession due to his inability to control a ball or pass to a team mate 15 yards away then that's your choice. For me it's unacceptable for a player to be so flawed in basic fundamental skills.

Spot on. Anyone who thinks Lukaku is anywhere near as good as Rooney at 22 needs to wobble the head

[Hafnia]

Spot on. Anyone who thinks Lukaku is anywhere near as good as Rooney at 22 needs to wobble the head

There was absolutely no area that you could question Rooney as a 17-22 year old.

 

Pace - 8/10

Strength - 10/10

Control -10/10

Passing - 10/10

Skill 9/10

Work rate 10/10

Finishing 9/10

Intelligence 9/10

Heading 8/10

 

Put simply, the most complete 17-22 year old striker I have seen since Ronaldo (Brazil)

 

 

For Rom this is my appraisal:-

 

Pace - 8/10

Strength - 7/10

Control - 4/10

Passing - 5/10

Skill 7/10

Work rate 6/10

Finishing 9/10

Intelligence 7/10

Heading 7/10

Edited June 27, 2015 by Hafnia

[Matt]

There was absolutely no area that you could question Rooney as a 17-22 year old.

 

Pace - 8/10

Strength - 10/10

Control -10/10

Passing - 10/10

Skill 9/10

Work rate 10/10

Finishing 9/10

Intelligence 9/10

Heading 8/10

 

Put simply, the most complete 17-22 year old striker I have seen since Ronaldo (Brazil)

 

 

For Rom this is my appraisal:-

 

Pace - 8/10

Strength - 7/10

Control - 4/10

Passing - 5/10

Skill 7/10

Work rate 6/10

Finishing 9/10

Intelligence 7/10

Heading 7/10

60/90 then? Not bad at all and I would agree with all that except passing; a lot of the time his distribution is fantastic. Best part is, coached correctly he can excel in nearly every area there, except control maybe where he'll become good rather than brilliant.

 

Matt age is no promise of improvement. Did Fowler or Owen imrpve after 22? Rooney? Shearer? I would say no.

 

Regarding talking to the press haveyou actually forgotten what he said and when he said it??? Obligated?! I'm not too sure he is obligated to state his desires to play for another club whilst under contract here

Age is no promise, I'll grant you that. The difference between Owen and Rooney, is they were thrown in the deep end from 16-17 and had the weight of a nation on their shoulders too. But by the same token, age allows a player to develop.

 

He said he wants to compete at the highest level, that he wants to win things. I actually found the Dutch interview he gave (edited by SSN) and read the "source" interview, even though that was likely to have been edited too.

 

Can you share the link where he says "I want to leave Everton for *insert team here*"? Not being flippant, just never remember him mentioning a team by name.

[Cornish Steve]

There was absolutely no area that you could question Rooney as a 17-22 year old.

 

Pace - 8/10

Strength - 10/10

Control -10/10

Passing - 10/10

Skill 9/10

Work rate 10/10

Finishing 9/10

Intelligence 9/10

Heading 8/10

 

Put simply, the most complete 17-22 year old striker I have seen since Ronaldo (Brazil)

 

 

For Rom this is my appraisal:-

 

Pace - 8/10

Strength - 7/10

Control - 4/10

Passing - 5/10

Skill 7/10

Work rate 6/10

Finishing 9/10

Intelligence 7/10

Heading 7/10

 

Can't agree with your ratings for strength. I would reverse the numbers.

[mcirony]

If it was so easy to score in the Belgian league when your are under-21, surely that list would be littered with players that came from there? Obviously, the Belgian league isn't as strong and defenders aren't as good, but neither are the players providing chances for you so it still takes a certain degree individual skill to score.

 

I think he gets a lot of unfair criticism.

[Hafnia]

60/90 then? Not bad at all and I would agree with all that except passing; a lot of the time his distribution is fantastic. Best part is, coached correctly he can excel in nearly every area there, except control maybe where he'll become good rather than brilliant.

 

Age is no promise, I'll grant you that. The difference between Owen and Rooney, is they were thrown in the deep end from 16-17 and had the weight of a nation on their shoulders too. But by the same token, age allows a player to develop.

 

He said he wants to compete at the highest level, that he wants to win things. I actually found the Dutch interview he gave (edited by SSN) and read the "source" interview, even though that was likely to have been edited too.

 

Can you share the link where he says "I want to leave Everton for *insert team here*"? Not being flippant, just never remember him mentioning a team by name.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11671/9712353/premier-league-everton-striker-romelu-lukaku-wants-to-move-to-a-top-club

[Hafnia]

 

Can't agree with your ratings for strength. I would reverse the numbers.

Rooney pisses on Rom for strength. Relatively speaking Rom is a pudding. His core strength is abysmal and its fuck all to do with having a 6 pack. A player nudges him high and he folds, he can't balance an impact out. He hasn't got a low centre of gravity to start with.

 

He relies on force (mass x acceleration) which is not strength. Stood still under physical pressure he is poor.

[Btay]

Rooney pisses on Rom for strength. Relatively speaking Rom is a pudding. His core strength is abysmal and its fuck all to do with having a 6 pack. A player nudges him high and he folds, he can't balance an impact out. He hasn't got a low centre of gravity to start with.

 

He relies on force (mass x acceleration) which is not strength. Stood still under physical pressure he is poor.

His strength is shit due to his lack of aggression, if he can get bit of mungrel to him he could throw players around. There is no reason Rom shouldn't be able to back into a defender and roll him the way the Yak use to for fun.

[Hafnia]

His strength is shit due to his lack of aggression, if he can get bit of mungrel to him he could throw players around. There is no reason Rom shouldn't be able to back into a defender and roll him the way the Yak use to for fun.

As a kid who was less than 5ft up till 16 weighing no more than 9st to being 5ft11 and 14st at 22 I feel I can add something to this. I feel sizedoes haave some bearing but not essential.

 

for me it all came from adrenaline, I had a tap of it and knew how to access it (nervous energy?). I grew because I was able to constantly overload my muscles.

 

Rom is one of the most impressive specimens I've seen, but so was my mate in school and he was weak.

 

It's a strange one.

[Shukes]

Agree with a few things here.

 

Matt

Lukaku passing is actually one of his most impressive attribute. He regularly strokes a diagonal ball onto our wingers toes.

 

Btay

Lukaku has the strength but lacks aggression. Too much mister nice guy...not competitive enough.

[c1982]

As a kid who was less than 5ft up till 16 weighing no more than 9st to being 5ft11 and 14st at 22 I feel I can add something to this. I feel sizedoes haave some bearing but not essential.

 

for me it all came from adrenaline, I had a tap of it and knew how to access it (nervous energy?). I grew because I was able to constantly overload my muscles.

 

Rom is one of the most impressive specimens I've seen, but so was my mate in school and he was weak.

 

It's a strange one.

Sorry but the constant self and peer comparisons to professionals at the top of their game is just ridiculous. These are trained and conditioned athletes... I grew a bit and in fact most people I know did, it coincided with another Belgian, coincidently, called Stella!

[Hafnia]

Sorry but the constant self and peer comparisons to professionals at the top of their game is just ridiculous. These are trained and conditioned athletes... I grew a bit and in fact most people I know did, it coincided with another Belgian, coincidently, called Stella!

Why do they have different muscle tissue etc? No of course they don't. Of course it's comparable!

 

People assume Rom is strong because he's big. Nonsense. Big Dunc was no where near as muscular as Rom but far stronger. That's my point, size is not equal to strength.

[c1982]

Why do they have different muscle tissue etc? No of course they don't. Of course it's comparable!

 

 

It's not just muscle tissue you've used in comparison... it's been everything from hold up play to accessing adrenaline! The amount of times I've read, 'When I played...' It's not a basis for comparison. These are athletes at the top of their game, getting daily input physically, technically, mentally... Unless you've experienced that personally then I don't see it as a valid comparison.

[Hafnia]

It's not just muscle tissue you've used in comparison... it's been everything from hold up play to accessing adrenaline! The amount of times I've read, 'When I played...' It's not a basis for comparison. These are athletes at the top of their game, getting daily input physically, technically, mentally... Unless you've experienced that personally then I don't see it as a valid comparison.

not too sure why these comparisons aren't relevant. the one thing I will say is I've seen Rom outmuscled by far smaller players. Therefore that's why I don't think he's strong.

 

As it happens I have played against an ex premium footballer and he wasn't anything physically, skill wise different level. Sean Thornton.

[Lowensda]

Its like when I was younger, I used to eat Lucky Charms, they were amazing, sugary goodness. Then I found out that at the same age, Rooney also used to eat Lucky Charms, he'd loved them soo much.

 

So in conclusion, should I be as good a footballer as Rooney or is it because he liked them a little bit more than me, that he became a very talented and well paid footballer?

 

We were the same age like.

[Formby]

Well, I think we can all agree that Lukaku will never be a Rooney. That said, Rooney never became the player he (we) hoped he'd be (certainly not on the international stage). I don't care what Lukaku does / doesn't do so long as he scores regularly. Klose did nothing all game and didn't do too badly for himself. Latchford and then Lineker were purely poachers and they had good careers. One thing that would obviate a lot of criticism of Lukaku is if he'd improve in the air: no excuse for a man of his size not to score more with his head (although I accept our crossing / corners / free kicks were / are abject). We still need a bona fide no.10.