Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I disagree, I think we are weak through the middle but Im not suggesting that is all down to Gana. It doesnt matter who we play in those two holding roles as Siggy is so advanced that the two holding will become overwhelmed, especially if they need to cover the full backs.

I dont think there can really be any doubt that Gana and Gomes are the best combination in midfield.

I do think we’re weak Bailey. I just don’t think we get ‘Ripped apart’ regularly. And as yourself, I do t think that when we concede a chance through the middle, that’s its down solely to Gana.

I think the tactics we play ( high press ) leaves us open to counter attacking football. We have a choice whether to keep employing this tactic, or resort to a more solid defensive unit. At the moment, I prefer the high press as o think we are still in a transition period and can make it work.

[nyblue23]

16 hours ago, pete0 said:

Alladyce and Silva both want him replaced. Only manager that chose him was Koeman and that was based purely on Walsh and his stats. 

6 hours ago, pete0 said:

What facts have I made up?

 

Well, there’s one for starters: “Asked if Everton would be prepared to sell Gueye this month, Silva told the ECHO: ‘If you ask me if the club are interested in selling one of the most important players, I will say no.’” - from Dunc’s article above.

[pete0]

2 hours ago, hafnia said:

Schneiderlein is gutless, mercenary, doesn't give a shit about the team

Just because Gana is faster doesn't make him any less of a mercenary. Put it up numerous times the goal were he just let's coutinho waltz past him. Gana isn'tt arsed if we win or lose. 

[pete0]

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

PeteO. Again none of it is fact. Absolutely none of it.

I say the first point because I don’t see us getting ripped apart through the middle every match he plays. I see him stopping virtually everything.  I do t see all these chances through the middle. I agree we are weak in midfield and need to improve/upgrade.

Your point about football 101 is a fans view. Any football coach will explain to you that just looking forward and playing the ball forward, is ameteur at best. It’s a youth football thing. A comfortable footballer can and will confident in his ability to play the ball in either direction. Play the way your facing is junior football and we should be way ahead of that type. The fact that Sam alardyce advocates your style says it all. One of the most defensive managers there is.

PeteO I do respect your opinions and I enjoy discussing it with you. You never get irate or take my jibes personally and that’s a virtue. 

But fuck me your a stubborn one haha.

Cheers for that. Know my tone/english can come across quite poor at times. I blame my school... Although sometimes I'm just a stubborn cunt. First round on me next time you visit the old lady. 

[Palfy]

7 hours ago, nogs said:

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/interception

Gana's 'job' is more than anything to break up attacking play and shield the defence. So no, I don't agree that Gomes has to do his job. And as for Schneiderlin, part of the problem was that he actually wanted to play deeper than Gana a lot of the time, but was nowhere near as good at the defensive side and exposed us to all sorts of trouble at the back. 

As for Gana's performance v Bournemouth - we were woeful first 30 minutes and they looked by far the most threatening side. I remember 3 maybe 4 important tackles and interceptions Gana made in and around our final third when we could have been deep in the shit. That's his value to the team. 

I looked at them stats for interceptions and I've never denied he's not good at that, it's the other stuff he can't do that stops us progressing and I'm disappointed with, I won't go into detail on that I'll just be repeating myself.

When Silva got here he favoured Schniederlin and Davies over Gana but they fucked up and never took their opportunities, Schniederlin needs to go there's no future for him here now even though Silva said differently.

Silva would sell Gana given the chance I still don't think he rates him or sees him as his type of player he plays him because of lack of options that's why I said best of a bad bunch, if we can keep Gomes we will see another midfielder brought in during the Summer window even if it's a loan and if Gana is still here he will be dropped, that is what I think we will see next season.

[Sibdane]

3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I looked at them stats for interceptions and I've never denied he's not good at that, it's the other stuff he can't do that stops us progressing and I'm disappointed with, I won't go into detail on that I'll just be repeating myself.

When Silva got here he favoured Schniederlin and Davies over Gana but they fucked up and never took their opportunities, Schniederlin needs to go there's no future for him here now even though Silva said differently.

Silva would sell Gana given the chance I still don't think he rates him or sees him as his type of player he plays him because of lack of options that's why I said best of a bad bunch, if we can keep Gomes we will see another midfielder brought in during the Summer window even if it's a loan and if Gana is still here he will be dropped, that is what I think we will see next season.

“Asked if Everton would be prepared to sell Gueye this month, Silva told the ECHO: ‘If you ask me if the club are interested in selling one of the most important players, I will say no.’” - from Dunc’s article above.

[Palfy]

To be honest I'm starting to despair at this thread now I said as much as I can say on the subject and I assume most people by now know how I feel and if not I've understated it.

Some have said this is like the Lukaku thread not for me, the Lukaku thread was everyone against one person who pretty much proved after Lukaku's move pretty much most of what he said was true, this is different there are 4 or 5 who don't rate him as most in this forum.

But if he plays shit again Saturday I'll be letting you know so I'll be seeing back here tomorrow more likely than not

[Palfy]

22 minutes ago, sibdane said:

“Asked if Everton would be prepared to sell Gueye this month, Silva told the ECHO: ‘If you ask me if the club are interested in selling one of the most important players, I will say no.’” - from Dunc’s article above.

Doh he's hardly gonna say yes is he, anyway stop responding to me on this thread I'm done with it for a while, I thank you for your cooperation in advance.

[Sibdane]

2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Doh he's hardly gonna say yes is he, anyway stop responding to me on this thread I'm done with it for a while, I thank you for your cooperation in advance.

But saying that Silva "would sell Gana given the chance" is based on absolutely nothing.

[Palfy]

3 minutes ago, sibdane said:

But saying that Silva "would sell Gana given the chance" is based on absolutely nothing.

[Gwlad]

From somewhere on the fence. Sure Marco would say no sale maybe to bump the price nearer to our 40mil (I think) valuation?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

11 hours ago, pete0 said:

So I need evidence because I have an opinion but you don't need evidence for your opinion because I stated my opinion first. Okay then... 

Come on Pete keep up

My opinion is that he is very good at what he does, which is winning the ball, and there are no end of stats that prove this. That’s my evidence .We’ve all seen them several times and his stats are consistent every season 

You have nothing to back your opinion up because it’s simply not true

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

The way we play will have a lot to do with us being weaker in the middle. We used to sit back, which will naturally have us tighter in the middle. We also had Barry and McCarthy in there who were both holding, not bombing forward, that will make us stronger in there. 

We now try to play a bit more on the front foot, higher up the pitch, with players pressing high. This will pull our players out of position, so there has to be a weakness somewhere. If Gana goes pressing high up and they get past him Gomes isn’t the kind of player to break up play in that situation. 

Just my thoughts anyway. 

I dont think Gana presses that high, he is usually ahead of Gomes but its not like he is chasing loads of balls in their half. In fact looking on the EFC website, in the last couple of games Gomes' average defensive action is higher up the pitch that Gana. Also in respect of Gana, from what I remember from looking at his stats from before, the majority of his tackles and interceptions are outside the width of the 18 yard box. 

In my opinion the last place you want to have a weakness is through the middle. In this league with the quality of players in almost every side, you dont want to give any time and space through the middle. Even the likes of Man City or Liverpool who play a different variation of the 3 in midfield, and to my mind more effective 3, dont give space in those areas. We leave a lot of space in midfield because Siggy and the striker press quite high and if the defence dont also squeeze up there is a lot of ground in midfield to cover. Previous managers have suffered from the CBs staying very deep. Silva has them much more organised but there is still a lot of space and when one of them like to hunt the ball and double team attacking players (which isnt always a bad decision btw), then even with someone who is more defensively minded that Gomes, will still have trouble.

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

I do think we’re weak Bailey. I just don’t think we get ‘Ripped apart’ regularly. And as yourself, I do t think that when we concede a chance through the middle, that’s its down solely to Gana.

I think the tactics we play ( high press ) leaves us open to counter attacking football. We have a choice whether to keep employing this tactic, or resort to a more solid defensive unit. At the moment, I prefer the high press as o think we are still in a transition period and can make it work.

I agree and I think in an ideal world Silva would change hiw his midfield plays however I think he doesnt due to Siggy and the realisation that he is the most likely to make something happen through the middle of the park.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

Just because Gana is faster doesn't make him any less of a mercenary. Put it up numerous times the goal were he just let's coutinho waltz past him. Gana isn'ttt arsed if we win or lose. 

Fuck me if he wins the ball back more than any other player in the Premiership just imagine how good he would be if he could be arsed!

 

https://statsbomb.com/2018/11/idrissa-gueye-powers-evertons-surprising-defense/

[Wiggytop]

42 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I dont think Gana presses that high, he is usually ahead of Gomes but its not like he is chasing loads of balls in their half. In fact looking on the EFC website, in the last couple of games Gomes' average defensive action is higher up the pitch that Gana. Also in respect of Gana, from what I remember from looking at his stats from before, the majority of his tackles and interceptions are outside the width of the 18 yard box. 

 

Last Sunday Gana played the deeper role, Gomes was more advanced and had a couple of shots, they were as wayward as many believe Gana is only capable of.

[pete0]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Fuck me if he wins the ball back more than any other player in the Premiership just imagine how good he would be if he could be arsed!

 

https://statsbomb.com/2018/11/idrissa-gueye-powers-evertons-surprising-defense/

Just shows he's an erratic ball magnet. 

[StevO]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

I looked at them stats for interceptions and I've never denied he's not good at that, it's the other stuff he can't do that stops us progressing and I'm disappointed with, I won't go into detail on that I'll just be repeating myself.

When Silva got here he favoured Schniederlin and Davies over Gana but they fucked up and never took their opportunities, Schniederlin needs to go there's no future for him here now even though Silva said differently.

Silva would sell Gana given the chance I still don't think he rates him or sees him as his type of player he plays him because of lack of options that's why I said best of a bad bunch, if we can keep Gomes we will see another midfielder brought in during the Summer window even if it's a loan and if Gana is still here he will be dropped, that is what I think we will see next season.

If he was to replace him it would still be with a player who’s strengths are defensive, or wouldn’t be with a players who’s strengths are getting on the ball and playing quick passes forward. And players who can do both are few and far between now. We can’t afford or attract Toni Kroos to replace him. 

Ther will be a midfielder who’s job is to disrupt the other team, I often don’t think we need that type of player at home. But when your job is the one that’s on the line the manager will always put that safety net in there. 

Players like Kante, Matic, even as far back as Makelele, they don’t do too much going forward. They play the simple passes, often just to the man next to them, because their job is safety. 

I’d love to see a midfield like Keane and Scholes, Viera and Petit, but they don’t happen anymore. Even Barca play Busquets in there, and he’s a horrible player, but he gives the ball to better players, that’s his whole job. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

25 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Just shows he's an erratic ball magnet. 

I will add that to the list of Petisms!

Its right up there with Jags was shit because he didn’t get booked enough and Piennar was shit because he had the easiest job in football 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

I looked at them stats for interceptions and I've never denied he's not good at that, it's the other stuff he can't do that stops us progressing and I'm disappointed with, I won't go into detail on that I'll just be repeating myself.

When Silva got here he favoured Schniederlin and Davies over Gana but they fucked up and never took their opportunities, Schniederlin needs to go there's no future for him here now even though Silva said differently.

Silva would sell Gana given the chance I still don't think he rates him or sees him as his type of player he plays him because of lack of options that's why I said best of a bad bunch, if we can keep Gomes we will see another midfielder brought in during the Summer window even if it's a loan and if Gana is still here he will be dropped, that is what I think we will see next season.

Now that’s reasonable. Nobody has ever made out that Gana is some kind of world beater or that he is the perfect all rounder. If I could swap him for Doucouré I would do it in a heartbeat, but the fact remains Gana is the best we have in that position and to bring in someone like Doucouré is going to cost a huge amount of money, and could we attract them anyway?

There are far more pressing areas that need strengthening such as RB and CF

At least you can admit to the things he does well, even though I don’t think you appreciate them

 

[pete0]

6 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Now that’s reasonable. Nobody has ever made out that Gana is some kind of world beater or that he is the perfect all rounder. If I could swap him for Doucouré I would do it in a heartbeat, but the fact remains Gana is the best we have in that position and to bring in someone like Doucouré is going to cost a huge amount of money, and could we attract them anyway?

There are far more pressing areas that need strengthening such as RB and CF

At least you can admit to the things he does well, even though I don’t think you appreciate them

 

If you'd swap him in a heart beat doesn't that mean you agree he's not good enough. 

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, StevO said:

If he was to replace him it would still be with a player who’s strengths are defensive, or wouldn’t be with a players who’s strengths are getting on the ball and playing quick passes forward. And players who can do both are few and far between now. We can’t afford or attract Toni Kroos to replace him. 

Ther will be a midfielder who’s job is to disrupt the other team, I often don’t think we need that type of player at home. But when your job is the one that’s on the line the manager will always put that safety net in there. 

Players like Kante, Matic, even as far back as Makelele, they don’t do too much going forward. They play the simple passes, often just to the man next to them, because their job is safety. 

I’d love to see a midfield like Keane and Scholes, Viera and Petit, but they don’t happen anymore. Even Barca play Busquets in there, and he’s a horrible player, but he gives the ball to better players, that’s his whole job. 

Ruben Neves ? Do your homework on him you will be impressed, watch him you will be in ore of his ability. We need to act now before the bigger teams in Europe start to take a serious interest and his stock rises and he then becomes out of our league.

[Matt]

https://giphy.com/gifs/groundhog-day-XpXglljvHc60U

[c1982]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Ruben Neves ? Do your homework on him you will be impressed, watch him you will be in ore of his ability. We need to act now before the bigger teams in Europe start to take a serious interest and his stock rises and he then becomes out of our league.

Everyone knows about him already - he’d already been playing at the top in the Chmpions League with Porto before Wolves signed him. He’ll be at Man C, Liverpool or maybe even Real Madrid but until then Mendes will keep him under his man at Wolves.

[StevO]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Ruben Neves ? Do your homework on him you will be impressed, watch him you will be in ore of his ability. We need to act now before the bigger teams in Europe start to take a serious interest and his stock rises and he then becomes out of our league.

Man City are already all over him and Wolves want £100m because they know they have a gem on their hands. He’s already out of our league for me. 

[Matt]

Pete, do you know how the ball got to Lookman for the DCL goal last week?

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, c1982 said:

Everyone knows about him already - he’d already been playing at the top in the Chmpions League with Porto before Wolves signed him. He’ll be at Man C, Liverpool or maybe even Real Madrid but until then Mendes will keep him under his man at Wolves.

Wolves paid 20 million 2 years ago what the fuck was Walsh and Koeman doing paying Villa 7 for Gana and 25 for Schniederlin, and even I was advocating him then, sell the them two and test that waters with a 50-60 million bid, because in my eyes what we've seen so far with our midfield is we ain't going no where fast.

[Bailey]

 

15 hours ago, Wiggytop said:

Last Sunday Gana played the deeper role, Gomes was more advanced and had a couple of shots, they were as wayward as many believe Gana is only capable of.

There average position is almost the same, so much so that you can't see Gomes' number. Their heat map (which I cant post due to size) suggests more activity higher up the pitch than Gana.

I don't know about anyone else, but I felt as though this balance changed slightly after the first 30-35 minutes. I have no evidence to back it up but it was noticeable that when we started creating chances and having more control of the game, it was when Gomes was higher up the pitch and Gana was behind sweeping up. This is where you want Gana IMO, covering the ground ahead of the CBs.

In respect of shooting, yep Gomes has hardly covered himself in glory so far!

 

[Wiggytop]

42 minutes ago, Bailey said:

 

There average position is almost the same, so much so that you can't see Gomes' number. Their heat map (which I cant post due to size) suggests more activity higher up the pitch than Gana.

I don't know about anyone else, but I felt as though this balance changed slightly after the first 30-35 minutes. I have no evidence to back it up but it was noticeable that when we started creating chances and having more control of the game, it was when Gomes was higher up the pitch and Gana was behind sweeping up. This is where you want Gana IMO, covering the ground ahead of the CBs.

In respect of shooting, yep Gomes has hardly covered himself in glory so far!

 

Yes I saw that also, and it seemed to be the turning point where we started to actually play well, taking control of the game.

[Shukes]

54 minutes ago, Bailey said:

 

There average position is almost the same, so much so that you can't see Gomes' number. Their heat map (which I cant post due to size) suggests more activity higher up the pitch than Gana.

I don't know about anyone else, but I felt as though this balance changed slightly after the first 30-35 minutes. I have no evidence to back it up but it was noticeable that when we started creating chances and having more control of the game, it was when Gomes was higher up the pitch and Gana was behind sweeping up. This is where you want Gana IMO, covering the ground ahead of the CBs.

In respect of shooting, yep Gomes has hardly covered himself in glory so far!

 

Yes I thought the same. Something suddenly clicked after the half hour mark. 

We almost want Gana and Gomes vertical.  They do work really well together, almost like the old string training. That’s great that they have this understanding, but we need to find a way to push Gomes further up. He does tend to prefer to pass forward, which inevitably means dropping back to receive the ball.

forward players are going to be passing sideways and backwards much more.... unless we want headless PeteO’s... I mean headless chickens aimlessly playing forward balls.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

 

There average position is almost the same, so much so that you can't see Gomes' number. Their heat map (which I cant post due to size) suggests more activity higher up the pitch than Gana.

I don't know about anyone else, but I felt as though this balance changed slightly after the first 30-35 minutes. I have no evidence to back it up but it was noticeable that when we started creating chances and having more control of the game, it was when Gomes was higher up the pitch and Gana was behind sweeping up. This is where you want Gana IMO, covering the ground ahead of the CBs.

In respect of shooting, yep Gomes has hardly covered himself in glory so far!

 

I think this shows how they dovetail. Without the ball Gana goes forward and presses, Gomes sits (I would hope so we have him in space when we win it back). With the ball Gomes gets involved higher up and Gana drops to cover. 

All makes perfect sense to me.