Hafnia Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 No Im sorry I don't get the point at all Ok so you say he should be in the side, but at whose expense? There were times last season were I would rather have had Duffy than Hietinga but that would still only get him a place on the bench Im also dead against putting out a reserve side in the Cup, I want us to win something and the best chance we have of doing that is to take the Cup competitions seriously and for me that means fielding your strongest side not pitching in your 4th best CB just because he is under the age of 21 If these lads need to develop send them out on loan, don't jeopardise what little chance we have of silverware/Europe just to give someone a game, its not Sunday league football after all I know that for some reason you love to hate Moyes and on the flip side Martinez can do no wrong so it will be interesting to see what your opinion is on this is in 6 months time if Shane Duffy is still here and still isn't in the side So what you are saying is its fine for Moyes to continue picking his favourites? That if someone comes in and takes their chance then they should be sent back to the reserves because they are young? Because really that's what happened. The poor lads head must have been all over the shop. I follow him on twitter and the praise the fans gave him was unreal, tony bellew congratulating him on his hard work and taking his chance when he got it.... Only to be put back on the bench. It wasn't the only time Moyes did that. Barkleys confidence took a nose dive after the Blackburn shepherds crook (his bad 5 minutes), when in reality he should have kept him in and let him learn from the experience. If a child falls off a bike you put them back on it, you don't lock it in the garage to become some form of reminder that bike = getting hurt. There is only one way to improve these lads, get them playing. Even if it was the last 10 minutes of a game... No that rarely happened. You can't defend the indefensible pete0 and markduff 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 So what you are saying is its fine for Moyes to continue picking his favourites? That if someone comes in and takes their chance then they should be sent back to the reserves because they are young? Because really that's what happened. The poor lads head must have been all over the shop. I follow him on twitter and the praise the fans gave him was unreal, tony bellew congratulating him on his hard work and taking his chance when he got it.... Only to be put back on the bench. It wasn't the only time Moyes did that. Barkleys confidence took a nose dive after the Blackburn shepherds crook (his bad 5 minutes), when in reality he should have kept him in and let him learn from the experience. If a child falls off a bike you put them back on it, you don't lock it in the garage to become some form of reminder that bike = getting hurt. There is only one way to improve these lads, get them playing. Even if it was the last 10 minutes of a game... No that rarely happened. You can't defend the indefensible Vellios as well Haf, he came in off the bench and scored a few when no one else looked even remotely like scoring then because of ONE bad start he went the way of Duffy/Barkley never to be seen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 Vellios as well Haf, he came in off the bench and scored a few when no one else looked even remotely like scoring then because of ONE bad start he went the way of Duffy/Barkley never to be seen again. It's quite scary to think of the ones we don't know about. How good could Wallace have been - he refused a contract. Did Baxter really get a fair crack? He actually refused to sign a contract to seek football too. The underlying impression I get is that once you are given a pro contract at Everton and you have done a year in reserves - get out. I think Martinez has gone about addressing this issue. Players are getting loaned out rather than earning £2k a week to play in front of 40 people with clip boards. SimonButtle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 Vellios as well Haf, he came in off the bench and scored a few when no one else looked even remotely like scoring then because of ONE bad start he went the way of Duffy/Barkley never to be seen again. There were other issues with Vellios, but they don't go down to well when talked about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 There were other issues with Vellios, but they don't go down to well when talked about.think I'm missing something then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 (edited) He was doing lots of after hours training with Duncan, one on one. Moyes didnt take to well to it as it wasnt autorised with him. Vellios never got a look in after that for quite a while. Duncan was impressed with how much he improved and became more physical and used his body better against defenders. But last time I spoke about this I got shouted down, because that just wouldnt happen and Moyes would not get upset by staff doing unauthorised work. Edited August 10, 2013 by StevO Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 He was doing lots of after hours training with Duncan, one on one. Moyes didnt take to well to it as it wasnt autorised with him. Vellios never got a look in after that for quite a while. Duncan was impressed with how much he improved and became more physical and used his body better against defenders. But last time I spoke about this I got shouted down, because that just wouldnt happen and Moyes would not get upset by staff doing unauthorised work. I've heard this was true in numerous places. Vellios tweeted his appreciation to the big man, after that where was he..... Clash of alpha males. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 He was doing lots of after hours training with Duncan, one on one. Moyes didnt take to well to it as it wasnt autorised with him. Vellios never got a look in after that for quite a while. Duncan was impressed with how much he improved and became more physical and used his body better against defenders. But last time I spoke about this I got shouted down, because that just wouldnt happen and Moyes would not get upset by staff doing unauthorised work. Vellios likes the nightlife as well by all accounts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 Vellios likes the nightlife as well by all accounts If I looked like him I'd stay in and play FIFA like a good boy until I looked like I could pull a bird... In all seriousness, going out ain't a problem as long as they ain't getting lashed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 He was doing lots of after hours training with Duncan, one on one. Moyes didnt take to well to it as it wasnt autorised with him. Vellios never got a look in after that for quite a while. Duncan was impressed with how much he improved and became more physical and used his body better against defenders. But last time I spoke about this I got shouted down, because that just wouldnt happen and Moyes would not get upset by staff doing unauthorised work. If true then I would lose a lot of respect for Moyes. I can't imagine a manager getting upset about a player putting in extra work -- unless it was somehow dangerous to his health? I don't know. Hope it's not true, but it would explain why Vellios fell off the map. Quinn31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 I gathered it was more about not passing it by the boss first, more than the extra work itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 If true then I would lose a lot of respect for Moyes. I can't imagine a manager getting upset about a player putting in extra work -- unless it was somehow dangerous to his health? I don't know. Hope it's not true, but it would explain why Vellios fell off the map. I just can't believe it. It defies all logic, and I'd lose all respect for Moyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 If true then I would lose a lot of respect for Moyes. I can't imagine a manager getting upset about a player putting in extra work -- unless it was somehow dangerous to his health? I don't know. Hope it's not true, but it would explain why Vellios fell off the map. It is true as far as i know like the others have said, it's been mentioned in the past in various places, just seems to be one of those taboo subjects bit like "where has all the money gone Bill" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 I just can't believe it. It defies all logic, and I'd lose all respect for Moyes. How about if he's had a hard training session and been instructed by the coaching staff to go home and rest? Just playing devil's advocate . Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 How about if he's had a hard training session and been instructed by the coaching staff to go home and rest? Just playing devil's advocate . Okay, maybe a fair point there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted August 11, 2013 Report Share Posted August 11, 2013 So what you are saying is its fine for Moyes to continue picking his favourites? That if someone comes in and takes their chance then they should be sent back to the reserves because they are young? Because really that's what happened. The poor lads head must have been all over the shop. I follow him on twitter and the praise the fans gave him was unreal, tony bellew congratulating him on his hard work and taking his chance when he got it.... Only to be put back on the bench. It wasn't the only time Moyes did that. Barkleys confidence took a nose dive after the Blackburn shepherds crook (his bad 5 minutes), when in reality he should have kept him in and let him learn from the experience. If a child falls off a bike you put them back on it, you don't lock it in the garage to become some form of reminder that bike = getting hurt. There is only one way to improve these lads, get them playing. Even if it was the last 10 minutes of a game... No that rarely happened. You can't defend the indefensible Im not saying anything of the sort. Im saying that age shouldn't come into it Its a crazy idea I know but I think we should pick our best 2 CBs and if one should happen to get injured or suspended we bring in our 3rd best CB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted August 11, 2013 Report Share Posted August 11, 2013 Im not saying anything of the sort. Im saying that age shouldn't come into it Its a crazy idea I know but I think we should pick our best 2 CBs and if one should happen to get injured or suspended we bring in our 3rd best CB Regardless of form and/or fitness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted August 11, 2013 Report Share Posted August 11, 2013 Regardless of form and/or fitness? No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Im not saying anything of the sort. Im saying that age shouldn't come into it Its a crazy idea I know but I think we should pick our best 2 CBs and if one should happen to get injured or suspended we bring in our 3rd best CB Again, if a player comes in as Duffy did, doesn't put a foot wrong and actually plays very well, does that make it right to drop him for the next game? No it doesn't. With the midset of "he isn't as good as distin" how will the next generation of talent get their opportunities? Moyes model is a microcosm of the problem English football faces. Compare Josh Mceachran and Jack Wilshire. Similar ages, similar attributes, one was introduced to the first team football, given a good loan to Bolton, came back and cemented his place in the team and is now a top premier league talent. Mceachran was playing reserve team football and loaned to a club that wasn't really interested in using him - chelsea just haven't given him the chance he deserves and for me the player will not realise his potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Again, if a player comes in as Duffy did, doesn't put a foot wrong and actually plays very well, does that make it right to drop him for the next game? No it doesn't. With the midset of "he isn't as good as distin" how will the next generation of talent get their opportunities? Moyes model is a microcosm of the problem English football faces. Compare Josh Mceachran and Jack Wilshire. Similar ages, similar attributes, one was introduced to the first team football, given a good loan to Bolton, came back and cemented his place in the team and is now a top premier league talent. Mceachran was playing reserve team football and loaned to a club that wasn't really interested in using him - chelsea just haven't given him the chance he deserves and for me the player will not realise his potential. Ive already said that the best way to bring youngsters on is to send them out on loan so that they can get regular first team football so Im not too sure where you are going with that IMO when Duffy came in he was superb in the first 3 games but he had a bit of a nightmare in his final game and so I think Moyes was right not to play him agaisnt City I suppose it all boils down to what you want from Everton, If you want them to win games then we need our strongest side on the pitch . If your not arsed about the result and would rather we produced good young players then I can see why you would want them in the team Quinn31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ive already said that the best way to bring youngsters on is to send them out on loan so that they can get regular first team football so Im not too sure where you are going with that IMO when Duffy came in he was superb in the first 3 games but he had a bit of a nightmare in his final game and so I think Moyes was right not to play him agaisnt City I suppose it all boils down to what you want from Everton, If you want them to win games then we need our strongest side on the pitch . If your not arsed about the result and would rather we produced good young players then I can see why you would want them in the team Just one question then Dunc. How do they learn to play with their team mates and learn the club system if they go off playing on loan for another team. Pre season is no indicator as we are constantly reminded. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ive already said that the best way to bring youngsters on is to send them out on loan so that they can get regular first team football so Im not too sure where you are going with that IMO when Duffy came in he was superb in the first 3 games but he had a bit of a nightmare in his final game and so I think Moyes was right not to play him agaisnt City I suppose it all boils down to what you want from Everton, If you want them to win games then we need our strongest side on the pitch . If your not arsed about the result and would rather we produced good young players then I can see why you would want them in the team I accept that there will be occassions where players may be completely out of their depth. Take Coleman in the 5-0 loss at Benfica - he was played at left back and was destroyed. In fairness to Coleman he doesn't seem the type of character to take things to heart, he has the attitude of a lion. I think Moyes was a little slow to see that Coleman had the attributes to play as a right mid, he was way to wet behind the ears for the full back role. Most fans were calling for him to get the right mid slot before moyes took the chance on him, he didn't look back after that. I think the over riding point I am trying to make is that even if we had the best centre halves in the world, there is opportunities to give the likes of duffy game time. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ive already said that the best way to bring youngsters on is to send them out on loan so that they can get regular first team football so Im not too sure where you are going with that IMO when Duffy came in he was superb in the first 3 games but he had a bit of a nightmare in his final game and so I think Moyes was right not to play him agaisnt City I suppose it all boils down to what you want from Everton, If you want them to win games then we need our strongest side on the pitch . If your not arsed about the result and would rather we produced good young players then I can see why you would want them in the team I completely agree with the point in bold, however what I will add is that the strongest side is a combination of talent and form. You can have all the talent in the world but if your out of form you will struggle in the best leagues. For me, Moyes didnt pay enough attention to form, whether that be during a match and making substitutions or choosing his starting 11. pete0, Quinn31 and Sibdane 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 I completely agree with the point in bold, however what I will add is that the strongest side is a combination of talent and form. You can have all the talent in the world but if your out of form you will struggle in the best leagues. For me, Moyes didnt pay enough attention to form, whether that be during a match and making substitutions or choosing his starting 11. Form and talent combined, I don't think Duffy ever deserved to be in over Jagielka or Distin last year, had it been Duffy vs Heitinga, I think there were probably times where Duffy would've gotten in over Heitinga, but even Heitinga wasn't featuring often in the second half of the season. Matt and Bailey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) Form and talent combined, I don't think Duffy ever deserved to be in over Jagielka or Distin last year, had it been Duffy vs Heitinga, I think there were probably times where Duffy would've gotten in over Heitinga, but even Heitinga wasn't featuring often in the second half of the season. I dont know, both Jags & Distin had shocking parts during last season. It was only at the end of the season that they found their feet (although generally I would agree with your post). Other players seem to get dropped for making a small mistake yet others seem to be able to play poorly week in week out and start every game. Not just the guys at the back but also Saha & Cahill when they were here and Pienaar & Osman last season. Edited August 12, 2013 by Bailey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/339782/Everton-Under-21s-Shane-Duffy-is-wanted-by-three-different-clubs-on-loan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Be good for him. Birmingham would probably suit best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 I think Birmingham also. Sheff Wed fans annoyed me sooo much after the hillsborough truth coming out. They weren't especially appreciative of Barkley at the time either...I wonder what they think now, I don't think Davie Jones brand of non football worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markduff Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 Yeovil town it is then!! Bailey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Hoping he does well there. I still think he has a bright future at the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.