Ifs, buts and Maybes

[Hafnia]

9 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I really don't know why some were so worried about Luton.

We didn't even pick up our first point until the fourth game of the season. Our first win didn't come until the sixth game of the season. We went 14 games without winning a game. We had two points deductions that took two wins and a draw off us. And still Luton couldn't get ahead of us in the league.

We have won double the amount of games they have but, please, tell me how much better they are than us.

Hopefully there'll be less flapping from some of our fans next season .

Yeah it's almost as though you never started flapping when they were 3-0 up vs Newcastle and you weren't watching their games with an element of concern.

they should never have been a concern with the injuries they had. 

Hopefully next season we don't play football like our team is on a collective wage bill less than of Doucoure and put together for less the price of Beto. 
 

I'm happy to root for Burnley to survive now to see those pair of poverty chanting Tory lovers down 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Yeah it's almost as though you never started flapping when they were 3-0 up vs Newcastle and you weren't watching their games with an element of concern.

they should never have been a concern with the injuries they had. 

Hopefully next season we don't play football like our team is on a collective wage bill less than of Doucoure and put together for less the price of Beto. 
 

I'm happy to root for Burnley to survive now to see those pair of poverty chanting Tory lovers down 

I wouldn't say I was flapping mate. That game probably reinforced my view because going 3-0 up and then somehow still fucking it up tells you everything that they are.

I've always been confident we'd be above them and didn't see them as anything to be concerned about. We had that discussion many times Haf.

[MikeO]

Can honestly say I've never once worried about what results the teams around/below us were getting. If we'd have become reliant on them dropping points it'd have been different, but that was never the case; it was always in our own hands.

[Goodison Glory]

At one point in the not so distant past, our form and performances were so dire, that having enough points left to play for was not really a motivating factor. The collective shit show from the 3 promoted teams is the main reason the corrupt PL didn't get their way. 

  

[Cornish Steve]

6 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I really don't know why some were so worried about Luton.

We didn't even pick up our first point until the fourth game of the season. Our first win didn't come until the sixth game of the season. We went 14 games without winning a game. We had two points deductions that took two wins and a draw off us. And still Luton couldn't get ahead of us in the league.

We have won double the amount of games they have but, please, tell me how much better they are than us.

Hopefully there'll be less flapping from some of our fans next season .

I'm still hoping they'll climb above Forest.

[Palfy]

I’ve always maintained that we wouldn’t go down and have always said the 3 to go down would be Sheffield, Burnley, and Luton, and the 3 that come up next season will be the same 3 that go down. But that doesn’t in any way make me feel any better we have been absolutely terrible this season, and if people believe that the mark of a good season is too avoid relegation then crack on, but for me I’ve been embarrassed at some of the football we’ve played and won’t be looking at this season or last as a success. 

[Btay]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I’ve always maintained that we wouldn’t go down and have always said the 3 to go down would be Sheffield, Burnley, and Luton, and the 3 that come up next season will be the same 3 that go down. But that doesn’t in any way make me feel any better we have been absolutely terrible this season, and if people believe that the mark of a good season is too avoid relegation then crack on, but for me I’ve been embarrassed at some of the football we’ve played and won’t be looking at this season or last as a success. 

I agree about the style of football but I feel for Dyche a bit on that front. Doucoure is somewhat effective in this system to grind out results however as soon as we start playing any sort of football through him it breaks down.

I really hope Thewell has found some gems in the market for next year, we desperately need to add 4+ good quality players.

 

 

[dunlopp9987]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I’ve always maintained that we wouldn’t go down and have always said the 3 to go down would be Sheffield, Burnley, and Luton, and the 3 that come up next season will be the same 3 that go down. But that doesn’t in any way make me feel any better we have been absolutely terrible this season, and if people believe that the mark of a good season is too avoid relegation then crack on, but for me I’ve been embarrassed at some of the football we’ve played and won’t be looking at this season or last as a success. 

I guess this is the part that baffles me about this point of view.

We get hit with the largest points deduction in EPL history, and yet we still secure safety with 3 games to spare and will likely finish higher than we did the previous 2 seasons.

How is that not a success?

[Hafnia]

16 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

I guess this is the part that baffles me about this point of view.

We get hit with the largest points deduction in EPL history, and yet we still secure safety with 3 games to spare and will likely finish higher than we did the previous 2 seasons.

How is that not a success?

I think he explains why perfectly. 

nearly all will say job done and we got over the line and let's move on. imo Theres nothing to be celebrated - just relief.  4 months without a win and some truly awful football. 

we can have anger at the epl etc but the coaching and tactical side of things was poor.

we got over the line and we can be grateful that we never went down but that was an awful season for many reasons. The one solid consistent was the spirit of the fans fighting for the club. 
 

lets not start baiting people who have different expectations - it's an opinion. 
 

 

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, dunlopp9987 said:

I guess this is the part that baffles me about this point of view.

We get hit with the largest points deduction in EPL history, and yet we still secure safety with 3 games to spare and will likely finish higher than we did the previous 2 seasons.

How is that not a success?

If you are prepared to accept the longest run in our history without a win, and if you are prepared to accept some of the worst football played by an Everton team in my lifetime that’s for sure, and if you are prepared to accept some of the poorest managerial decisions especially in game time, then yes you have your successful season, but if you aren’t prepared to accept those qualities as I don’t then imo it’s been far from a success. 
And all that you have said about points deductions, and our position in the league from last season, doesn’t make it a successful season it barely makes it bearable and just adds to how unsuccessful the seasons have been for many years now, from the running of the club and the football we have witnessed. 
And if it still baffles you try setting your sights a little higher and you may then experience the disappointment that I and many others like me feel about how successful we’ve been. 

[dunlopp9987]

16 minutes ago, Palfy said:

If you are prepared to accept the longest run in our history without a win, and if you are prepared to accept some of the worst football played by an Everton team in my lifetime that’s for sure, and if you are prepared to accept some of the poorest managerial decisions especially in game time, then yes you have your successful season, but if you aren’t prepared to accept those qualities as I don’t then imo it’s been far from a success. 
And all that you have said about points deductions, and our position in the league from last season, doesn’t make it a successful season it barely makes it bearable and just adds to how unsuccessful the seasons have been for many years now, from the running of the club and the football we have witnessed. 
And if it still baffles you try setting your sights a little higher and you may then experience the disappointment that I and many others like me feel about how successful we’ve been. 

There's no point in going back and forth on this, with both you and Haf. You two have your opinions, 95% of everyone else on here has ours

I'm a realist, and that's why I view this season as a success. My sights weren't set higher because of what this club has been through the last few years and will continue to go through. With the absolute dumpster-fire that this club has been, I think I quite rightly am allowed to have a pretty low bar for what a "successful" season is

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

There's no point in going back and forth on this, with both you and Haf. You two have your opinions, 95% of everyone else on here has ours

I'm a realist, and that's why I view this season as a success. My sights weren't set higher because of what this club has been through the last few years and will continue to go through. With the absolute dumpster-fire that this club has been, I think I quite rightly am allowed to have a pretty low bar for what a "successful" season is

So why question mine aren’t I allowed to have a higher standard, I’ve supported this club through highs and lows for 57 years one of the biggest clubs in English football with a history of success, once you start accepting mediocre you inevitable get mediocre. 
Someone has to say it’s not good enough and demand better and that someone always falls at the feet of the supporters and if 95% of people in your estimation believe this was a successful season then I’m honestly surprised and disappointed. But as you say not worth discussing it you keep your bar low and I’ll keep mine high and you’ll get to enjoy every season and I’ll end up being disappointed. 
But let’s get one thing clear when you challenge my opinion and then ask me to challenge your opinion you are going to get a response even if you are in the gang of 95%. 

[Matt]

10 hours ago, Palfy said:

I’ve always maintained that we wouldn’t go down and have always said the 3 to go down would be Sheffield, Burnley, and Luton, and the 3 that come up next season will be the same 3 that go down. But that doesn’t in any way make me feel any better we have been absolutely terrible this season, and if people believe that the mark of a good season is too avoid relegation then crack on, but for me I’ve been embarrassed at some of the football we’ve played and won’t be looking at this season or last as a success. 

Think the mark of a good season is defined by the expectations and previous seasons. We should be comfortably mid table and potentially should've been chasing Europe if not for the points. Massively improved defensive, increased in shots and shots on target, nearly 1 in 3 clean sheets with 0 budget, a ragtag threadbare squad of aging or green players...

Form this year:

https://www.soccerstats.com/team.asp?league=england&stats=9-everton

Fun fact, we've won 50% more games than last season.

The previous season and others are available in the link. I've shared this one because it's colour coded and it highlights the substantial turnaround in results.

I'd say it's a pretty damn good season. If the style next year continues to be more direct than a balance, then I'll get a bit critical. But all things considered, especially if you compare to 2 years ago, we've made massive progress. 

 

 

[Newty82]

11 hours ago, Palfy said:

I’ve always maintained that we wouldn’t go down and have always said the 3 to go down would be Sheffield, Burnley, and Luton, and the 3 that come up next season will be the same 3 that go down. But that doesn’t in any way make me feel any better we have been absolutely terrible this season, and if people believe that the mark of a good season is too avoid relegation then crack on, but for me I’ve been embarrassed at some of the football we’ve played and won’t be looking at this season or last as a success. 

Pretty sure you haven't always maintained that position.

IIRC, you were calling for Dyche to be sacked several times otherwise we'd go down?

I'm terms of success...many of us (obviously wronguns, aren't we?!) define 'success' based on the current reality of where the club is. Many of us nutjobs, at the beginning of the season, defined 'success' as not having to worry about relegation. Maybe 10th at best, down to 14th but clear of relegation with plenty of games to spare.

Of course, the points deductions reshaped our reality. So, again, should reshape what we define as 'success'.

Non of us want this to be our reality season after season. All of us want to get back to the days of defining success as pushing at the top and winning stuff.

Backing your beliefs with how many years you've supported the club, 'I've seen this in the 80s...', I expect the School of Science...is fine. But makes no difference to the current reality the club is in. It doesnt make you a bigger fan than those who accept where we are. Or that we've seen no progress in over 30 years.

One little step at a time...otherwise we lose our sanity

[Palfy]

21 minutes ago, Matt said:

Think the mark of a good season is defined by the expectations and previous seasons. We should be comfortably mid table and potentially should've been chasing Europe if not for the points. Massively improved defensive, increased in shots and shots on target, nearly 1 in 3 clean sheets with 0 budget, a ragtag threadbare squad of aging or green players...

Form this year:

https://www.soccerstats.com/team.asp?league=england&stats=9-everton

Fun fact, we've won 50% more games than last season.

The previous season and others are available in the link. I've shared this one because it's colour coded and it highlights the substantial turnaround in results.

I'd say it's a pretty damn good season. If the style next year continues to be more direct than a balance, then I'll get a bit critical. But all things considered, especially if you compare to 2 years ago, we've made massive progress. 

 

 

But has it been a successful season for me it hasn’t it’s been barely bearable, for me a successful season will be when we are pushing for a top 6 position, with a club that is being run on solid foundations, this may happen next season or the season after and so forth until we get a buyer that knows how to run a club, but fighting to stay in the league for 3 seasons for what ever reason doesn’t constitute a success for me, showing signs of improvement isn’t a reason to call a season successful. 
Strangely I don’t think I said there hadn’t been any improvement I said it wasn’t a successful season which it hasn’t unless of course we view staying up as successful, then dunlopp chimes in with it has been a successful season, I would go as far as to say that if the manager and players were asked whether they thought this was a successful season to a man they would so no, if you asked them if this was a fraught and hard season and they had conquered some big hurdles they would say yes. 

[Matt]

Just now, Palfy said:

But has it been a successful season for me it hasn’t it’s been barely bearable, for me a successful season will be when we are pushing for a top 6 position, with a club that is being run on solid foundations, this may happen next season or the season after and so forth until we get a buyer that knows how to run a club, but fighting to stay in the league for 3 seasons for what ever reason doesn’t constitute a success for me, showing signs of improvement isn’t a reason to call a season successful. 
Strangely I don’t think I said there hadn’t been any improvement I said it wasn’t a successful season which it hasn’t unless of course we view staying up as successful, then dunlopp chimes in with it has been a successful season, I would go as far as to say that if the manager and players were asked whether they thought this was a successful season to a man they would so no, if you asked them if this was a fraught and hard season and they had conquered some big hurdles they would say yes. 

Yes. Considering the previous 2 seasons and the absolute shitshow around the club it's a massive success. I'm not entirely joking that Dyche should be talked about for manager of the season all things considered, although there's a bit of tongue in cheek there. 

Newty said things perfectly.

[Matt]

Don't forget that success doesn't equal good enough, they're not always linked. The football is not good enough, but it's been effective for the most part. So next seasons success will be safe by January and better play, though that depends on the squad movements too

[patto]

37 minutes ago, Matt said:

Don't forget that success doesn't equal good enough, they're not always linked. The football is not good enough, but it's been effective for the most part. So next seasons success will be safe by January and better play, though that depends on the squad movements too

Next season everything will depend on recruitment we already know Onana and Branthwaite will leave so we have to replace them with players of equal talent and retain some money as well so it will be very hard to do. 
others that leave won’t be so significant probably 3 or 4. 

[Hafnia]

Just now, patto said:

Next season everything will depend on recruitment we already know Onana and Branthwaite will leave so we have to replace them with players of equal talent and retain some money as well so it will be very hard to do. 
others that leave won’t be so significant probably 3 or 4. 

Replacing branthwaite is impossible. I'd like to think we could sell Onana, Maupay, and maybe a new buyer could see us with a big cash injection where we say "we will go heavy on transfers and take a fine next year" - bit extreme but we need to consider all options. 

[Romey 1878]

I wonder if the club will be considering holding on to Branthwaite and just taking the hit of a points deduction.

I guess that would depend on just how much it would put us over. If it would only put us a small amount over then you'd have to consider it. If it leaves us massively over then obviously it would be out of the question.

[patto]

4 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I wonder if the club will be considering holding on to Branthwaite and just taking the hit of a points deduction.

I guess that would depend on just how much it would put us over. If it would only put us a small amount over then you'd have to consider it. If it leaves us massively over then obviously it would be out of the question.

Don’t be surprised if the deal for Branthwaite is already done I’m not sure about Onana but I hope he leaves for a decent fee although I don’t envisage a big profit 

[Romey 1878]

3 minutes ago, patto said:

Don’t be surprised if the deal for Branthwaite is already done I’m not sure about Onana but I hope he leaves for a decent fee although I don’t envisage a big profit 

Considering I've already posted about it being a done deal (not that I believe it), it would be very strange to be surprised by it .

[patto]

18 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Considering I've already posted about it being a done deal (not that I believe it), it would be very strange to be surprised by it .

I missed your post but why don’t you believe it ?

[Romey 1878]

3 minutes ago, patto said:

I missed your post but why don’t you believe it ?

Because £60m to United sounds wrong.

We won't get what we should get for him but £60m is still too low, and to go to United... he can do much better than that and it would be mad to agree to go there.

[patto]

1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

Because £60m to United sounds wrong.

We won't get what we should get for him but £60m is still too low, and to go to United... he can do much better than that and it would be mad to agree to go there.

I think it would be a great move for Branthwaite they have some very good youngsters coming through. 

[Matt]

11 minutes ago, patto said:

I think it would be a great move for Branthwaite they have some very good youngsters coming through. 

True and I see what you're getting at. But ETH isn't guaranteed to be around much longer so do you move and hope the new guy plays you ahead of Maguire? 

£60m for him in this market and recent transfers is about £20m short before add ons. I hope we don't sell early for the sake of the books and we just take the hit, the PL will find a way of screwing us in any case so why take a 30% hit.

He's got City written all over, potentially Arsenal if they win this season. He's going to be a world beater.

[patto]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

True and I see what you're getting at. But ETH isn't guaranteed to be around much longer so do you move and hope the new guy plays you ahead of Maguire? 

£60m for him in this market and recent transfers is about £20m short before add ons. I hope we don't sell early for the sake of the books and we just take the hit, the PL will find a way of screwing us in any case so why take a 30% hit.

He's got City written all over, potentially Arsenal if they win this season. He's going to be a world beater.

Not sure he would want to go to Arsenal don’t mean to upset anyone but why would you want to go to London 

I agree city would be ideal but they don’t appear to have made a move. 
the United deal if it happens will be more than just money 

[Matt]

39 minutes ago, patto said:

Not sure he would want to go to Arsenal don’t mean to upset anyone but why would you want to go to London 

I agree city would be ideal but they don’t appear to have made a move. 
the United deal if it happens will be more than just money 

I'm thinking more about possession based teams, he could fit in at Barca or Real too, he really is that good in my eyes.

[patto]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

I'm thinking more about possession based teams, he could fit in at Barca or Real too, he really is that good in my eyes.

He is that good but hard cash is in shortage to all clubs even the top ones 

[RuffRob]

1 hour ago, patto said:

Don’t be surprised if the deal for Branthwaite is already done I’m not sure about Onana but I hope he leaves for a decent fee although I don’t envisage a big profit 

nothing will be already done - becasue at anytime before the opening of the transfer window we could (most likely be or at the cusp) of a new ownership model.