Dele

[StevO]

20 hours ago, Palfy said:

a player that doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically, 

Very harsh that mate. 

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

Very harsh that mate. 

Not when you read it in the context it was said, some times the truth isn’t very pleasant but that doesn’t mean to say it can’t be said. 

[RuffRob]

Not sure Levy would be overly interested in helping Everton and Dele out at possibly Spurs expense.

However, I really can't see Everton playing Dele enough for the £10m payment to kick in, so i don't see Spurs getting a penny.

I would guess it would be in all parties interest to renegotiate the deal.

What happens if we run down Dele contact this summer, so he effectively becomes a free agent?

Are we then able to sign him as a free agent under a completely new contract and thus be free from paying Spurs anything more at all for Dele?.

 

[StevO]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

Not when you read it in the context it was said, some times the truth isn’t very pleasant but that doesn’t mean to say it can’t be said. 

I don’t see any context that changes it. Whether the deal was good or bad is irrelevant of Dele having what’s required physically or mentally. 
 

I’ll remind everyone again, it may have only been 45 minutes, but against Palace when we needed him he showed exactly what he’s capable of. If, and it’s a big if, we can get him playing like that again then he walks into this team. 

[StevO]

19 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

 

What happens if we run down Dele contact this summer, so he effectively becomes a free agent?

Are we then able to sign him as a free agent under a completely new contract and thus be free from paying Spurs anything more at all for Dele?.

 

The clauses in his contract will have a time limit, likely the end of his contract. Wouldn’t matter when he signs a new one. 

[Palfy]

11 hours ago, StevO said:

I don’t see any context that changes it. Whether the deal was good or bad is irrelevant of Dele having what’s required physically or mentally. 
 

I’ll remind everyone again, it may have only been 45 minutes, but against Palace when we needed him he showed exactly what he’s capable of. If, and it’s a big if, we can get him playing like that again then he walks into this team. 

I said it as a response to Haf who thinks Spurs are responsible for the deal that everyone thought Brands had done a great job in broking, and that Spurs are also responsible for how he is today with his mental health, so on both accounts they owe us because they owe him, that’s never going to happen because they sold us a player warts and all, it’s down to us to make the choice of whether we want him or not, so in context I said Spurs aren’t responsible for selling us a player who doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically, but you choose to cherry pick one section of what I said, you tell me why I’m wrong in saying Spurs are not responsible for selling us a player who doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically, because from where I’m standing that is the reality, if you think that’s harsh mate then I apologise but like I said sometimes things aren’t very pleasant but doesn’t mean they can’t be said. What his 45 minutes against Palace has to do with what Haf and I were debating I don’t know, but that would make a good argument for Spurs to say fuck off we sold you a player who potentially saved you from relegation so you’re getting no financial support from us. When you sign a player you are given their medical records which would include any medication supplied to the player, I would say Spurs and Dele haven’t hidden stuff from us or we would be threatening them with legal action to recover our costs. 

[Cornish Steve]

18 hours ago, RuffRob said:

Not sure Levy would be overly interested in helping Everton and Dele out at possibly Spurs expense.

However, I really can't see Everton playing Dele enough for the £10m payment to kick in, so i don't see Spurs getting a penny.

I would guess it would be in all parties interest to renegotiate the deal.

What happens if we run down Dele contact this summer, so he effectively becomes a free agent?

Are we then able to sign him as a free agent under a completely new contract and thus be free from paying Spurs anything more at all for Dele?.

 

Simply restart the 20-game counter. That would be in everyone's interest.

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Simply restart the 20-game counter. That would be in everyone's interest.

Good idea  

[StevO]

20 hours ago, Palfy said:

I said it as a response to Haf who thinks Spurs are responsible for the deal that everyone thought Brands had done a great job in broking, and that Spurs are also responsible for how he is today with his mental health, so on both accounts they owe us because they owe him, that’s never going to happen because they sold us a player warts and all, it’s down to us to make the choice of whether we want him or not, so in context I said Spurs aren’t responsible for selling us a player who doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically, but you choose to cherry pick one section of what I said, you tell me why I’m wrong in saying Spurs are not responsible for selling us a player who doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically, because from where I’m standing that is the reality, if you think that’s harsh mate then I apologise but like I said sometimes things aren’t very pleasant but doesn’t mean they can’t be said. What his 45 minutes against Palace has to do with what Haf and I were debating I don’t know, but that would make a good argument for Spurs to say fuck off we sold you a player who potentially saved you from relegation so you’re getting no financial support from us. When you sign a player you are given their medical records which would include any medication supplied to the player, I would say Spurs and Dele haven’t hidden stuff from us or we would be threatening them with legal action to recover our costs. 

I’ve no issue with Spurs, I just think it’s harsh to say Dele doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically.
If he doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically that can’t be anything to do with the deal, that’s a direct opinion on the player not the deal. They are two separate things and can’t be context together.

Its not like if it was a better deal it would change Dele. The context of the deal doesn’t change him physically or mentally. If you think it does then fine.

What he did against Palace shows what he can do physically, so is relevant if he’s not got what’s required as he has shown what he can do. It may also be a glimpse into what he can do mentally, but we’ll never know what his mindset was that night. 

[Hafnia]

I don’t think people who are shoving copious amounts of sedatives down their necks are gonna be physically or mentally “up to it”.

its a miracle he was able to actually do what he did vs palace. With a full recovery who knows what he may achieve.

Spurs essentially took a rolls Royce that had served them well, without looking into the reasons why it wasn’t running well they tried to sell it on before anyone realised it was broken. 
 

 

[patto]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

I don’t think people who are shoving copious amounts of sedatives down their necks are gonna be physically or mentally “up to it”.

its a miracle he was able to actually do what he did vs palace. With a full recovery who knows what he may achieve.

Spurs essentially took a rolls Royce that had served them well, without looking into the reasons why it wasn’t running well they tried to sell it on before anyone realised it was broken. 
 

 

Before we signed him it was already known Dele didn’t like to train and he is probably the same now I can’t see him changing now. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I’ve no issue with Spurs, I just think it’s harsh to say Dele doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically.
If he doesn’t have what’s required mentally or physically that can’t be anything to do with the deal, that’s a direct opinion on the player not the deal. They are two separate things and can’t be context together.

Its not like if it was a better deal it would change Dele. The context of the deal doesn’t change him physically or mentally. If you think it does then fine.

What he did against Palace shows what he can do physically, so is relevant if he’s not got what’s required as he has shown what he can do. It may also be a glimpse into what he can do mentally, but we’ll never know what his mindset was that night. 

Exactly it’s nothing to do with the deal how he is, my point being you can’t be happy with the deal Brands made then when it doesn’t work out go cap in hand to Spurs looking for some form  of compensation because it hasn’t worked out and we’ve bought a player who isn’t up to his billing. It’s not like it wasn’t well documented that he had issues, even a Spurs supporter game onto the thread to warn us about his issues. Now whether that is mental issues and physical issues it’s not the fault of Spurs that we bought him. For some reason known only to Everton we decided to buy him because it was a cheap deal and they possibly believed they could change his fortunes around with his mental and physical issues. When Lampard was saying he’s not playing until he applies himself in training by putting the effort in and doing what’s asked of him I call that physically not able to perform as required. Are we really saying his last 4 managers are all wrong in their assessment of him as a player.  Is 45 minutes of football against Palace worth the millions he’s had in wages from the club, I’ll be honest and say not in my book far far from it. 

[Hafnia]

44 minutes ago, patto said:

Before we signed him it was already known Dele didn’t like to train and he is probably the same now I can’t see him changing now. 

I reckon anyone would struggle to be a good trainer having ingested a shed load of sedatives….. you do realise the sleeping tablet issue is long standing? 

[Hafnia]

23 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Exactly it’s nothing to do with the deal how he is, my point being you can’t be happy with the deal Brands made then when it doesn’t work out go cap in hand to Spurs looking for some form  of compensation because it hasn’t worked out and we’ve bought a player who isn’t up to his billing. It’s not like it wasn’t well documented that he had issues, even a Spurs supporter game onto the thread to warn us about his issues. Now whether that is mental issues and physical issues it’s not the fault of Spurs that we bought him. For some reason known only to Everton we decided to buy him because it was a cheap deal and they possibly believed they could change his fortunes around with his mental and physical issues. When Lampard was saying he’s not playing until he applies himself in training by putting the effort in and doing what’s asked of him I call that physically not able to perform as required. Are we really saying his last 4 managers are all wrong in their assessment of him as a player.  Is 45 minutes of football against Palace worth the millions he’s had in wages from the club, I’ll be honest and say not in my book far far from it. 

Tbh palf you were debating whether or not he had mental health issues going back 4 years when a few of us pointed out that he was clearly struggling based on what we could see. 
 

now you are saying it’s well documented that he did have issues.

the fact is this… he has potential world class capabilities, his stats were up there as a player, his performances fell off a cliff with little explanation and spurs binned him and our managers couldn’t utilise him. 
 

he officially placed on record the gratitude he will always have for Everton who clearly did for the player what spurs should have done.  Not roll him out in front of a camera to get castigated by mourinho.  Watch that video back now, it’s actually quite harrowing. 

[Palfy]

49 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Tbh palf you were debating whether or not he had mental health issues going back 4 years when a few of us pointed out that he was clearly struggling based on what we could see. 
 

now you are saying it’s well documented that he did have issues.

I did and the issues were that it could be seen he was burning the candle at both ends, buy hanging around with group of lads that was doing him no favours, staying up to early hours of the morning playing computer games with said friends, and then expecting to go to training and put a good display in, he was told to give up the partying life and concentrate on his football he chose not to, which may well have been down to his own demons, or his own personal preference, he has since spoken recently about his mental health issues, when those issues first started to manifest themselves he hasn’t said, was it 5 years ago or 18 months, or did he have it 7 years ago, but that doesn’t mean Spurs owe us or him for selling him to us and what’s happened subsequently with his health or career.  Like I said they sold us a player warts and all not there fault he hasn’t come good for us. 

[Wall Writer]

We made a deal, we agreed the terms, we should pay up. Besides Levy doesn’t seem like the kind to “renegotiate” terms that are not in his favour. This idea that they owe us something is ridiculous.

Fair enough, in retrospect they could have handled his situation better. But that’s with the benefit of hindsight.

We can all be wise and morally superior with the benefit of hindsight.

 

 

 

[Hafnia]

48 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I did and the issues were that it could be seen he was burning the candle at both ends, buy hanging around with group of lads that was doing him no favours, staying up to early hours of the morning playing computer games with said friends, and then expecting to go to training and put a good display in, he was told to give up the partying life and concentrate on his football he chose not to, which may well have been down to his own demons, or his own personal preference, he has since spoken recently about his mental health issues, when those issues first started to manifest themselves he hasn’t said, was it 5 years ago or 18 months, or did he have it 7 years ago, but that doesn’t mean Spurs owe us or him for selling him to us and what’s happened subsequently with his health or career.  Like I said they sold us a player warts and all not there fault he hasn’t come good for us. 

Self medicating trauma is very often viewed as a person being a party animal.  Very sad cos the person is surrounded by people but couldn’t feel more alone. 
 

If you watch his interview, he wasn’t doing this and expecting to go in to training and play well.  Quite frankly he was there but wasn’t present.  he even said his defence mechanism is to smile.

amazing…. Spurs didn’t scratch beneath the surface to understand what was going on with a player who was setting the world alight, who Harry Kane knew was struggling and tried to help. It took Everton to send him to rehab. Let’s be clear - spurs doctors prescribed him sleeping tablets. They have a duty of care. 
 

 

[Palfy]

39 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Self medicating trauma is very often viewed as a person being a party animal.  Very sad cos the person is surrounded by people but couldn’t feel more alone. 
 

If you watch his interview, he wasn’t doing this and expecting to go in to training and play well.  Quite frankly he was there but wasn’t present.  he even said his defence mechanism is to smile.

amazing…. Spurs didn’t scratch beneath the surface to understand what was going on with a player who was setting the world alight, who Harry Kane knew was struggling and tried to help. It took Everton to send him to rehab. Let’s be clear - spurs doctors prescribed him sleeping tablets. They have a duty of care. 
 

 

So did we sign him to play football or did we sign him to cure is issues, honestly mate no wonder this club is in the dire straits it’s in, we spent millions I believe on player to regularly contribute to our team and not to offer him years of rehab. How do you know that they never showed concern about his wellbeing and wellness, you have know idea when and I why he was prescribed any medication doctors prescribed for him, there could be a multitude of different reasons he was prescribed drugs, and when they prescribed him sleeping tablets you don’t know the circumstances that led to that decision. Dele in his own words said he was struggling to sleep after a consultation with the club doctor he was prescribed one sleeping pill a night for a short period with a warning from his doctor, that it’s one pill a night for sleep only, he then sourced his own pills without the club knowing his reason because he liked how they  worked for him with his sleeping issue, so then started self medicating in the hope that they could help with other issues he was having and started taking more than one each day and become addicted. He accepts full responsibility for his addiction to sleeping pills and his misuse. 

[MikeO]

12 minutes ago, Palfy said:

So did we sign him to play football or did we sign him to cure is issues, honestly mate no wonder this club is in the dire straits it’s in, we spent millions I believe on player to regularly contribute to our team and not to offer him years of rehab. How do you know that they never showed concern about his wellbeing and wellness, you have know idea when and I why he was prescribed any medication doctors prescribed for him, there could be a multitude of different reasons he was prescribed drugs, and when they prescribed him sleeping tablets you don’t know the circumstances that led to that decision. Dele in his own words said he was struggling to sleep after a consultation with the club doctor he was prescribed one sleeping pill a night for a short period with a warning from his doctor, that it’s one pill a night for sleep only, he then sourced his own pills without the club knowing his reason because he liked how they  worked for him with his sleeping issue, so then started self medicating in the hope that they could help with other issues he was having and started taking more than one each day and become addicted. He accepts full responsibility for his addiction to sleeping pills and his misuse. 

Would you be taking the same stance if it'd turned out he had an underlying physical issue?

He had/has mental health and addiction problems, medical stuff equally as valid as a broken leg.

[Wall Writer]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at @Hafnia.

It’s all good finger-pointing, but you can also point the finger at our doctors. Aren’t all players given a medical before signing. Why weren’t these medical problems discovered then.

I don’t see what your argument is?

[Palfy]

Just now, MikeO said:

Would you be taking the same stance if it'd turned out he had an underlying physical issue?

He had/has mental health and addiction problems, medical stuff equally as valid as a broken leg.

He did he has had them from a young age from his up bringing to being sexually abused and selling drugs as a kid who was dangled over a bridge by another gang, these are the reasons in his own words that started his troubles off. You can see a broken leg and treat it, but as he said he hid his mental issues from everyone and never told anyone, to help people with mental health issues they need to admit to themselves that they have an issue and seek help, which he did when he checked himself into rehab for 6 weeks and then went on Neville’s show to tell his story for the first time, now he can start healing and get the support he needs instead of self medicating and hiding his issues from everyone.  What we have to remember as well is that he was good at hiding his problems with mental issues he had a good career at Milton Keynes Dons and two very good years at Spurs, who would have even considered he had problems then but he would tell us he did. The thing is we bought him with these issues and Spurs sold him with these issues, and the reason being because he never faced his problems until a few months ago. Who’s responsible for that Spurs or all the managers he’s worked under since Mourinho, himself or Everton. Do we have a right as supporters to be disappointed that we have signed a player that has cost us millions through being one of the top earners in the club yet has hardly played, through the years I’ve been on this site people have criticised players for being a waste of money for various reasons including always injured, why’s he not playing now I’m assuming it’s an injury well at least that’s what we’ve been told, but we never really have much information divulged about what’s going on with him to be fair. So for me he has been an expensive mistake like many we have bought for what ever reasons over the past 7 years or so. And Delph, Gbamin, Mina were always being called a waste of money because of their injury records so it isn’t one way traffic when I say the same about Alli. 

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

So did we sign him to play football or did we sign him to cure is issues, honestly mate no wonder this club is in the dire straits it’s in, we spent millions I believe on player to regularly contribute to our team and not to offer him years of rehab. How do you know that they never showed concern about his wellbeing and wellness, you have know idea when and I why he was prescribed any medication doctors prescribed for him, there could be a multitude of different reasons he was prescribed drugs, and when they prescribed him sleeping tablets you don’t know the circumstances that led to that decision. Dele in his own words said he was struggling to sleep after a consultation with the club doctor he was prescribed one sleeping pill a night for a short period with a warning from his doctor, that it’s one pill a night for sleep only, he then sourced his own pills without the club knowing his reason because he liked how they  worked for him with his sleeping issue, so then started self medicating in the hope that they could help with other issues he was having and started taking more than one each day and become addicted. He accepts full responsibility for his addiction to sleeping pills and his misuse. 

Based on spurs knowing he was on sleeping tablets and how his performance levels had dropped off - are you saying they never had an obligation to him? 
 

3 hours ago, Wall Writer said:

I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at @Hafnia.

It’s all good finger-pointing, but you can also point the finger at our doctors. Aren’t all players given a medical before signing. Why weren’t these medical problems discovered then.

I don’t see what your argument is?

What part of the medical is going to flag up sleeping tablets? 

[Palfy]

22 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Based on spurs knowing he was on sleeping tablets and how his performance levels had dropped off - are you saying they never had an obligation to him? 
 

What part of the medical is going to flag up sleeping tablets? 

Spurs would have made his medical history known to Everton’s doctors whilst he was with them. 

[Wall Writer]

11 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Based on spurs knowing he was on sleeping tablets and how his performance levels had dropped off - are you saying they never had an obligation to him? 
 

What part of the medical is going to flag up sleeping tablets? 

That’s my point. You can just as easy argue that our doctors were incompetent in not uncovering potential mental and physical complications, including any addictions or long term medication. At the end of the day though it’s just scapegoating.

But, as I mentioned, I don’t know what you are arguing for here.

Are you saying Spurs owe us or Dele something? Are you implying we’ve been somehow ripped off?

 

 

 

[Palfy]

No I’m not saying they didn’t have an obligation to him, I’m saying how do we know they didn’t for fill their obligation to him, if he is misleading them by not divulging to them of his issues and medicating himself with drugs sourced by himself, what else in reality can they do to help him if he keeps quiet about his issues and what he’s doing to mask them. 

[StevO]

Not sure if everyone is aware of this, but football clubs give out sleeping pills like cola bottles. 
Away trip with travel time, sleeping pill for the journey.
After a night game, sleeping pill. 
Early kick off tomorrow, sleeping pill. 
Not had enough rest last night, sleeping pill for the afternoon nap. 

It’s not like the doctor has to sign a prescription and the player takes it to the local pharmacy and picks up the order. The doctor hands the drugs over there and then, ready to go. They have stock of this stuff. 
 

They give them out that often that sleeping pills on a players medical history won’t raise any red flags, they are all on them.  

Using them to stay awake, fight the sleep and get high, that’s a problem.

This was one of Dele’s points in the Neville interview, that they are so common in the game and so easy to get hold of that he believes there are many more players with an addiction to them. 

[Bailey]

Regardless of the cause Dele hadn't been at a decent level for Spurs for a long time before we signed him. You didn't need to know he was on tablets to know that. 

I think Lampard thought he could put an arm around him and make things better and the club probably saw the deal as a risk worth taking. 

I imagine he wasn't fully scouted at all and he only came on our radar because of signing Lampard at the last second. 

I don't expect him to play for us again and if he does, I don't expect him to really contribute too much. If he does its a bonus but I suspect that ship has long sailed.

[Hafnia]

18 hours ago, Bailey said:

Regardless of the cause Dele hadn't been at a decent level for Spurs for a long time before we signed him. You didn't need to know he was on tablets to know that. 

I think Lampard thought he could put an arm around him and make things better and the club probably saw the deal as a risk worth taking. 

I imagine he wasn't fully scouted at all and he only came on our radar because of signing Lampard at the last second. 

I don't expect him to play for us again and if he does, I don't expect him to really contribute too much. If he does it’s a bonus but I suspect that ship has long sailed.

 You reckon his sleeping tablet issue was just a recent thing?!

Many people get on with their lives before finding their crutch and once it is discovered, their dependency on it is far more than just “I like to get to sleep”.   Benzodiazepines are highly addictive in isolation but for someone who has deep rooted issues it offers an anti anxiety effect. 
 

Far too many people looking at Dele Alli like he’s some sort of prize racehorse who has gone lame and the owners are discussing whether it’s a necessary expense or is he best off as dog food. A bit embarrassing really. 
 

I was drinking way too much years before people even thought I may have a problem. I wasn’t drinking coz I loved getting pissed, I was drinking cos I hated the anxiety I had when I wasn’t drinking. 
 

Dele will now likely have tools to deal with his struggles, it won’t fix him, but it will help him not seek the temporary fix of self medication.   I do believe he will make a comeback fwiw

[Bailey]

On 27/09/2023 at 16:19, Hafnia said:

 You reckon his sleeping tablet issue was just a recent thing?!

Many people get on with their lives before finding their crutch and once it is discovered, their dependency on it is far more than just “I like to get to sleep”.   Benzodiazepines are highly addictive in isolation but for someone who has deep rooted issues it offers an anti anxiety effect. 
 

Far too many people looking at Dele Alli like he’s some sort of prize racehorse who has gone lame and the owners are discussing whether it’s a necessary expense or is he best off as dog food. A bit embarrassing really. 
 

I was drinking way too much years before people even thought I may have a problem. I wasn’t drinking coz I loved getting pissed, I was drinking cos I hated the anxiety I had when I wasn’t drinking. 
 

Dele will now likely have tools to deal with his struggles, it won’t fix him, but it will help him not seek the temporary fix of self medication.   I do believe he will make a comeback fwiw

No and I have never said it was. I am not sure how you read that from my post.

 

[Shukes]

Please come back.