Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[Matt]

26 minutes ago, pete0 said:

More points than any outfield player before him, and Schneiderlin inadvertently played a part in McCarthy breaking his leg. We'd have been better off had we not signed either of them, kept Barry for another year and brought in upgrades or at least players that come close to the quality of Barry and McCarthy. 

 

 

[nogs]

58 minutes ago, pete0 said:

More points than any outfield player before him

 

Evidence? 

I agree with you about Barry by the way, but you're directing your disappointment about the deterioration of our midfield in entirely the wrong direction. Gana does a job, Schneiderlin was a disaster of a signing. 

[pete0]

4 minutes ago, nogs said:

Evidence? 

I agree with you about Barry by the way, but you're directing your disappointment about the deterioration of our midfield in entirely the wrong direction. Gana does a job, Schneiderlin was a disaster of a signing. 

Just look at the goals we've conceded more often than not he's involved. Next closest would be Baines/Pienaar but at least they were getting caught out attacking, Gana offers very little going forward yet is often at fault for goals. 

I'm not massive on Schneiderlin either but being next to Gana makes him look worse than he is. Last season I wanted Barry and Davies to be the starters, was gutted we then sold Barry thanks to the chuckle brothers love of Schneiderlin and Gana. Atm Schneiderlin doesn't get a game though so can't blame him, Gana is the one constant. 

[Palfy]

Schniederlin came to us started off really well from what I remember most were raving about him, then he dropped and dropped to now he's referred to as poor a waste of space he definitely isn'tt the player we originally saw.

Then Gomes turns up same as Schniederlin great player rave reviews on here and now he is slowly slipping and the people have been more cool on him and letting their feelings be known.

And for me and no one else and let's make this clear from the start before anymore accusations come flying my way, for me Gana has and is destroying them because he can't be disciplined enough to stay and old his position when the opposition have the ball he goes charging out of position chasing the ball down sometimes he wins it sometimes he, and it's the times he doesn't that leaves us wide open, and Gomes or Schniederlin with an impossible situation 2-3 men at them with all the space in the world and there on there own.

That's why in my opinion he's the common denominator because no matter who you play him with he is there doing the same thing letting his partner down and the team, in the midfield since he joined we haven't improved and in my eyes we won't unless he leaves or sees the dangers around him and I can't see that happening any day soon, so question begs who after Gomes if Gana stays

[Shukes]

Just food for thought.

No wants Morgan.... why is that? Surely if Gana makes him look bad, there should be a queue of clubs after him.

Gomes. Is desperately wanted back by Barca? Or are they willing to let him go? 

Barry. He still playing?

Three managers allow Gana to get away with playing in the wrong positions, while offering nothing to the team. Does that mean that he’s just an amazing guy? No wants to drop him because he’s so nice?

The food for though, is that, could it be.... and I’m going off on a tangent here...... the managers tell him to go pressing as they see that as his main asset? I don’t know, maybe tackling, interceptions etc? 

I know I know, radical thinking and all that.

[Palfy]

8 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Just food for thought.

No wants Morgan.... why is that? Surely if Gana makes him look bad, there should be a queue of clubs after him.

Gomes. Is desperately wanted back by Barca? Or are they willing to let him go? 

Barry. He still playing?

Three managers allow Gana to get away with playing in the wrong positions, while offering nothing to the team. Does that mean that he’s just an amazing guy? No wants to drop him because he’s so nice?

The food for though, is that, could it be.... and I’m going off on a tangent here...... the managers tell him to go pressing as they see that as his main asset? I don’t know, maybe tackling, interceptions etc? 

I know I know, radical thinking and all that.

The honest answer to questions you posted is I don't know mate, I look at what's happened since we got rid of Martinez and for all the managers we've had and all the money we've spent we haven't really improved as a team, but we have in proved in areas of the team I.e. the defence is better and the wide men have improved, the forward line is worse and so is the midfield.

Now I think most would agree we need a striker although the manager disagrees and said there other areas that need improvement, is he looking at the midfield I don't know I hope so, I have and that's why I post against Gana I try not to rant and be abusive but just to give my opinion as I see it if no one else sees it that way that's fine as long as they don't insult or try to belittle what I've said a simple I don't agree will do, or as you have done debated it sensible, but getting back to Gana I can't see anyone else lay the blame at for the way teams who we believe we are better than just cut their way through the middle of our team with such ease if you can me then do.

[Bailey]

9 hours ago, Shukes said:

Guys I’m the one who started this with what was meant to be a bit of sarcastic fun that’s all. 

Il sure Palfy, PeteO and Bailey know I do it for fun and it’s nothing personal as I often agree with all three of them (in other threads ) many times. 

People are responding to the comments I have made and as often with my.... not very well thought out comments, I seem to start a war haha.

What we can all agree on though.... is that Gana’s great!!! An Everton hero, legend and will go down in folklore! 

Troublemaker!

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

5 hours ago, nogs said:

Evidence? 

I agree with you about Barry by the way, but you're directing your disappointment about the deterioration of our midfield in entirely the wrong direction. Gana does a job, Schneiderlin was a disaster of a signing. 

There is none it’s a figment of his imagination 

[pete0]

13 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

There is none it’s a figment of his imagination 

What evidence do you have that he isn'tt? 

Do we give away more chances through the middle since he joined the club? 

Do we play with a worse tempo going forward? 

[Palfy]

11 hours ago, Shukes said:

Guys I’m the one who started this with what was meant to be a bit of sarcastic fun that’s all. 

Il sure Palfy, PeteO and Bailey know I do it for fun and it’s nothing personal as I often agree with all three of them (in other threads ) many times. 

People are responding to the comments I have made and as often with my.... not very well thought out comments, I seem to start a war haha.

What we can all agree on though.... is that Gana’s great!!! An Everton hero, legend and will go down in folklore! 

I knew that I didn't want to mention it for fear of upsetting you

[Shukes]

41 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What evidence do you have that he isn'ttt? 

Do we give away more chances through the middle since he joined the club? 

Do we play with a worse tempo going forward? 

It’s the chances thing for me PeteO. 

There is no evidence whatsoever that says we concede more chances with in the team. Yet there are stats saying he stops many many attacks against us. 

I also don’t think we play with a worse tempo.  If anything we play with a much faster tempo this year then we have for a good few years. 

I do agree Gana isn’t the best attacking player we have, but he’s not the worst either. 

Lets take the last match. He set up a chance that was missed. He also was an important factor in one of our goals. That’s a good return for a player that is primarily a break up midfielder. 

Yes, it’s not often enough. But don’t we say the same about players who’s job it is to create? Do we berate Richarlison, because he doesn’t make enough interceptions? Do we think Gomes is the second worst player in Evertons history, because he keeps giving the ball away in our last third?

Of course we don’t, because we understand that they do their job well. Just as Gana does exactly what he is meant to be doing. This is why managers pick him, teammates rate him, and generally fans appreciate him.

[nogs]

7 hours ago, Palfy said:

Schniederlin 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Palfy said:

And for me and no one else and let's make this clear from the start before anymore accusations come flying my way, for me Gana has and is destroying them because he can't be disciplined enough to stay and old his position when the opposition have the ball he goes charging out of position chasing the ball down sometimes he wins it sometimes he, and it's the times he doesn't that leaves us wide open, and Gomes or Schniederlin with an impossible situation 2-3 men at them with all the space in the world and there on there own.

Look, it's all about opinions and you're entitled to your own. But in my opinion, that's absolute bollocks fella. To lay the blame on Gana for Schneiderlin looking like he couldn't be arsed and putting in some of the most downright pathetic performances I've seen in an Everton shirt... Its just downright unfair if you ask me. And Gomes, how is he being dragged down exactly? He looked knackered over Christmas, played pretty well against Bournemouth I thought, but not as well as Gana who did a lot of his running for him. But please, I'm not having having that Schneiderlin's woeful attitude is anyone else's fault but his own. 

[pete0]

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

It’s the chances thing for me PeteO. 

There is no evidence whatsoever that says we concede more chances with in the team. Yet there are stats saying he stops many many attacks against us. 

Stats show he runs round and takles a lot and not much else, those tackle stats don't even show whether we won possession from them so I don't see how you can say he's stopping attacks. It's off ball, I doubt any website keeps the stats it'd be too hard to track. Compared to before Gana was here do we now concede more chances through the middle? Are those chances a lot more clear cut? 

I also don’t think we play with a worse tempo.  If anything we play with a much faster tempo this year then we have for a good few years. 

This year compared to the previous two we do at times in the counter thanks to the wingers, but we still struggle in the build up when it goes to Gana, he often holds the ball too long and goes sideways. His off ball is terrible as he doesn't help make space with little runs. 

I do agree Gana isn’t the best attacking player we have, but he’s not the worst either. 

Who's worse? 

Lets take the last match. He set up a chance that was missed. He also was an important factor in one of our goals. That’s a good return for a player that is primarily a break up midfielder. 

One game. I didn't see the first half for the chance, but the build up for the second there was little else he could have done with the ball. Had another player done that pass it'd not even be mentioned. 

Yes, it’s not often enough. But don’t we say the same about players who’s job it is to create? Do we berate Richarlison, because he doesn’t make enough interceptions? Do we think Gomes is the second worst player in Evertons history, because he keeps giving the ball away in our last third?

Of course we don’t, because we understand that they do their job well. Just as Gana does exactly what he is meant to be doing. This is why managers pick him, teammates rate him, and generally fans appreciate him.

Alladyce and Silva both want him replaced. Only manager that chose him was Koeman and that was based purely on Walsh and his stats. 

 

[Palfy]

33 minutes ago, nogs said:

 

 

 

Look, it's all about opinions and you're entitled to your own. But in my opinion, that's absolute bollocks fella. To lay the blame on Gana for Schneiderlin looking like he couldn't be arsed and putting in some of the most downright pathetic performances I've seen in an Everton shirt... Its just downright unfair if you ask me. And Gomes, how is he being dragged down exactly? He looked knackered over Christmas, played pretty well against Bournemouth I thought, but not as well as Gana who did a lot of his running for him. But please, I'm not having having that Schneiderlin's woeful attitude is anyone else's fault 

Schniederlin's attitude was wrong he threw the towel in during a game in front of the fans that's not acceptable, I can understand his frustration of playing in a team with a partner that he cannot strike up a relationship with but to show his frustration in the way he did your right is woeful, but let's remember he didn't come here with that attitude and he didn't start with that attitude, people on here were singing his praises so what do you believe happened for him to go downhill the way he did.

Gomes is having to do Gana's job in my opinion that's why he's looking knackered he's been run ragged trying to cover his and Gana's position, I wouldn't know where to look because I don't look at stats but it wouldn't surprise me to see that Gomes covered as much or more ground than Gana against Bournemouth, also your the first person who I've seen say Gana played well but we all see things differently, I personally thought he was our worse player and a few of papers gave him scores out of 10 to reflect that the echo gave him the lowest 5/10 and no one else scored the same or less he was the lowest on his own.

[StevO]

On 16/01/2019 at 22:01, MikeO said:

That's just plain absurd, I speak for myself. Romey and Matt (most obvious example) disagree all the time.

I really resent the post because it's patently untrue and I wouldn't have expected such a daft response from an otherwise sensible contributor. Funniest part is suggesting that Mark goes with the flow, try telling him that.

Very disappointing mate and you've lost a lot of respect from me for it.

No one every agrees with Mark, probably should be Mark never agrees with anyone. 

 

Im just about 16 hours late. 

[rubecula]

tsk tsk  settle down if you can guys,  we all disagree at one time or another,  insults do not help in the long run,  even if they feel good at the time.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

11 hours ago, pete0 said:

What evidence do you have that he isn'ttt? 

Do we give away more chances through the middle since he joined the club? 

Do we play with a worse tempo going forward? 

1. I have not made any accusations so I don’t need any evidence because I have nothing to back up, and it’s like me asking do you  have any evidence that Elvia isn’t alive and living on the moon?

2. No

3. No

 

 

 

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/latest-idrissa-gueye-everton-manager-15695211

[pete0]

14 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

1. I have not made any accusations so I don’t need any evidence because I have nothing to back up, and it’s like me asking do you  have any evidence that Elvia isn’t alive and living on the moon?

2. No

3. No

 

 

 

 

So I need evidence because I have an opinion but you don't need evidence for your opinion because I stated my opinion first. Okay then... 

[Chach]

You guys shouldn't play so rough, someones gonna start crying

[Shukes]

8 hours ago, pete0 said:

 

No PeteO we don’t concede more than chances and no the ones that we do, aren’t any clearer. I still don’t know where you get  this from.

Your second point I can’t argue as it’s just the way you see it and your opinion. I see Gana taking the ball of defence and moving it forward either to a forward player or sideways to a midfield teammate. You get taught to play as well as soon as you leave the under 10s. They teach you not to fear playing the backwards. Before that, children just simply kick the ball towards the goal.

Third point.

Pickford, Zouma, Keane, Coleman, Kenny, Mina, Beni and Davies. I actually think the only better players at attack are the actual attacking players.

Fourth. Well it’s not one game, I regularly make points in the match thread saying you lot will go quiet about it..... and you always do. MikeO also put stats up showing you the forward passes. He also put a minute breakdown of a match showing when he helped set up attacking play. Then the recent stats showing that he is one of our most involved players in attacking play..... not TT opinion, but cold hard stats.

Allardyce praises him up. Your right Koeman wanted him. Silva wanted to give Morgan a chance and did, and has since, switched back to Gana and make more comments on Ganas importance to the team than any other player. There is no way he wants to get rid of him.... that’s just ridiculous.

This is my point PereO, your not arguing your opinion, your trying to make up facts that aren’t actually there. I do tho k you believe they are facts..... but it’s more you have talked yourself into them being facts, then them actually being facts.

[Shukes]

50 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/latest-idrissa-gueye-everton-manager-15695211

There you go... evidence

[nogs]

8 hours ago, Palfy said:

Gomes is having to do Gana's job in my opinion that's why he's looking knackered he's been run ragged trying to cover his and Gana's position, I wouldn't know where to look because I don't look at stats but it wouldn't surprise me to see that Gomes covered as much or more ground than Gana against Bournemouth, also your the first person who I've seen say Gana played well but we all see things differently, I personally thought he was our worse player and a few of papers gave him scores out of 10 to reflect that the echo gave him the lowest 5/10 and no one else scored the same or less he was the lowest on his own.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/interception

Gana's 'job' is more than anything to break up attacking play and shield the defence. So no, I don't agree that Gomes has to do his job. And as for Schneiderlin, part of the problem was that he actually wanted to play deeper than Gana a lot of the time, but was nowhere near as good at the defensive side and exposed us to all sorts of trouble at the back. 

As for Gana's performance v Bournemouth - we were woeful first 30 minutes and they looked by far the most threatening side. I remember 3 maybe 4 important tackles and interceptions Gana made in and around our final third when we could have been deep in the shit. That's his value to the team. 

[pete0]

42 minutes ago, Shukes said:

No PeteO we don’t concede more than chances and no the ones that we do, aren’t any clearer. I still don’t know where you get  this from.

I just don't see how you can think that. We get ripped open every week, bar the Palace game I can't think of a single match Gana played this season were there hasn't been an opening in midfield gifted. Before he was here it was a rarity for that much space to be exposed. 

Your second point I can’t argue as it’s just the way you see it and your opinion. I see Gana taking the ball of defence and moving it forward either to a forward player or sideways to a midfield teammate. You get taught to play as well as soon as you leave the under 10s. They teach you not to fear playing the backwards. Before that, children just simply kick the ball towards the goal.

Palfy has already covered this with coaching 101. Even Alladyce said the basics is you look forward and go from there. Gana doesn't and too often makes the wrong decision and the quality of passing is absolutely shocking. No central midfielder is as bad in the league and the only player at the club worse is Niasse. 

Third point.

Pickford, Zouma, Keane, Coleman, Kenny, Mina, Beni and Davies. I actually think the only better players at attack are the actual attacking players.

I there was an opportunity in the box you'd pick Gana over them to take it? His shooting is woeful, Davie Weir is the only player I can think of as poor at shooting with his feet. Attacking play wise I explained with my post about him struggling just to pass the ball to Coleman. 

Fourth. Well it’s not one game, I regularly make points in the match thread saying you lot will go quiet about it..... and you always do. MikeO also put stats up showing you the forward passes. He also put a minute breakdown of a match showing when he helped set up attacking play. Then the recent stats showing that he is one of our most involved players in attacking play..... not TT opinion, but cold hard stats.

You point out one pass out of the 70 he makes a game. As I've already said Crouch scored one of the best goals in the league, doesn't make him a great finisher when you look at the quality of the rest of them. 

The passing maps on the OS prove otherwise regarding his forward passing. He's a crab. 

Most involved in the attacks? He's had a touch of the ball, he's not helping it get forward, and if anything thanks to his poor quality in his passing and movement he makes it harder for the next person to make something happen. 

 

42 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Allardyce praises him up. Your right Koeman wanted him. Silva wanted to give Morgan a chance and did, and has since, switched back to Gana and make more comments on Ganas importance to the team than any other player. There is no way he wants to get rid of him.... that’s just ridiculous.

Schneiderlin given a chance? He's had 250 minutes, and I'd assume it's none football related reasons why he's not got more. We'll see if Gana is starting next year. I'd be very surprised if he is. 

This is my point PereO, your not arguing your opinion, your trying to make up facts that aren’t actually there. I do tho k you believe they are facts..... but it’s more you have talked yourself into them being facts, then them actually being facts.

What facts have I made up? It's only since Gana started playing for us that we have been exposed so often and so easily in central midfield. It happens, it's factual, go over the past 20 years worth of games and you'll not find the moans similar and as frequent about the midfield being wide open thanks to a single player.  

 

[Hafnia]

Schneiderlein is gutless, mercenary, doesn't give a shit about the team... I couldn't give a shit how good he could look when the temperature is perfect and he's feeling happy and the stars are aligned..... players like him belong in a special group along the likes of Winston bogard, Mario ballotelli etc.  Fuckin disgrace and to even debate his inclusion with gana is an insult to anyone who has ever worn our shirt with a modicum of pride.

 

Our midfield getting cut through is all synonymous with Gana??? What a load of shite.  I've witnessed li tie, linderoth, gemmill,  penbridge, nyarko, alexanderson drag us to places I've never thought possible as an Everton fan....

Ever seen a PSG manager of a multi mill8on pound mega talented side signing any of those beauties for in excess of £25m at the age of 29???  

[Shukes]

3 hours ago, pete0 said:

 

 

[rubecula]

12 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Schneiderlein is gutless, mercenary, doesn't give a shit about the team... I couldn't give a shit how good he could look when the temperature is perfect and he's feeling happy and the stars are aligned..... players like him belong in a special group along the likes of Winston bogard, Mario ballotelli etc.  Fuckin disgrace and to even debate his inclusion with gana is an insult to anyone who has ever worn our shirt with a modicum of pride.

 

Our midfield getting cut through is all synonymous with Gana??? What a load of shite.  I've witnessed li tie, linderoth, gemmill,  penbridge, nyarko, alexanderson drag us to places I've never thought possible as an Everton fan....

Ever seen a PSG manager of a multi mill8on pound mega talented side signing any of those beauties for in excess of £25m at the age of 29???  

well said that man

 

[Shukes]

PeteO. Again none of it is fact. Absolutely none of it.

I say the first point because I don’t see us getting ripped apart through the middle every match he plays. I see him stopping virtually everything.  I do t see all these chances through the middle. I agree we are weak in midfield and need to improve/upgrade.

Your point about football 101 is a fans view. Any football coach will explain to you that just looking forward and playing the ball forward, is ameteur at best. It’s a youth football thing. A comfortable footballer can and will confident in his ability to play the ball in either direction. Play the way your facing is junior football and we should be way ahead of that type. The fact that Sam alardyce advocates your style says it all. One of the most defensive managers there is.

PeteO I do respect your opinions and I enjoy discussing it with you. You never get irate or take my jibes personally and that’s a virtue. 

But fuck me your a stubborn one haha.

[Bailey]

29 minutes ago, Shukes said:

PeteO. Again none of it is fact. Absolutely none of it.

I say the first point because I don’t see us getting ripped apart through the middle every match he plays. I see him stopping virtually everything.  I do t see all these chances through the middle. I agree we are weak in midfield and need to improve/upgrade.

I disagree, I think we are weak through the middle but Im not suggesting that is all down to Gana. It doesnt matter who we play in those two holding roles as Siggy is so advanced that the two holding will become overwhelmed, especially if they need to cover the full backs.

I dont think there can really be any doubt that Gana and Gomes are the best combination in midfield.

[StevO]

43 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I disagree, I think we are weak through the middle but Im not suggesting that is all down to Gana. It doesnt matter who we play in those two holding roles as Siggy is so advanced that the two holding will become overwhelmed, especially if they need to cover the full backs.

I dont think there can really be any doubt that Gana and Gomes are the best combination in midfield.

The way we play will have a lot to do with us being weaker in the middle. We used to sit back, which will naturally have us tighter in the middle. We also had Barry and McCarthy in there who were both holding, not bombing forward, that will make us stronger in there. 

We now try to play a bit more on the front foot, higher up the pitch, with players pressing high. This will pull our players out of position, so there has to be a weakness somewhere. If Gana goes pressing high up and they get past him Gomes isn’t the kind of player to break up play in that situation. 

Just my thoughts anyway.