adziom Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Like it or not, Martinez is 99% sure going to be around for a while. BK wouldn't have sacked him and the new owners are extremely unlikely to sack him in the early stages of their tenure lest they look reckless. I'm sure things will pick up anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Ok. I was genuinely interested. If you'd just told me from what point the 50 odd games started from, I would have looked myself for comparisons and give an honest answer. It would be interesting to see...but it's quite hard to get straight answers isn't it?!!! I know the last season and a half is not good enough. That's not even being debated. Can someone remind me why we ignore the first season again?!!! Because it's gone on far too long to be a bad run of form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 For the same reason that Chelsea sacked JM this year - they were playing like dogshit and something was rotten at the core (which of course was JM it appears). You can't live on past glories when your current form has been shite for the better part of two seasons now. Ha! Chelsea went from winning the league to being beaten game after game...massive difference. Last season was poor. No one has ever doubted that. This season we were doing fine up until around the beginning of December. We were floating up and around 6th - 9th, with places changing every week. And only a few points away from the golden 4th place. No doubt about it, December and January have been rough. It's all about drawing too many rather than being 'out and out' shite. The frustration comes from drawing when we should have won...comes from goals conceded...Martinez will fall on his sword only if we continue conceding daft goals. That one element makes all the difference. dlblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalkpie Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Ha! Chelsea went from winning the league to being beaten game after game...massive difference. Last season was poor. No one has ever doubted that. This season we were doing fine up until around the beginning of December. We were floating up and around 6th - 9th, with places changing every week. And only a few points away from the golden 4th place. No doubt about it, December and January have been rough. It's all about drawing too many rather than being 'out and out' shite. The frustration comes from drawing when we should have won...comes from goals conceded...Martinez will fall on his sword only if we continue conceding daft goals. That one element makes all the difference. If you're drawing, you're not winning. If you're losing, you're not winning. If you're not winning, you're 12 place in the table, and you don't make the Champions League, or to the League Cup Final. Chelsea didn't draw or lose last year. City didn't draw or lose the previous. Coulda - shoulda - woulda. 4th place in October, 19th place in December, 1st place in November, 12th place in February. The *only thing* relevant is the place dated 27 Jan 2016, because the rest of those places and dates are just fantasies. When people have said that we should be in 4th place right now - well, no we shouldn't - we don't deserve 4th place. Tottenham (or whoever the fuck) deserves 4th place because they know how to close out games and win - we don't. We deserve 12th place because that is how we play, just as we don't deserve do be in the League Cup Final because our defending is a fucking joke. We are REALY good at taking at 2-1 lead, or 3-1 lead, and turning that lead into a draw or loss. That seems to be our number one talent lately. False promises and big talk of how we are going to improve is like pissing in the wind. Shit or get off the pot - its that simple. Excuses just buys into the whole Martinez "School of Bullshit", and the more we (as supporters) keep telling each other that its OK we are still learning, or its gonna get better, then we just accept mediocrity and condone the piss-poor tactics and choices of our fearless leader week-after-week, or now its starting to look like season-after-season. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but its not getting better. If you acknowledge that Chelsea went down the toilet and have been getting beat game after game, then please realize that we are essentially that team because they are only one point behind us now. Why is it OK for us to be this shit team but not them? Because they are champions, and we are, what mid-table rubbish? We need to have the same expectations of a team like Chelsea, or United, or whoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) if we finish bottom half Bobby should do the right thing and move on by "mutual consent" Bill: Fuck of Bobby Bobby: Ok boss. Edited January 28, 2016 by Chach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 If you're drawing, you're not winning. If you're losing, you're not winning. If you're not winning, you're 12 place in the table, and you don't make the Champions League, or to the League Cup Final. Chelsea didn't draw or lose last year. City didn't draw or lose the previous. Coulda - shoulda - woulda. 4th place in October, 19th place in December, 1st place in November, 12th place in February. The *only thing* relevant is the place dated 27 Jan 2016, because the rest of those places and dates are just fantasies. Stopped reading after the bold bit. The only thing that matters actually is the position after the last game of the season. Then we'll talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacs Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Stopped reading after the bold bit. The only thing that matters actually is the position after the last game of the season. Then we'll talk. I don't think our league position at the end of the season will enhance your argument. Happy to be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 I don't think our league position at the end of the season will enhance your argument. Happy to be wrong though. My argument is that he needs to improve the defensive side of things and turn draws into wins? And if he doesn't sort this out it will be his downfall?! There's an issue there that needs sorting. Where I'm really disagreeing is that he needs to go NOW! That for me is a pointless action that will achieve...well, not a lot. Look, at the end of the day, he'll be given a chance to sort it out. The Everton way isn't to sack on a whim (like it or not). People keep referring back to Moyes. But conveniently forget that in his 11 years here, Moyes, according to sectors of fans, should have been sacked several times!!! It's true. How many times did we have slow starts with him?! His head was called for on numerous occasions! People say 'ooh what about Raneiri at Leicester? Imagine him here!'. Raneiri has been a manager for 30 odd years and has won very little. He's a 'nearly man'. He has a history of starting well then not being able to build on it...generally gets sacked! Leicester are doing well. Taking advantage of the fact that teams like United, Pool, Chelsea and ourselves aren't doing what we should be. You have to rate a managers success on a few seasons, not 23 games like we are with Raneiri, Bilic etc. Like it or not, we can't pick the best managers out there. The League winners, European winners. They go onto the next level, with the financials to go with it. We can't offer the same. So we have to hunt out 'the best of the rest'. The up and coming managers. We did it with Moyes. We are doing it again with Martinez. It is frustrating right now. Of course it is. Mainly because we've thrown away to many leads due to conceding to many goals. Martinez is under some pressure. To be honest, I'm not arsed about being right or wrong. We are not going to get relegated. This is as bad as it will get. If he goes, he goes. Good luck to the next bloke. If he stays, good luck to him. The club still exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalkpie Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 http://toffeeweb.com/season/15-16/comment/fan/31709.html Matt and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacs Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Being right or wrong has no meaning to me on a personal level, I'm happy to be wrong because that means we haven't wasted the season. If you're happy to exist that's find. Personally I think that mind set has ruined clubs in the past, and in this new age of billion dollar football will see more go to rot. We need to improve at a greater level each year, on and off the pitch just to keep pace with the pack let alone challenge for Europe. We can't waste two seasons talking about potential, in our "everything on demand society" that isn't going to wash and the players will be off. Results do matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 http://toffeeweb.com/season/15-16/comment/fan/31709.html That is absolutely spot on. Romey 1878 and Gwlad 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 What worries me is that Roberto seems to accept the situation. He seems to think that mid-table is part of some learning-curve. We can all name half-a-dozen managers who would not accept the situation and kick tea cups around the dressing room. Roberto, lets have some 'passion' in both the management and the playing. Kick 'ass where necessary, including your own. Matt and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) What worries me is that Roberto seems to accept the situation. He seems to think that mid-table is part of some learning-curve. We can all name half-a-dozen managers who would not accept the situation and kick tea cups around the dressing room. Roberto, lets have some 'passion' in both the management and the playing. Kick 'ass where necessary, including your own. It took a long time for things to get stale under Moyes. Martinez has managed it in a phenomenally short time. Edited January 28, 2016 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Being right or wrong has no meaning to me on a personal level, I'm happy to be wrong because that means we haven't wasted the season. If you're happy to exist that's find. Personally I think that mind set has ruined clubs in the past, and in this new age of billion dollar football will see more go to rot. We need to improve at a greater level each year, on and off the pitch just to keep pace with the pack let alone challenge for Europe. We can't waste two seasons talking about potential, in our "everything on demand society" that isn't going to wash and the players will be off. Results do matter. I knew you or some one would play on my words there. Absolutely knew that would be twisted around. Sometimes I wonder if some of you lot are journalists!!! So predictable how you's scan a post and pick something to twist. So frustrating to me that. But just to pick up on the point. It's more about not being emotionally attached to the man, even though I still support him at this point in time. That the club exists before any manager. And will do if he goes. It's not about, as you have tried to insinuate, bobbling along, happy to be mid table. Every fan wants better for their club. That's obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 http://toffeeweb.com/season/15-16/comment/fan/31709.html I read that this morning. It's a good read. And to be honest, it does strike a chord. You have to appreciate well thought out pieces like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 It took a long time for things to get stale under Moyes. Martinez has managed it in a phenomenally short time. Roberto Martinez likes this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacs Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 I knew you or some one would play on my words there. Absolutely knew that would be twisted around. Sometimes I wonder if some of you lot are journalists!!! So predictable how you's scan a post and pick something to twist. So frustrating to me that. But just to pick up on the point. It's more about not being emotionally attached to the man, even though I still support him at this point in time. That the club exists before any manager. And will do if he goes. It's not about, as you have tried to insinuate, bobbling along, happy to be mid table. Every fan wants better for their club. That's obvious. Of course it is, and its not about twisting words or getting one over on another poster. it's about point of view and perception. If I misread your post or its intent I apologise, but I took what you wrote at face value and replied to it. I've been on here long enough to know you love the club, thats not in doubt. I just have a different opinion to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 The toffeeweb article was very well put together - rather than it being a reason to dismiss him, it should be used by the useless shower that run the club to sit there and push it under his nose for him to read.... and watch his reaction. If his reaction is that of denial - then get rid, simple as that. That piece articulates very well a lot of the frustrations that have been captured in this thread. There is no running away from a lot of the statistics and facts. I have voiced support for him in the hope that he can at least recognise and fix what is clearly "wrong". I see so much potential in what he could become. Its funny, they say managers select players who they thinks represents them (Roy Keane for Alex Ferguson, Pearce or Burns for Clough) - if this was the case then Ross Barkley is definately his man. Capable of so much brilliance but lacks it upstairs - can't self examine himself well enough to see where he needs to improve and will ultimately fail to achieve what he should. I have been a massive Martinez fan for what he did in his first season and I have stubbornly supported him through some testing times. For me it's about Everton F.C and nothing else. This is why I hate the "fanboy" mentality to seems to follow players like Stones and Lukaku... hailed as being so important to the club that they end up thinking they are bigger than the club. I want to see a Funes Mori - Besic mentality right the way through the CLUB, not just the team. I may well be bigging them up now, and yes if they lose their way and stop performing or showing signs of being "not bothered" then they can go too. This is all about Everton F.C, the staff, players etc are just employees. Thats the wasy SAF operated and thats how we need to be. Its not fickle, its called being reactive and creating a culture where you are held accountable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Of course it is, and its not about twisting words or getting one over on another poster. it's about point of view and perception. If I misread your post or its intent I apologise, but I took what you wrote at face value and replied to it. I've been on here long enough to know you love the club, thats not in doubt. I just have a different opinion to you. Fair play. Take away some of the, kind of, self righteous emotional stuff in this thread, and there is a good amount of points being made. And they can't really be argued with at this moment in time. But I'll stick to what I say, I'll wait until the end of the season and go from there. I know what I'm looking for between now and then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacs Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Fair play. Take away some of the, kind of, self righteous emotional stuff in this thread, and there is a good amount of points being made. And they can't really be argued with at this moment in time. But I'll stick to what I say, I'll wait until the end of the season and go from there. I know what I'm looking for between now and then. Let's hope at the end of the season you're laughing at me for talking shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Let's hope at the end of the season you're laughing at me for talking shit Ha! I won't be laughing at anybody! That's not my way tbh!!! We'll see what happens. Haf's post just there sums it up pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 He has to go. Sooner rather than later please. If necessary, get Unsworth and Big Dunc to see us through to the end of the season and then look to replace Martinez permanently. But he has to go. Now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 He has to go. Sooner rather than later please. If necessary, get Unsworth and Big Dunc to see us through to the end of the season and then look to replace Martinez permanently. But he has to go. Now! No, no, no.... Matt, markjazzbassist and dlblue 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 I really don't understand the calls for Ferguson. People have been saying he'll get the players fired up, make them passionate, lay into them when they need it... He's in a position where he can do that now and obviously isn't doing it. Matt, dlblue and markjazzbassist 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogsy Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Unfortunately Martinez is just a part of the problem with our club. At 1-1 last night they get to bring on a £50m sub, we bring on kone ??!! That's just about sums us up. It's going to be pretty much impossible to achieve anything without large amounts of cash being spent. Yes Leicester are doing incredibly well, we did 2 seasons ago, but they are flukes, one offs, Leicester won't be up there again next season, it'll be back to normal, with Chelsea, Utd , city, Arsenal , then Spurs and Liverpool. Those clubs, the first four defiantly can just throw money at there problems, does anybody really think Chelsea will be as bad again next season ? We will struggle to be consistent until we have investment. Then we can have a more established manager, with more established players. We will lose lukaku in the summer, he ain't going to hang around, he can see that he's going to win fuck all with us unless we have some rich billionare buy us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Big Dunc and Unsworth are not a long term solution but they can get us to 40 points and that means the search for a new manager can begin now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 I really don't understand the calls for Ferguson. People have been saying he'll get the players fired up, make them passionate, lay into them when they need it... He's in a position where he can do that now and obviously isn't doing it. This. Big Dunc and Unsworth are not a long term solution but they can get us to 40 points and that means the search for a new manager can begin now. On what basis Rusty? Neither of them are pulling up trees currently. As Mark said, I thought that was Dunc's role in the First Team coaching staff, to fire the players up? If he can't do that one job as a coach with the extra pressures, how is he the best person to manage a team of players, initiative tactics and improved coaching methods? Add to that he's going through Bankruptcy, so his mind is probably elsewhere right now. They are NOT the answer. Like Hiddink (not Hiddink obviously), we'd need someone who would be willing to come in and steady the ship, a proven manager who's possible an international coach or readily available (which are rare). We either appoint short term with the guy described above or go all out and attract the long term solution. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Unfortunately Martinez is just a part of the problem with our club. At 1-1 last night they get to bring on a £50m sub, we bring on kone ??!! That's just about sums us up. It's going to be pretty much impossible to achieve anything without large amounts of cash being spent. Yes Leicester are doing incredibly well, we did 2 seasons ago, but they are flukes, one offs, Leicester won't be up there again next season, it'll be back to normal, with Chelsea, Utd , city, Arsenal , then Spurs and Liverpool. Those clubs, the first four defiantly can just throw money at there problems, does anybody really think Chelsea will be as bad again next season ? We will struggle to be consistent until we have investment. Then we can have a more established manager, with more established players. We will lose lukaku in the summer, he ain't going to hang around, he can see that he's going to win fuck all with us unless we have some rich billionare buy us! I think the problem with Kone's substitution was "why" he need to be brought on. He had to to a job that Lukaku was not doing. Deuofeu should be annoyed at big rom two games in a row for simmilar reasons. Sideliner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) This. On what basis Rusty? Neither of them are pulling up trees currently. As Mark said, I thought that was Dunc's role in the First Team coaching staff, to fire the players up? If he can't do that one job as a coach with the extra pressures, how is he the best person to manage a team of players, initiative tactics and improved coaching methods? Add to that he's going through Bankruptcy, so his mind is probably elsewhere right now. They are NOT the answer. Like Hiddink (not Hiddink obviously), we'd need someone who would be willing to come in and steady the ship, a proven manager who's possible an international coach or readily available (which are rare). We either appoint short term with the guy described above or go all out and attract the long term solution. If we can get a Hiddink character in, short term to steady the ship then great. But who would come? Now you have mentioned Hiddink, what about appointing him full time from next season once he has left Chelski? Edited January 28, 2016 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouse Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Favre would be my shout out of work done a great job a borussia Monchengladbach language would be an issue initially tho markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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