Rafael Benitez

[Aidan]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Current circumstances aside we're a massively bigger club than Brighton historically, currently and going forward, even if we got relegated we'd be a bigger job than Brighton.

We've finished 10th and 12th the last 2 seasons and I doubt we will finish in the top 10 this season. I don't think we are a club that are going forward it's really difficult to see that at the minute.

[Btay]

Despite sitting 15th in the league these 2 windows are the first of which I feel we have any real direction. I think they may have been a little bit more money available than we all thought but it wasn’t spent as the right targets weren’t available. If we move Digne and maybe Holgate on we could re invest in a proper left footed cb and another dynamic midfielder. So far I’m happy with Rafa in the market.

Tactics though - he needs to get his shit together because it’s not good enough.

[RuffRob]

7 hours ago, RPG said:

I think 'consolidating and rebuilding' is perhaps where we are at the moment and that might take a season or two of mid table finishes until the squad is fully assembled and has gelled together.

Even though I don't see any great improvement in our final league placing in the next 18 months or so, I do feel that we are 'moving forward' as we are laying the foundations for future, sustainable, success. We have tried wasting Moshiri's millions to buy instant success and that didn't end well so I think we have to support this new approach.

It will take time and we have spent much of the last 8-9 years going backwards, making the job even harder.

That's pretty much exactely now I feel. 

 

[Cornish Steve]

16 hours ago, RPG said:

I think 'consolidating and rebuilding' is perhaps where we are at the moment and that might take a season or two of mid table finishes until the squad is fully assembled and has gelled together.

Even though I don't see any great improvement in our final league placing in the next 18 months or so, I do feel that we are 'moving forward' as we are laying the foundations for future, sustainable, success. We have tried wasting Moshiri's millions to buy instant success and that didn't end well so I think we have to support this new approach.

It will take time and we have spent much of the last 8-9 years going backwards, making the job even harder.

I'd suggest 'surviving' is more accurate. We're looking to make it to the summer, when funds free up with various player contracts ending.

[barryj]

I lost my last ounce of respect for him last weekend when imo he put his ego in front of the interests of the team. Why play a struggling RB at LB/LWB and bring in JJK who we all know has no future here in as part of a flat back 5 at home! What infuriated me even more was why have Digne on the bench if he didn’t have any intention of playing him? Rafas meant to be a master tactician but he clearly didn’t see that our midfield 2 were losing the battle and changes were needed earlier. Digne was clearly one of if not the best option. This didn’t happen and in my opinion he put himself and his point above that of the club. This was the straw that broke the camels back for me. 

[Btay]

26 minutes ago, RPG said:

I think we need to separate what you call his ego from his tactics.

I have no issue with him keeping Digne on the bench to reinforce the point about who is in charge.

I do have an issue with starting 5 at the back at home to Brighton and putting Coleman at LB. We should have started with a back 4. Coleman at RB, Keane plus Holgate in the middle and Godfrey at LB imho.

We might be in for a pleasant surprise v Hull. We could see a defence of:

                                                        Pickford

                             Patterson  Keane  Mina/Godfrey  Mykolenko

 

If we can sign Barkley on loan (I know not all are in favour but he is a realistic target and better than we have got at the moment) then we could have a midfield of:

 

                                                    Allan                            Doucoure

 

Gray/Gordon                                      Barkley/Gomes                              Richarlison/Townsend

 

Playing behind:

                                                              DCL/A N Other

 

I think that team would win more than it loses.

Trying to work out the team there because the format has turned into a complete mess but I will say we need to walk away from Barkley.

Doucoure has shown his quality getting forward this year we don’t need Barkley. If anything let’s get another physical midfielder & go 4-3-3. Gray, Richarlison and Dom is an excellent front 3 - Gordon is improving game on game and can provide a spark if need be. 

Midfield of Allan, Doucoure and someone who can really get stuck in and allow Doucoure forward with that front 3 is the key.

Back 5 need time to gel and hopefully these young fullbacks can perform at this level quickly. 

[StevO]

5 hours ago, RPG said:

I think we need to separate what you call his ego from his tactics.

Easy task. 
His ego is a problem. 
His tactics are a problem. 
Done. 

[Palfy]

This is a results industry and a very highly pressured industry and the buck stops with the manager not the players, we’ve had players here who are working under their 2nd 3rd 4th 5th and some even 6th manager to prove it’s the manager who pays the costs for bad results and not the players. Now we’ve got a manager that’s strong and understands that he will live and die by his decisions and is focused by his plan going forward, but because he won’t allow himself to be dictated by a player or maybe players he accused of being on some sort of ego trip, this club has  had a fucking gut full of weak management weak players and weak supporters. 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

This is a results industry and a very highly pressured industry and the buck stops with the manager not the players, 

Indeed. 1 win in 12. Worse record than Mike Walker in the same amount of games.

He should be gone.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Indeed. 1 win in 12. Worse record than Mike Walker in the same amount of games.

He should be gone.

The comparisons with Walker are completely unfair, it totally ignores all the injuries we’ve had and the problems caused by Covid not to mention the FFP constraints

 

[Romey 1878]

15 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

The comparisons with Walker are completely unfair, it totally ignores all the injuries we’ve had and the problems caused by Covid not to mention the FFP constraints

 

Of course.

2 wins since September. We're now in January. He should be gone.

[dunlopp9987]

7 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Of course.

2 wins since September. We're now in January. He should be gone.

If we weren't on our fifth manager in 5 years, I would say yes, he probably would be gone by now.

But the constant chop and change has led us nowhere, arguably led us to this clusterfuck we're in, and that's why Rafa is still in charge.

Did I want him here to begin with? No. Do I think he's the right person to lead us forward for the long-term? No. But I can't stand us continuing to fire managers and bringing in someone new, hoping they'll provide stability when all we've been able to prove in the last 5-8 years is that we're completely fucking unstable.

[Romey 1878]

Lets see where it gets us then, eh? I hope it's somewhere positive but the football is terrible, the man is terrible, the form is terrible so the signs aren't great.

[Romey 1878]

Also, @dunlopp9987, if we only win twice again in the next 3/4 months do we stick with him then too because we've gone through a few managers?

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Indeed. 1 win in 12. Worse record than Mike Walker in the same amount of games.

He should be gone.

He’s having to deal with the shit of many others, only the I unknowing would actually believe that someone could come in and change 6 years of shite with no money in his first transfer window with a catalog of injuries to most of the most important players to the team and all in a few months. If he had taken on a successful team with plenty of depth in the squad and turned it into what we see now I might agree with you, but your post proves to me you have very little understanding of the magnitude of the job he has taken on, or you would realise that time to implement a change of direction is needed. 

[Romey 1878]

4 minutes ago, Palfy said:

He’s having to deal with the shit of many others, only the I unknowing would actually believe that someone could come in and change 6 years of shite with no money in his first transfer window with a catalog of injuries to most of the most important players to the team and all in a few months. If he had taken on a successful team with plenty of depth in the squad and turned it into what we see now I might agree with you, but your post proves to me you have very little understanding of the magnitude of the job he has taken on, or you would realise that time to implement a change of direction is needed. 

He obviously felt he could come in and change things, Palf, and he convinced our owner he could too.

We've gone backwards under him so far. As I've said many times, I didn't expect anything great but I didn't expect it to be anywhere near this bad. Two wins since September is embarrassing and is very worrying.

[RuffRob]

 

5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

He’s having to deal with the shit of many others, only the I unknowing would actually believe that someone could come in and change 6 years of shite with no money in his first transfer window with a catalog of injuries to most of the most important players to the team and all in a few months. If he had taken on a successful team with plenty of depth in the squad and turned it into what we see now I might agree with you, but your post proves to me you have very little understanding of the magnitude of the job he has taken on, or you would realise that time to implement a change of direction is needed. 

Exactly this, I think panicking and giving Benitez the boot without given him a proper 18month period to properly implement his stamp on the team, squad and club, will be just as big a mistake as all the proceeding mistakes.

Benitez is standing up to players, and if the Courtinho rumours are to believed he is also willing to stand up to the owner.  He deserves another 6months just on the back of that - never mind discussing results and style of play or transfer strategy. 

 

[Romey 1878]

3 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

 

Exactly this, I think panicking and giving Benitez the boot without given him a proper 18month period to properly implement his stamp on the team, squad and club, will be just as big a mistake as all the proceeding mistakes.

Benitez is standing up to players, and if the Courtinho rumours are to believed he is also willing to stand up to the owner.  He deserves another 6months just on the back of that - never mind discussing results and style of play or transfer strategy. 

 

So if we get relegated in that 18 months you're ok with that? I'm not asking that in a shitty way by the way, I'm genuinely wondering what your answer is.

[RuffRob]

8 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

He obviously felt he could come in and change things, Palf, and he convinced our owner he could too.

We've gone backwards under him so far. As I've said many times, I didn't expect anything great but I didn't expect it to be anywhere near this bad. Two wins since September is embarrassing and is very worrying.

From a purely mathematical statistical perspective there is not any real support that we have 'gone backwards' because there have not been enough games to make this sort of judgement. Given the relatively small sample of games the results can (and in this case has defiantly been) skewed by outside forces such as lots of injuries. Its a very myopic view to make such a rash decision as to give the manager the boot based on this relatively small sample of games that have been so influenced by players being injured or not match fit. 

 

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

He obviously felt he could come in and change things, Palf, and he convinced our owner he could too.

We've gone backwards under him so far. As I've said many times, I didn't expect anything great but I didn't expect it to be anywhere near this bad. Two wins since September is embarrassing and is very worrying.

He still believes he can change things and I believe he will change things, I never expected him to do it in 4-5 months and I don’t believe he said he can do it in that time frame, we may have gone backwards in terms of recent results but is that not more because of a catalog of injuries to most of our better players and a lack of depth in the squad to bridge the caps, I believe we are going forwards with him he is buying players for positions that we need he is addressing the problems and weaknesses in the team, he first saw we lacked width so got Gray and Townsend in now he’s working on the defensive issues he’s brought in a LB and RB which the 5 managers and 2 DoF before him never seemed able to do, the next thing I think he will do is search out a better CB. You seem to think we are going down I don’t share that few for we will finish the season in a mid table position and the team will be developing and improving. 

[Romey 1878]

5 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

From a purely mathematical statistical perspective there is not any real support that we have 'gone backwards' because there have not been enough games to make this sort of judgement. Given the relatively small sample of games the results can (and in this case has defiantly been) skewed by outside forces such as lots of injuries. Its a very myopic view to make such a rash decision as to give the manager the boot based on this relatively small sample of games that have been so influenced by players being injured or not match fit. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

He still believes he can change things and I believe he will change things, I never expected him to do it in 4-5 months and I don’t believe he said he can do it in that time frame, we may have gone backwards in terms of recent results but is that not more because of a catalog of injuries to most of our better players and a lack of depth in the squad to bridge the caps, I believe we are going forwards with him he is buying players for positions that we need he is addressing the problems and weaknesses in the team, he first saw we lacked width so got Gray and Townsend in now he’s working on the defensive issues he’s brought in a LB and RB which the 5 managers and 2 DoF before him never seemed able to do, the next thing I think he will do is search out a better CB. You seem to think we are going down I don’t share that few for we will finish the season in a mid table position and the team will be developing and improving. 

I genuinely hope you're both right.

[Palfy]

21 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

 

I genuinely hope you're both right.

And without trying to be a dick I hope your wrong, not for any personal gratification but because we need to to get some stability back. I’m also quite aware that he might get the push in 3 or 4 weeks and we will move on to another episode of our turbulent few years and that prospect scares me more than the one we are in now. I don’t want to fall out with anyone who thinks Benitez should be sacked immediately because I know that comes from a love for the club and a genuine concern for our future, as those who feel he should be given more time are also doing so for the right reasons. 

[dunlopp9987]

3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

And without trying to be a dick I hope your wrong, not for any personal gratification but because we need to to get some stability back. I’m also quite aware that he might get the push in 3 or 4 weeks and we will move on to another episode of our turbulent few years and that prospect scares me more than the one we are in now. I don’t want to fall out with anyone who thinks Benitez should be sacked immediately because I know that comes from a love for the club and a genuine concern for our future, as those who feel he should be given more time are also doing so for the right reasons. 

Exactly this. There might be a stark difference between the two camps, but ultimately both sides want what's best for the club, we just have differing viewpoints as to how that should be accomplished.

[Wiggytop]

32 minutes ago, Palfy said:

And without trying to be a dick I hope your wrong, not for any personal gratification but because we need to to get some stability back. I’m also quite aware that he might get the push in 3 or 4 weeks and we will move on to another episode of our turbulent few years and that prospect scares me more than the one we are in now. I don’t want to fall out with anyone who thinks Benitez should be sacked immediately because I know that comes from a love for the club and a genuine concern for our future, as those who feel he should be given more time are also doing so for the right reasons. 

I don’t think any of us are trying to be dicks, it is just our passion for our club. Walking away from Goodison on Sunday I was ready for him to go after setting us so so wrong and failing to change it.

But time moves on, and and on reflection I think he needs this window to show what shape and type of player he is trying to bring to the club, and while it’s painful to see where we are atm a win tomorrow and 4 points from Leicester and Norwich will see us moving in the right direction.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

The main reason I don’t want him sacked yet is because I just think it’s impossible to judge Rafa one way or the other at the moment given the circumstances. Yes he knew we had no money and yes he knew how poor the squad was before he took over but he certainly did not know the squad would be decimated by injuries & covid in the way it has. 
If you rip the spine out of virtually any team in the Premiership bar maybe City and Chelsea then they will struggle. We have been shite ever since Moyes left bar that first season under Martinez and a succession of managers have failed to get a tune out of this squad even when everyone is fully fit so how are people expecting Rafa to turn it around under these circumstances?

Before the injuries struck we were doing alright and everyone seems to have lost sight of that. Yes we hadn’t played anyone of any note but how many shit teams have deservedly left Goodison Park with all three points in recent years?

I don’t think you can even judge him in the transfer market yet. While Gray and Townsend were definitely Rafa signings Ukrainian Mik and Nathan Patterson have clearly been scouted extensively and were in the pipeline long before Rafa got here

Everyone in here has been saying this bunch of tossers have been getting away with far too much for far too long and we need a manger who won’t stand for it, then we get one and people are up in arms

He has fallen out with one of our senior players, something he has a track record for doing, but I’m told there is a good reason this time

So yes things are really bad at the moment but I firmly believe there are many mitigating circumstances for that and so comparisons to Mike Walker are just ridiculous 

People say there is no plan and can’t see what type of team we are trying to be and that is true at the moment we look completely clueless and unorganised at times , well most of the time, but again I think that is down to circumstances. He clearly bought Gray and Townsend to get crosses into DCL but the plan was out of the window after 3 games

So for me he hasn’t had a chance to show what he can do so doesn’t deserve the boot

If the form doesn’t improve when everyone is back then fair enough we need to get rid

 

 

[StevO]

2 hours ago, RuffRob said:

From a purely mathematical statistical perspective there is not any real support that we have 'gone backwards' because there have not been enough games to make this sort of judgement. Given the relatively small sample of games the results can (and in this case has defiantly been) skewed by outside forces such as lots of injuries. Its a very myopic view to make such a rash decision as to give the manager the boot based on this relatively small sample of games that have been so influenced by players being injured or not match fit. 

 

But you didn’t answer Marks question. 
 

3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

So if we get relegated in that 18 months you're ok with that? I'm not asking that in a shitty way by the way, I'm genuinely wondering what your answer is.

No one who is pro Rafa ever answers this question. 
Do we stick with him for the 18 months everyone keeps saying, even if we get relegated? 

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, StevO said:

But you didn’t answer Marks question. 
 

No one who is pro Rafa ever answers this question. 
Do we stick with him for the 18 months everyone keeps saying, even if we get relegated? 

I believe I answered that question when you asked me a few days ago. 

[StevO]

6 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I believe I answered that question when you asked me a few days ago. 

Then sorry mate, I don’t recall the answer. 

[Palfy]

Just now, StevO said:

Then sorry mate, I don’t recall the answer. 

Or you didn’t like the answer

[StevO]

2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Or you didn’t like the answer

Haha I might not have liked it, but I still don’t remember it.