Sean Dyche

[patto]

1 minute ago, RuffRob said:

 I imagine in an ideal world he would be out on loan (and may do next season) - but we have a pretty thin squadwise this season. I would also guess as he has come from overseas, a season or half a season with the first team at Finch Farm and the experience with matchday squads will give him a great flavour of what he should be working for.   

I wouldn't have a problem with him going out on a Branthwaithe type loan when the time is right. 

I would imagine that would be James Vaughns decision 

[patto]

17 minutes ago, MikeO said:

What do they know?

On the vids they release in training I don’t think I’ve seen him train although he must have done. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, patto said:

Matt I understand that but when we paid big money that was all wasted with the exception of Kean the rest were a disaster. 
All with the consent of poor managers the worst being Koeman. 

Exception of Stones maybe? I'd say Geri wasn't a disaster either, Patterson is still developing.

I was a fan of both Vlasic and Besic but the management around that time was, as you say, poor (to put it mildly).

[patto]

7 minutes ago, Matt said:

Exception of Stones maybe? I'd say Geri wasn't a disaster either, Patterson is still developing.

I was a fan of both Vlasic and Besic but the management around that time was, as you say, poor (to put it mildly).

No I said the big money buys where a disaster stones only cost 2m he and Lukaku where the best buys we’ve ever made plus Cahill 

[Cornish Steve]

10 hours ago, RuffRob said:

I put this Chermiti signing in maybe a similar bracket to Stones, Deulofeu, Vlasic, Onyekuru, Lookman, Kean, Besic & Patterson. A reasonable fee for young players but unproven in the Premier league. They are not all going to succeed, but in most cases you would expect to be able to get most of your money back - on average you are not going to lose millions and possibly even turn a modest profit on some of them. Its a near cost neutral approach. I see Chermiti as a low risk stratergy purchase. 

It's when we have tried to buy more 'proven' player in their prime and at top doller where we have fucked up as a club.  

 

We should add DC-L to that list. He came in around the same time as Lookman and their potential seemed similar at the time. 

[RuffRob]

10 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

We should add DC-L to that list. He came in around the same time as Lookman and their potential seemed similar at the time. 

yes, and even Branthwaithe - but at £1.5M and £1M respectively these two where even rawer than those listed and came in at what I would say are neglible fees. But if I listed these two I would also have to list similar purchases that never made it (but couldn't be bothered looking for these names) .  

Even at the other end of the scale when we have pushed the boat out and paid big money for young players (21 and below) we have done very well. Fellaini, Richarlison, Lukaku, Onana and can't think of any massive flops. 

We seem to have shit the bed transfer wise when going in to the market for older and what may be deemed more established players (23+) - paying top doller in transfer fees and wages. There is a list as long as your arm of flops that have cost this club a fortune, and very few successes. 

Maybe a 80-90% sucess rate in under 21 purchases and health net profit.

and a 80-90% failure rate in 23+ purchases with transfer fee and wage expenditure that has brought the club to its knees. 

we have simply got the balance all wrong for a club who are not in the money generating super club bracket. 

 

[Trigger]

Which Premier League team is under-performing most? Opta say 11th is about right for Man United, Ch… https://mol.im/a/12644779 via https://dailym.ai/android

 

Let's not play any real matches anymore, just let the data AI analytics work it all out!

We're in Europe next season lads!

[Cornish Steve]

3 hours ago, Trigger said:

Which Premier League team is under-performing most? Opta say 11th is about right for Man United, Ch… https://mol.im/a/12644779 via https://dailym.ai/android

 

Let's not play any real matches anymore, just let the data AI analytics work it all out!

We're in Europe next season lads!

What this is saying is that we did the right thing during the transfer window, and it really should pay off.

[Goodison Glory]

Is it not saying we should get rid of the manager cos we are massively under performing

[Hafnia]

The simple fact of the matter is we should be looking at the manager market as intently as we do the player market with the sole aim “if we can get better than we already have - make the deal”

i believe we can get better in all areas - Brighton are evidence of this. 

 I would be disappointed if we didn’t have targets lined up for next season. 

[patto]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

The simple fact of the matter is we should be looking at the manager market as intently as we do the player market with the sole aim “if we can get better than we already have - make the deal”

i believe we can get better in all areas - Brighton are evidence of this. 

 I would be disappointed if we didn’t have targets lined up for next season. 

Haf we don’t have any money we have brought players in now that aren’t payed for. 

[Matt]

5 hours ago, Hafnia said:

The simple fact of the matter is we should be looking at the manager market as intently as we do the player market with the sole aim “if we can get better than we already have - make the deal”

i believe we can get better in all areas - Brighton are evidence of this. 

 I would be disappointed if we didn’t have targets lined up for next season. 

Absolutely so long as it's a list of potential and not things moving in the background.

[Btay]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Absolutely so long as it's a list of potential and not things moving in the background.

Echo this. There should always be alternatives identified but for the moment we need stability mixed with progress. I believe we are getting that at the moment.

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, Btay said:

Echo this. There should always be alternatives identified but for the moment we need stability mixed with progress. I believe we are getting that at the moment.

Same here. He's not going to get us into Europe, at least unlikely, but he will and is steadying the ship with KT. That's fine for the next 2 seasons, then we kick on. 

Can't remember how many times I've had to say this, but change takes a looooong time even in basic projects. This is a massive program (collection of projects working towards the same goal) and whilst succession planning is certainly key, working with what we've got when there's progress is frustrating but necessary.

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Can't remember how many times I've had to say this..

I counted forty-two as of yesterday so that makes forty-three...not that I'm saying you're at all boring

[RuffRob]

57 minutes ago, Matt said:

Same here. He's not going to get us into Europe, at least unlikely, but he will and is steadying the ship with KT. That's fine for the next 2 seasons, then we kick on. 

Can't remember how many times I've had to say this, but change takes a looooong time even in basic projects. This is a massive program (collection of projects working towards the same goal) and whilst succession planning is certainly key, working with what we've got when there's progress is frustrating but necessary.

I don't know, until shown otherwise I am going to give Dyche the benefit of the doubt, and if we progress under him steady (as I think we have done this season) I see no reason why he can't get the team pushing for Europe in 18 months to two years time. I see Dyche much more like Moyes than say an Allerdyce type. Moyes developed a team and himself as a coach at Everton, and if given time don't see why Dyche couldn't do the same.

There is not a massive amount in it between a team on the finges of European football and those hovering above the relegation zone - need a bit of luck, limited injuries and a bit of confidence and consistency in all honesty. 

Dyche's teams have shown in most games this season we can actually be competative. It's be a while since I have seen this. 

However, a club should ALWAYS have a short list of potential alternative replacment managers (which should be reviewed on a regular basis), not matter how the team is doing.  Managers can also disappear on you when they and the team are doing well also. 

 

[Matt]

11 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

I don't know, until shown otherwise I am going to give Dyche the benefit of the doubt, and if we progress under him steady (as I think we have done this season) I see no reason why he can't get the team pushing for Europe in 18 months to two years time. I see Dyche much more like Moyes than say an Allerdyce type. Moyes developed a team and himself as a coach at Everton, and if given time don't see why Dyche couldn't do the same.

There is not a massive amount in it between a team on the finges of European football and those hovering above the relegation zone - need a bit of luck, limited injuries and a bit of confidence and consistency in all honesty. 

Dyche's teams have shown in most games this season we can actually be competative. It's be a while since I have seen this. 

However, a club should ALWAYS have a short list of potential alternative replacment managers (which should be reviewed on a regular basis), not matter how the team is doing.  Managers can also disappear on you when they and the team are doing well also. 

 

I think that's a fair comparison. But the difference is Moyes had 3-4 competing teams for Europe, now there's 7-8. 

[RuffRob]

We do seem to have moved to a top 7 rather than a top 6 set of clubs, with a very lucky Newcastle getting a CL place last season - their takeover seems to be working to perfection - all their transfer look to have worked out. Newcastle seems to be new 'story' and they look to be capitalising on this. 

Villa are improving. However, we will see how it goes with them as they have spent big and not sure how much better there geneal revenue is compared to ours.  If Emry is the reason, do Villa keep hold of him, and there big players if the big teams come knocking? Villa more likely to end up like us or Leicester in two seasons time as they are to be challenging CL on a regular basis.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

[Matt]

It's almost like he reads TT

 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

It's almost like he reads TT

 

It’s almost like he’s having an interview for a contract extension.

personally I think he’s done ok, some elements of his management we’ve needed and not seen in ages such as the discipline and fitness being improved.   Coaching wise and tactics aren’t good enough to take us where we want to be so I really do hope the dof has been spending the past months researching the next manager. 

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

It’s almost like he’s having an interview for a contract extension.

personally I think he’s done ok, some elements of his management we’ve needed and not seen in ages such as the discipline and fitness being improved.   Coaching wise and tactics aren’t good enough to take us where we want to be so I really do hope the dof has been spending the past months researching the next manager. 

Think we've both said the same in the past but I'll keep reiterating the fact we need time and stability to achieve the solid foundation to go forward on. That's at least this season and next. It's not gonna be pretty, it is going to be frustrating but I'll take both of those things over last day survival fights and if it puts that confidence and workrate back in the squad. 

[London Blue]

I really like Dyche and hope he is given time to improve us. I just wish the man would find a cure for Moyes syndrome and be able make substitutions at the right times.

Bringing on Dnjuma and Beto with about 20 minutes to go would have given us more energy.

[RuffRob]

5 hours ago, Hafnia said:

It’s almost like he’s having an interview for a contract extension.

personally I think he’s done ok, some elements of his management we’ve needed and not seen in ages such as the discipline and fitness being improved.   Coaching wise and tactics aren’t good enough to take us where we want to be so I really do hope the dof has been spending the past months researching the next manager. 

I think he has done much better than OK, he has followed a string of managers who have all in one way or another (and I include Ancelloti in this) slowly brought this club to its knees both financially and footballing wise.

Dyche is going about this team and club in the right way - getting the basics right for a team who have been poor on quality, low in confidence and frigile both mentally and physically and at times looking disinterested. 

Forget about overall footballing philosphy and tactical nuances, there has been far more wrong with this team than this issue.

I think Dyche is addressing the fundamental problems and addressing them properly. His mantra when he walking in the door was 'minimum requirement is maximum effort'. This is what we are seeing and its proving to be a good foundation for much improved performances and results.

I have said it in another post - we look to have transitioned from the team that everybody wants to play (as its a great opertunity to walk away 3 points) to a team that are going to give you a tough game and now increasingly likley to nick the points from you. This is a significant and welcome swing. 

 

 

[Hafnia]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Think we've both said the same in the past but I'll keep reiterating the fact we need time and stability to achieve the solid foundation to go forward on. That's at least this season and next. It's not gonna be pretty, it is going to be frustrating but I'll take both of those things over last day survival fights and if it puts that confidence and workrate back in the squad. 

The last day survival sagas are not good at all.  
 

For me - Everton should never be in the conversations for teams to go down. A club that is able to pay the wages that we pay should not be worrying about clubs like we have. 2 years ago we were 7th highest wage bill and now 10th.

has a club with that level of salary expenditure ever been relegated? Leicester probably got the closest last year and they were 11th highest wage bill, prior to that Newcastle back in 2016 but their wages bill was £800k a week less than ours was last year. 
 

the point I’m making is that if we get our signings and renewals smarter we shouldn’t even be in the conversation.  We need to be looking up rather than down, Dyche has undoubtedly made things better in that regard but I still don’t think he is the manager to build a side and progress to the levels where he is transforming our style - he more or less admitted that his job is to consolidate us and we get a new manager to take to the next stage. 

[RuffRob]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

the point I’m making is that if we get our signings and renewals smarter we shouldn’t even be in the conversation.  We need to be looking up rather than down, Dyche has undoubtedly made things better in that regard but I still don’t think he is the manager to build a side and progress to the levels where he is transforming our style - he more or less admitted that his job is to consolidate us and we get a new manager to take to the next stage. 

If we are steadily imporving, does he not deserve the opertunity to develop as manager with the club?. I think it would be rather disrepectful to dump him simply becasue we feel we deserve something 'better' than him.

If I saw another club do that to a manager, I would think what a bunch of shithouese, they deserve everything they get.

 

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

The last day survival sagas are not good at all.  
 

For me - Everton should never be in the conversations for teams to go down. A club that is able to pay the wages that we pay should not be worrying about clubs like we have. 2 years ago we were 7th highest wage bill and now 10th.

has a club with that level of salary expenditure ever been relegated? Leicester probably got the closest last year and they were 11th highest wage bill, prior to that Newcastle back in 2016 but their wages bill was £800k a week less than ours was last year. 
 

the point I’m making is that if we get our signings and renewals smarter we shouldn’t even be in the conversation.  We need to be looking up rather than down, Dyche has undoubtedly made things better in that regard but I still don’t think he is the manager to build a side and progress to the levels where he is transforming our style - he more or less admitted that his job is to consolidate us and we get a new manager to take to the next stage. 

And I agree. But before we can look at sailing a ship, you need time to plug the holes and get it steady. I keep saying 2 seasons are a minimum, largely for the obvious stability and the benefits that brings, but also because the really good things he's achieving are basically stamina and work rate. If he goes sooner, I fear that these positive steps will be lost as we've seen so often before and not really had since Moyes. 

How long do you think he should be given, out of curiosity? 

[Matt Tiger]

After the last 5 years I'm genuinely shocked how many supporters seem to want Dyche gone. This is first time in heavens knows how long that I feel like there's a plan for recruitment, there's a genuinely good squad to choose from, the wage bill is representative of where we sit in terms of current quality, and our trajectory is upwards.

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, RuffRob said:

If we are steadily imporving, does he not deserve the opertunity to develop as manager with the club?. I think it would be rather disrepectful to dump him simply becasue we feel we deserve something 'better' than him.

If I saw another club do that to a manager, I would think what a bunch of shithouese, they deserve everything they get.

 

Liverpool sacked Roger’s cos klopp was available.   Southampton sacked Adkin’s to get Poch. 
 

its not about deserving better. Its about strengthening you club if the opportunity to improve comes along. 

are you telling me that if Wayne Rooney decided at 28 that he wanted to come back to Everton that we should say no cos it would be unfair to Steven Naismith? 
 

im not saying dyche deserves the sack… im saying that Everton will need a more progressive manager. 

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

And I agree. But before we can look at sailing a ship, you need time to plug the holes and get it steady. I keep saying 2 seasons are a minimum, largely for the obvious stability and the benefits that brings, but also because the really good things he's achieving are basically stamina and work rate. If he goes sooner, I fear that these positive steps will be lost as we've seen so often before and not really had since Moyes. 

How long do you think he should be given, out of curiosity? 

Based on his current performance/trajectory I would be looking for a new manager for next season based on where I think we will finish. 

i don’t think we are gonna be exceeding 50 points, more likely to get 45-50 which you would have taken at the start of the season and it would be a big thankyou for a job well done and here’s the last year of you contract. 
 

it may well be that the bottom 3 get firmed up by end of January and he can be more adventurous and if he shows a bit of progression tactically then maybe let him start the season and take it from there. That’s what Allardyce didn’t do, when we were safe he continued to play shite football and he couldn’t argue with getting sacked.