John Stones

[Deacs]

Stones needs to go in January you can see he doesn't want to be here.

So long as the money is right.

Big call, can see where you're coming from though.

[Hafnia]

Stones needs to go in January you can see he doesn't want to be here.

So long as the money is right.

 

why? I think he does want to be here, the game against Cheslea, the performance against Liverpool, celebrating in front of fans etc,

 

He is having a lull.

[pete0]

for me his best game was against Chelsea hmmmm but since then performances have been average.

At the end of the day he's going to go so why prolong the agony seems senseless to me.

He's been rushed back from injury in-between.

[Deacs]

Whether we care to admit it or not he probably is going to leave, so it might as well be on our terms.

In the space of 10 games we've gone from light on at centre back to well stocked (was going to use well endowed there but knowing you lot decided against it).

If we can get 40-50 million for him, and can get that deal in place now (informally obviously) and get our targets lined up for the window then maybe it would be for the best of the club?

He's a great player and I would love to see him play for us for the next ten years, but maybe we can improve by letting him go.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

We should keep him , £40M wouldn't improve us enough to make up for the loss of Stone's. Him and Galloway could go on to become one of the greatest central defensive pairings the club has ever had

[c1982]

We should keep him , £40M wouldn't improve us enough to make up for the loss of Stone's. Him and Galloway could go on to become one of the greatest central defensive pairings the club has ever had

Agree but just have the feeling that Stones/Rom will move on at the end of the season unless we do something great on the pitch (top 4 or a cup) or we get taken over and really show our intentions in the transfer market.

[markjazzbassist]

Agree but just have the feeling that Stones/Rom will move on at the end of the season unless we do something great on the pitch (top 4 or a cup) or we get taken over and really show our intentions in the transfer market.

 

agreed. stones already put in one transfer request, an 11th place finish this year and dunc thinks he will stick around. he's gone. so is romelu with the new agent. mirallas too probably, he's had enough of the bad treament. we'll need massive cash to replace them adn the old guys retiring.

[Hafnia]

 

agreed. stones already put in one transfer request, an 11th place finish this year and dunc thinks he will stick around. he's gone. so is romelu with the new agent. mirallas too probably, he's had enough of the bad treament. we'll need massive cash to replace them adn the old guys retiring.

 

Agents dont necessarily sell players - we proved that in the summer.

 

Mirallas has signed a new contract - he gets sold if we want to - not because he can leave.

 

Lukaku will make sounds if he wants to go and if he does he is under contract so will be at our fee. Stones is also under contract. We carry the aces.

[MC11]

We should keep him , £40M wouldn't improve us enough to make up for the loss of Stone's. Him and Galloway could go on to become one of the greatest central defensive pairings the club has ever had

Can't see it. I think Stones will be gone in the summer. Plus I think Mori is going to be the LCB for a long time. Not sure I've ever seen 2 left footed centre halfs

[markjazzbassist]

 

Agents dont necessarily sell players - we proved that in the summer.

 

Mirallas has signed a new contract - he gets sold if we want to - not because he can leave.

 

Lukaku will make sounds if he wants to go and if he does he is under contract so will be at our fee. Stones is also under contract. We carry the aces.

 

yeah we can hold onto the whole team, but it would be an awful strategy. the game is about buying low selling high to survive with our finances, selling stones and lukaku will happen at some point just timing it right is key. we will have to if we want to survive in the future. otherwise it's 5 good years and then they get old and we get relegated cause we don't have money and our team is shit.

 

we have too many needs to keep 50m players on the squad. look at arsenal, they do fine without 50m players, sanchez and ozil are the only 2 theyve had and theyre great every year. scouting mate, scouting.

[Hafnia]

 

yeah we can hold onto the whole team, but it would be an awful strategy. the game is about buying low selling high to survive with our finances, selling stones and lukaku will happen at some point just timing it right is key. we will have to if we want to survive in the future. otherwise it's 5 good years and then they get old and we get relegated cause we don't have money and our team is shit.

 

we have too many needs to keep 50m players on the squad. look at arsenal, they do fine without 50m players, sanchez and ozil are the only 2 theyve had and theyre great every year. scouting mate, scouting.

If arsenal actually spent money and didn't fuck about in trying to get Suarez for £40,000,001 they may have won the league.

 

Based on your model arsenal would have sold Henry, viera, Bergkamp.... all players acquired cheap who could have been sold for much more.

 

Keep your best players unless they can be replaced like for like alot cheaper Simple as that.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Hafnia

[Matt]

the difference is arsenal were winning trophies we arnt.

Very true, and they were winning trophies because Wenger built a group of young talented players (Henry joined at 22, Viera 20, Ljungberg 21, Overmars 24, RVP 21, Anelka 17, Cole came through at 18, just some examples) and balanced that with some players starting their peak (Bergkamp 26, Pires 27, etc) which then gave them the platform, through competition money, to build the basis for a new stadium, built the Arsenal brand etc.

 

The club starts by winning things, and to win things you need to keep your best players. Stones cannot go for 40m, we cannot replace him easily enough and we cannot invest well enough to improve the squad overall.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Matt

[Shukes]

Matt gets my vote for chairman.

[Hafnia]

Very true, and they were winning trophies because Wenger built a group of young talented players (Henry joined at 22, Viera 20, Ljungberg 21, Overmars 24, RVP 21, Anelka 17, Cole came through at 18, just some examples) and balanced that with some players starting their peak (Bergkamp 26, Pires 27, etc) which then gave them the platform, through competition money, to build the basis for a new stadium, built the Arsenal brand etc.

 

The club starts by winning things, and to win things you need to keep your best players. Stones cannot go for 40m, we cannot replace him easily enough and we cannot invest well enough to improve the squad overall.

This is my point in its entirety.

 

To a lesser extent let's take west ham...

 

Joe Cole, Frank lampard, Michael Carrick, defoe, Glenn Johnson, Rio ferdinand.

 

All acquired at a cost of zero. If they retained them they qualify for champions league. As it happens they were sold, money squandered and they go on to win titles and cups else where.

 

Retain them, bring in the fans, TV money, etc etc.

[Matt]

With the lack of success it's very hard to keep players happy.

Especially top players they can double or treble their wages by moving.

 

So we keep unhappy players.

Its about man management and keeping them grounded, which takes a very strong and inspirational group of people.

 

It's so chicken and egg, but between the Arsenal example and Hafs example of Wham, there's very clear do's and don'ts for success and we all know which model we want to aim for. We've got, on paper, a youthful spine in Stones, McCarthy, Barkley, Lukaku, Garbutt, Galloway, Mori (all under 25) who have proven, though not consistently, they are destined for big things. It's up to that strong group of people to make them all acknowledge what they have around them and to get them to see past next season.

 

I've always said Martinez has a 5 year plan and it's starting to come together. If we need to sell, sell Stones and Lukaku but not for less than 100m for both. Thats enough to reinvest sufficiently, in such a way that it makes up for loosing 2 great young players by "ambition" spending.

 

40m for Stones is just not even close.

[Matt]

unless Barca or Madrid come in I can't see us getting more than 40 mill.

Then we don't sell, simple as that. But I expect 2-3 clubs to chase him, especially City.

[Hafnia]

So we keep unhappy players.

You create unhappy players by making them feel that they are not part of something big. Selling your best players that can't be replaced for equal or better shows lack of ambition.

 

These lads train 4 days a week, they live a regimented lifestyle and travel away from their families. They want to be part of a team that can do something, once you sell the ones that can't be replaced they get pissed off.

[Hafnia]

unless Barca or Madrid come in I can't see us getting more than 40 mill.

Clubs will spend £50m on centre halves. That's a fact. Especially young, ball playing potential captains.

 

David Luiz. Say no more.

[markjazzbassist]

If arsenal actually spent money and didn't fuck about in trying to get Suarez for £40,000,001 they may have won the league.

 

Based on your model arsenal would have sold Henry, viera, Bergkamp.... all players acquired cheap who could have been sold for much more.

 

Keep your best players unless they can be replaced like for like alot cheaper Simple as that.

 

based on my model i've seen arsenal sell van persie, vermalaen, song, vela, fabregas, nasri, adebayour, kolo toure in the last 6 years. top players in their prime for top money. they made champs league every year it didn't effect anything performance wise. they sell for 20-40m and reinvest in players for 5m-20m max. their squad quality on a whole is greater than us because every position has someone of quality.

 

your argument is bunk. soton does the same thing, sells their best makes boat loads and reinvests and still competes well.

 

the key is getting quality at every position not just having a couple star performers cause you will rely on them and if they get injuried there goes your form. arsenal has tons of injuries ox wilshere walcott welbeck etc. and it doesn't matter. they have another quality player of similar calibre to put it and do a job.

Edited October 30, 2015 by markjazzbassist

[Matt]

 

based on my model i've seen arsenal sell van persie, vermalaen, song, vela, fabregas, nasri, adebayour, kolo toure in the last 6 years. top players in their prime for top money. they made champs league every year it didn't effect anything performance wise. they sell for 20-40m and reinvest in players for 5m-20m max. their squad quality on a whole is greater than us because every position has someone of quality.

 

your argument is bunk. soton does the same thing, sells their best makes boat loads and reinvests and still competes well.

 

the key is getting quality at every position not just having a couple star performers cause you will rely on them and if they get injuried there goes your form. arsenal has tons of injuries ox wilshere walcott welbeck etc. and it doesn't matter. they have another quality player of similar calibre to put it and do a job.

His argument is sound, Mark. Your's is also correct, but you're forgetting that Arsenal were able to sell all those you mentioned after being Champions / regular CL participants, and so could pretty much get anyone they wanted. They've also not won anything since the moved to their new ground, implying that selling big and spending little gets you nowhere except a fancy stadium which is used for money making rather than football.

 

We do not have the same pull in the modern day, unfortunately.

[Romey 1878]

His argument is sound, Mark. Your's is also correct, but you're forgetting that Arsenal were able to sell all those you mentioned after being Champions / regular CL participants, and so could pretty much get anyone they wanted. They've also not won anything since the moved to their new ground, implying that selling big and spending little gets you nowhere except a fancy stadium which is used for money making rather than football.

 

We do not have the same pull in the modern day, unfortunately.

 

They've won the FA Cup twice haven't they?

[markjazzbassist]

His argument is sound, Mark. Your's is also correct, but you're forgetting that Arsenal were able to sell all those you mentioned after being Champions / regular CL participants, and so could pretty much get anyone they wanted. They've also not won anything since the moved to their new ground, implying that selling big and spending little gets you nowhere except a fancy stadium which is used for money making rather than football.

 

We do not have the same pull in the modern day, unfortunately.

 

i just seen them win the FA cup twice and community shield twice. how did they not win anything? that's 4 trophies.

 

swansea and soton are both "poor man's" examples of the arsenal approach. they buy low and medium players and sell high and reinvest. with a team first approach this can be done.

[Matt]

They've won the FA Cup twice haven't they?

My bad, last 2 years: 2013–14, 2014–15.

 

Still, for all the money could've spent, they should've won more.

[Matt]

 

i just seen them win the FA cup twice and community shield twice. how did they not win anything? that's 4 trophies.

 

swansea and soton are both "poor man's" examples of the arsenal approach. they buy low and medium players and sell high and reinvest. with a team first approach this can be done.

Already been corrected, and the Community Shield doesn't count for anything.

 

Everton are also the "poor mans" Arsenal and it stabilized us. Now we want to go further and to do that, you need to keep your best players.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Matt

[Hafnia]

 

based on my model i've seen arsenal sell van persie, vermalaen, song, vela, fabregas, nasri, adebayour, kolo toure in the last 6 years. top players in their prime for top money. they made champs league every year it didn't effect anything performance wise. they sell for 20-40m and reinvest in players for 5m-20m max. their squad quality on a whole is greater than us because every position has someone of quality.

 

your argument is bunk. soton does the same thing, sells their best makes boat loads and reinvests and still competes well.

 

the key is getting quality at every position not just having a couple star performers cause you will rely on them and if they get injuried there goes your form. arsenal has tons of injuries ox wilshere walcott welbeck etc. and it doesn't matter. they have another quality player of similar calibre to put it and do a job.

My argument is absolutely fine and has no contradiction. RVP was a brilliantly engineered transfer the same way Henry's was. Two players who were creeping over the pinnacle - they weren't at their peak and they both earned £28m.

 

It would be like us getting £18m for Baines now.

 

Fabregas was a Barcelona boy who was pinched by arsenal, he owed them.

 

Nasri and Adebuyor were genius sales by arsene, he kept their trouble making out the press, earned a fortune for them. Toure and vela? Scraping the barrel there!

[markjazzbassist]

My argument is absolutely fine and has no contradiction. RVP was a brilliantly engineered transfer the same way Henry's was. Two players who were creeping over the pinnacle - they weren't at their peak and they both earned £28m.

 

It would be like us getting £18m for Baines now.

 

Fabregas was a Barcelona boy who was pinched by arsenal, he owed them.

 

Nasri and Adebuyor were genius sales by arsene, he kept their trouble making out the press, earned a fortune for them. Toure and vela? Scraping the barrel there!

 

that's the point though, even decent players they got top dollar for. 12m for vela, 18m for toure. you may think they are shit (vela is solid) but they made good money on them.

 

using their logic mirallas would've been sold for 12m, naisy for 8m, rom this summer for 40-50m, stones this summer 50m+. that's over 120m. we still have great players in baines galloway barkley gerry, mccarthy, coleman and if you spend it like arsenal or soton do and buy players like a giroud (12m) at the TOP of your spend and the rest are all 8m players from other leagues you can build a dynasty.

 

instead RM spunks the whole transfer window budget on rom, 1 player. now we are dependent on rom for goals, if he's injured good luck. if he sucks, oh well there goes 28m.

 

having a top notch scouting network and scouts and academy to me are more important than buying the big boys. Whole is greater than sum of parts.

Edited October 30, 2015 by markjazzbassist

[Hafnia]

 

that's the point though, even decent players they got top dollar for. 12m for vela, 18m for toure. you may think they are shit (vela is solid) but they made good money on them.

 

using their logic mirallas would've been sold for 12m, naisy for 8m, rom this summer for 40-50m, stones this summer 50m+. that's over 120m. we still have great players in baines galloway barkley gerry, mccarthy, coleman and if you spend it like arsenal or soton do and buy players like a giroud (12m) at the TOP of your spend and the rest are all 8m players from other leagues you can build a dynasty.

 

instead RM spunks the whole transfer window budget on rom, 1 player. now we are dependent on rom for goals, if he's injured good luck. if he sucks, oh well there goes 28m.

 

having a top notch scouting network and scouts and academy to me are more important than buying the big boys. Whole is greater than sum of parts.

So you are saying cashing in on John stones makes sense??? I don't. Stones is only going to get better, his value will increase his contribution to the team will have resulted in more points.

 

All these aforementioned players you speak of had hit or passed peak.

 

I'm not even mentioning vela he's not at the level we are speaking of.

 

Mirallas wasn't going to get anywhere £12m, he had less than a year on his contract.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Hafnia

[Matt]

 

that's the point though, even decent players they got top dollar for. 12m for vela, 18m for toure. you may think they are shit (vela is solid) but they made good money on them.

 

using their logic mirallas would've been sold for 12m, naisy for 8m, rom this summer for 40-50m, stones this summer 50m+. that's over 120m. we still have great players in baines galloway barkley gerry, mccarthy, coleman and if you spend it like arsenal or soton do and buy players like a giroud (12m) at the TOP of your spend and the rest are all 8m players from other leagues you can build a dynasty.

 

instead RM spunks the whole transfer window budget on rom, 1 player. now we are dependent on rom for goals, if he's injured good luck. if he sucks, oh well there goes 28m.

 

having a top notch scouting network and scouts and academy to me are more important than buying the big boys. Whole is greater than sum of parts.

Which is what we have and what we do. However, over the last 20 years that has not taken us to the heights we expect as Evertonians. The only way to do that, is to keep these talented players that we've developed rather than selling them on. It's been 2 steps forward, 1 step back since the Walter Smith days, as we tried to undo the damage. We're finally in a position where we have some money coming in to invest in the team without selling out best players. So why would we continue to be a feeder club? Why sell a player thats still years from his prime but already an outstanding defender?

[markjazzbassist]

Which is what we have and what we do. However, over the last 20 years that has not taken us to the heights we expect as Evertonians. The only way to do that, is to keep these talented players that we've developed rather than selling them on. It's been 2 steps forward, 1 step back since the Walter Smith days, as we tried to undo the damage. We're finally in a position where we have some money coming in to invest in the team without selling out best players. So why would we continue to be a feeder club? Why sell a player thats still years from his prime but already an outstanding defender?

 

agreed we need to keep them til their value outweighs their contribution. see fellaini rodwell etc. also yes we have good scouts and good academy but that's all stymied by RM spunking for players. Most ever spent for CB on Mori, love the lad but surely value lies elsewhere. Most ever for Rom. Lennon, Gerry, Cleverley, etc are sensible buys but to me the big 2 buys outdid the others. pre ozil and sanchez arse wasn't blowing the whole kitty on players (see man city united chelsea etc). the value buys and medium buys kept them going, and i think we should do that with the stones romelu money.

 

won't happen cause well spunk on yarmolenko or whomever and then spent 20m on austin or some obscene amount. talk about ambition but still be reliant on 2 players instead of a team first strategy.

[Matt]

Arsenal were clearing debt and being sensible. Debt cleared, 40m on 2 players back to back seasons.

 

Mori could prove a bargain, give him 2 seasons before you judge him. Rom our most expensive yes, became one of our best scorers in decades, leading scorer in Europe after 2 seasons. Money well spent.

 

Really don't see your point now.