Salomón Rondón

[Hafnia]

8 minutes ago, Matt said:

Not really ridiculous. Just because there's a valid excuse doesn't excuse the fact he's been shit and worse than expected.

I still think he'll be capable backup, but he is not there yet and by the time he's halfway up to speed, DCL should be fit again. Hopefully. 

It is ridiculous because he is not anywhere near fit.  Never have we been in a position where we have played a player lacking in so much fitness in a physically demanding role. 

[Matt]

7 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

It is ridiculous because he is not anywhere near fit.  Never have we been in a position where we have played a player lacking in so much fitness in a physically demanding role. 

No, it's not. As I said, he has a valid excuse but his performances have been awful. I'm all for defending his lack of game time, I was saying the same to my dad the other day. But his performances have been that bad that even the lowest of expectations have not been met for some. For me, he's performing as expected. 

[Bill]

25 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

It is ridiculous because he is not anywhere near fit.  Never have we been in a position where we have played a player lacking in so much fitness in a physically demanding role. 

There's been a lot of players who are out of contract and miss several months without playing matches but, some go to their nearest club and train with other teams just to keep themselves Fit.  Even a couple of visits to the local gym would keep him a lot fitter.

I think he's been a couch potato for five months and done absolutely nothing to keep himself fit.

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I don't think anyone is expecting Rondon to come in and begin firing from game one.

I also don't think anyone is expecting him to be able to give his all for 90 minutes.

I do think it is reasonable to have expected more from him so far, because he has offered very little at all.

I also think it's reasonable for his manager to take him off (half-time?) when he's knackered.

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, Bill said:

There's been a lot of players who are out of contract and miss several months without playing matches but, some go to their nearest club and train with other teams just to keep themselves Fit.  Even a couple of visits to the local gym would keep him a lot fitter.

I think he's been a couch potato for five months and done absolutely nothing to keep himself fit.

His fitness levels will be far higher than someone who goes the gym a few times - trust me.  He will be fit, but he's not football fit 

He's a naturally big fella, and being that size it takes longer to get fitter.  

4 hours ago, Matt said:

No, it's not. As I said, he has a valid excuse but his performances have been awful. I'm all for defending his lack of game time, I was saying the same to my dad the other day. But his performances have been that bad that even the lowest of expectations have not been met for some. For me, he's performing as expected. 

His performances have reeked of someone who isn't fit. 

3 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I also think it's reasonable for his manager to take him off (half-time?) when he's knackered.

And replaced by who?  Are you suggesting we play with no striker or going for a kid who is equally unfit after 4 months out who will no doubt get written off like Rondon has???

[Palfy]

We can all criticise someone who isn’t fit or maybe not good enough who is covering for injured players, yet still giving his best and not looking good enough because he’s no where near match fit, if there’s no viable option you have to suck it up and get on with it, hardly the players fault we are in the position we are.

[Bill]

It is if he's not kept himself to a decent level of fitness.

[Bailey]

23 hours ago, Hafnia said:

You clearly have no idea how detrained he is.  Several weeks of not playing is tough enough ..... 4 months he's had off.

Add to that he is being expected to be on the pitch for at least 70 minutes.  

He will be told how hard to push on the basis of injury risk.

We have no other striker options, if we did we would see them. 

You clearly have no idea either. He may be miles off or he may be close to as good as he is going to get. Like you, I suspect he has a long way to go but I don't know that and neither do you.

Before he signed, I said it all depends on the type of player he is now. Not only has he not had much football since May but he has also been playing in Russia and China who are far weaker leagues where he would have had a relatively easy time of it. Add in that he is a couple of years older and this might just be where he is now? Time will tell, I am certainly not writing him off, just observing where he is at the moment.

We saw from James that not playing for a long time doesn't mean you come in rusty. You can even look at the returns of Seamus and Gomes from long injuries. They came back fit, if not match fit. At the moment, Rondon looks neither.

[Hafnia]

4 hours ago, Bailey said:

You clearly have no idea either. He may be miles off or he may be close to as good as he is going to get. Like you, I suspect he has a long way to go but I don't know that and neither do you.

Before he signed, I said it all depends on the type of player he is now. Not only has he not had much football since May but he has also been playing in Russia and China who are far weaker leagues where he would have had a relatively easy time of it. Add in that he is a couple of years older and this might just be where he is now? Time will tell, I am certainly not writing him off, just observing where he is at the moment.

We saw from James that not playing for a long time doesn't mean you come in rusty. You can even look at the returns of Seamus and Gomes from long injuries. They came back fit, if not match fit. At the moment, Rondon looks neither.

He's 32 not 42, he's been in china playing slower paced football..... Not lying down hitting on big pipes in opium dens. 

I made the point quite clearly that he is a robust type footballer that impacts games by his athleticism..... So I'm not sure why you would compare his comparative level of fitness/impact with a player who can and does walk through matches looking to play through balls. 

How difficult is it to make the point that he is a player who needs to be at a prime physical condition to be at his best and the only way he is gonna get there is by playing..... And that unfortunately right now he can't do that with the under 23s. 

We are seeing with Godfrey that certain types of players need to be physically at it.  He is one of them. 

[Bill]

Haf, You seem to think that its matches he needs to get Match fit, He signed on 31st august he's had 28 days with the best fitness coaches and the best trainers at the Club, there's no doubt that he's been playing training matches and five a side games. He's had 28 days of the best facilities anybody could wish for plus he's already had 3 premier games but he's still gasping for breadth after half an hour.

Personally I don't think he will ever get any better, I would rather somebody else played instead of him, we are basically taking to the field a weakened team.

[RuffRob]

Its feasible he's just not yet fit enough for the Premier league  (given the length of time he has been away from training) and also feasible that his best days are long behind him (given his age and time away from the bigger leagues). But less than a month in to his Everton career its a bit early to be down on him off as being a waste of time and effort or a poor signing!! I pretty sure Benitez intention wasn't for him to leading the line through most of September. 

If in another months time, there looks to be no improvement I can then maybe understand the questions being asked, but bit early yet given the circumstances. 

[Shukes]

Massive difference to fitness and match fitness.

He looks awful at the moment, but I’m giving him time as I recognise where he has been playing. I’ll give him a couple more months then make a judgement.

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

Haf, You seem to think that its matches he needs to get Match fit, He signed on 31st august he's had 28 days with the best fitness coaches and the best trainers at the Club, there's no doubt that he's been playing training matches and five a side games. He's had 28 days of the best facilities anybody could wish for plus he's already had 3 premier games but he's still gasping for breadth after half an hour.

Personally I don't think he will ever get any better, I would rather somebody else played instead of him, we are basically taking to the field a weakened team.

Bill .....  I was running sub 35 minute 10k on a treadmill after an hour's heavy weight session when I was playing footy.

I did this all year round....  Start of the season I would be blowing out of my arse because I hadnt played in a couple of months and that's ale House footy. 

Do you think they run the arses off them in training?  They don't.   After the game the first session is a light one, stretch out and prevent any injuries, work on tactics and shape for next match.  They play tight confined one and two touch games to work on sharpness.  All that stuff you are talking about is pre season. He hasn't had one. 

He will be fit but give him a chance.  If DCL was fit he would be playing in under 23 or behind closed door games to get up to speed. 

 

[Bill]

I'd rather he wasn't playing at all, he's done fook all in any of the games he's played, and I don't think he will get any better.  I will hold my hands up if in a months time and heap praise on him if he keeps DCL on the bench.

Not much chance of that.

[RuffRob]

33 minutes ago, Bill said:

I'd rather he wasn't playing at all,

and who would you have stuck up front for the last three or four games? you have not really offered much of an argument for alternative solutions. 

[Romey 1878]

59 minutes ago, RPG said:

Basically, we are stuffed until either DCL returns or Rondon/Simms are deemed match fit or we go shopping in January.

Have people erased Dobbin coming on against Norwich from their minds? He's a striker.

I'm not saying start him or anything (or Simms for that matter), I've already said Rondon is a better option than a young lad if we're playing with a striker, but it's tickling me that Dobbin has been completely forgotten about.

I know Simms isn't fit but I think it's telling that Dobbin got his debut first and I think it probably shows he's thought to be the better prospect.

[Hafnia]

55 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Have people erased Dobbin coming on against Norwich from their minds? He's a striker.

I'm not saying start him or anything (or Simms for that matter), I've already said Rondon is a better option than a young lad if we're playing with a striker, but it's tickling me that Dobbin has been completely forgotten about.

I know Simms isn't fit but I think it's telling that Dobbin got his debut first and I think it probably shows he's thought to be the better prospect.

The way our fans tend to immediately write off a player I don't mind the likes of Dobbin getting the last 10 minutes.

 

 

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

The way our fans tend to immediately write off a player I don't mind the likes of Dobbin getting the last 10 minutes.

 

 

Who's writing who off? 

[Romey 1878]

47 minutes ago, RPG said:

Dobbin came on at home v Norwich with the game already won. Perfect time to introduce him for a few minutes. And he did ok too. If Simms had come on when still not quite 100% and injured himself we would all, quite rightly, be livid.

Old Trafford, away and probably chasing the game is a totally different experience for a young player. Not saying Dobbin (or Simms) wouldn't fancy it but I can see why Rafa still prefers an unfit (and knackered after 60 mins) Rondon.

If we are 0-2 up with 5 minutes to go then I'd love to see Dobbin (or Simms if he is now 100%) get a run out at OT.

 

I'm not arguing that either one should be playing or anything. I'm just a bit baffled why people are saying it's Rondon or Simms, when Dobbin is the one that came on but seems to be getting completely ignored in the entire conversation.

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

Who's writing who off? 

Really? You not seen the Andros Townsend thread?  It kinda resembled this thread till he proved he was a smart signing.

Rondon is getting trashed despite not being anywhere near fit - which is the reason why he is poor quite clearly. 

[Bailey]

19 hours ago, Hafnia said:

He's 32 not 42, he's been in china playing slower paced football..... Not lying down hitting on big pipes in opium dens. 

I made the point quite clearly that he is a robust type footballer that impacts games by his athleticism..... So I'm not sure why you would compare his comparative level of fitness/impact with a player who can and does walk through matches looking to play through balls. 

How difficult is it to make the point that he is a player who needs to be at a prime physical condition to be at his best and the only way he is gonna get there is by playing..... And that unfortunately right now he can't do that with the under 23s. 

We are seeing with Godfrey that certain types of players need to be physically at it.  He is one of them. 

Lets face it 32 is old for a Premier League striker who in your own words "impacts games by his athleticism". Those attributes are even harder to bring back to the necessary level when you have been having an easy time of it for a couple of years.

The comparison is important. James came in and looked fit enough for 60 minutes of decent enough football, where at the beginning of the season, he was actually running around. Rondon has yet to show even that level of fitness IMO. It is a very simple comparison.

It isn't difficult at all, I have said that I agree with you that he needs time. Not for the first time, you are making up arguments. He does need to play and it will take him time, but he is still some way off that IMO. If anything, it may end up being better for him in the long-term by having these matches early on as it might sharpen him up a bit quicker that would otherwise be the case.

I don't understand why it isn't an entirely reasonable point to make that he doesn't look fit so far, that his performances haven't been good enough and that he may or may not get back to the level he needs to be in the future.

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Lets face it 32 is old for a Premier League striker who in your own words "impacts games by his athleticism". Those attributes are even harder to bring back to the necessary level when you have been having an easy time of it for a couple of years.

The comparison is important. James came in and looked fit enough for 60 minutes of decent enough football, where at the beginning of the season, he was actually running around. Rondon has yet to show even that level of fitness IMO. It is a very simple comparison.

It isn't difficult at all, I have said that I agree with you that he needs time. Not for the first time, you are making up arguments. He does need to play and it will take him time, but he is still some way off that IMO. If anything, it may end up being better for him in the long-term by having these matches early on as it might sharpen him up a bit quicker that would otherwise be the case.

I don't understand why it isn't an entirely reasonable point to make that he doesn't look fit so far, that his performances haven't been good enough and that he may or may not get back to the level he needs to be in the future.

32 old for a striker based on athleticism? Bloody Nora bailey.  Take a look at the Andros thread, your form for calling players out as being spent forces isn't looking good.

Rondon is a very similar shape and style of athlete to Distin.  

James didn't do much defensive work at all through all his games, towards the end he wasn't even doing offensive work.  The bloke had a wand of a left foot and that's how he impacted games. 

I will be one of the first to call out players as being shit when they have had a chance to prove so ..... It's ridiculous the crap this bloke is getting.  Yes he has looked way off it ..... But till there isnt any reason to discount it as being the 4 months he's had away then let's cool the shit he's getting. 

[Matt]

3 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Really? You not seen the Andros Townsend thread?  It kinda resembled this thread till he proved he was a smart signing.

Rondon is getting trashed despite not being anywhere near fit - which is the reason why he is poor quite clearly. 

It's probably/hopefully the reason. Impossible to say with 100% certainty. If you argue that, I'd like the lottery numbers please.  

And no, too much going on in real life to go back through all that backlog  But people complaining about shit performances (valid excuse or not does not change the fact the performance was shit) is understandable.

The forum is reactionary by its very nature, and we can only go on what we see. Some have a very short patience threshold, some are too patient. I've not seen anyone say either Townsend or Rondon are never going to be any good and writing them off (please dont do thr searching for quotes, it's immaterial anyway). I've seen plenty of frustrated posts based on what people have seen on top a 180 on the clubs transfer culture. 

[Bailey]

22 hours ago, Hafnia said:

32 old for a striker based on athleticism? Bloody Nora bailey.  Take a look at the Andros thread, your form for calling players out as being spent forces isn't looking good.

Rondon is a very similar shape and style of athlete to Distin.  

James didn't do much defensive work at all through all his games, towards the end he wasn't even doing offensive work.  The bloke had a wand of a left foot and that's how he impacted games. 

I will be one of the first to call out players as being shit when they have had a chance to prove so ..... It's ridiculous the crap this bloke is getting.  Yes he has looked way off it ..... But till there isnt any reason to discount it as being the 4 months he's had away then let's cool the shit he's getting. 

So you don't think 32 is getting towards the end of a premier league footballers career?

I don't get your comparison with Townsend either, because he clearly isn't as quick as he used to be.

Rondon is absolutely nothing like Distin. Distin was one of the fittest athletes I have seen at Goodison. He was always in the gym. If Distin had been out like Rondon has, he would be in much better shape.

FWIW I don't agree about your comments with Rondon and his athleticism. Sure he is a strong bloke but it is his attitude to the game that sets him apart and makes him a better player than his actual talent. My biggest concern is that we aren't even seeing any of that gamesmanship from him yet. He is getting beaten for pace, strength and sharpness of mind. I think he is a better player than we have seen so far, at least based on his Newcastle days. I don't know what he has been doing in China and Russia.

[Hafnia]

32 minutes ago, Bailey said:

So you don't think 32 is getting towards the end of a premier league footballers career?

I don't get your comparison with Townsend either, because he clearly isn't as quick as he used to be.

Rondon is absolutely nothing like Distin. Distin was one of the fittest athletes I have seen at Goodison. He was always in the gym. If Distin had been out like Rondon has, he would be in much better shape.

FWIW I don't agree about your comments with Rondon and his athleticism. Sure he is a strong bloke but it is his attitude to the game that sets him apart and makes him a better player than his actual talent. My biggest concern is that we aren't even seeing any of that gamesmanship from him yet. He is getting beaten for pace, strength and sharpness of mind. I think he is a better player than we have seen so far, at least based on his Newcastle days. I don't know what he has been doing in China and Russia.

My comments and your comments on Townsend had absolutely nothing to do with pace and everything to do with the fact you said he wasn't a very good player and never has been. 

Sorry to piss on your bonfire mate but if you wanna get prematurely negative over a player and make comments like you had scouted him and he wasnt up to scratch then you can expect pushback .... You were not even aware that he was two footed with a cannon of a left foot. Have a look back at your comments on him. 

32 is not old for a striker ....it's not like we are signing him to be a force in 2 years time, he is cover.  His athleticism is stamina, leap, strength, Distin relied on pace Rondon doesn't. 

I actually think when you do watch games or players your observations are fine, but in cases like Rondon and Townsend you've tried to blag it really. 

 

[Shukes]

On 29/09/2021 at 10:35, Romey 1878 said:

I'm not arguing that either one should be playing or anything. I'm just a bit baffled why people are saying it's Rondon or Simms, when Dobbin is the one that came on but seems to be getting completely ignored in the entire conversation.

It’s just because he is new to most people mate.

When he was warming up, everyone was asking if it was Simms in the upper G. When I said it was Dobbin… they all replied, who haha!

You’ve done more to get him recognised than his appearance by mentioning him haha! Should pay you an agents fee!

[Romey 1878]

5 hours ago, Shukes said:

It’s just because he is new to most people mate.

When he was warming up, everyone was asking if it was Simms in the upper G. When I said it was Dobbin… they all replied, who haha!

You’ve done more to get him recognised than his appearance by mentioning him haha! Should pay you an agents fee!

I've known about Dobbin for a while mate, the club are quite excited about him and I hope we can get him signed to a new contract.

Know what you mean about most not knowing who he is though - I was talking to a fella before the game and he didn't have a clue who he was either.

[Cornish Steve]

I understand the situation is not what we expected, with both DC-L and Richarlison out at the same time, but...

Can you imagine if we'd been told upfront: "We're bringing in a guy as our striker. He's been playing in the lower leagues in recent years and not even played or trained for a few months, but we'll slot him in anyway as our lone striker and give him four or five games to reach the right level of fitness. He's getting on a bit, but we expect him to work out."

Such an approach would rightly be regarded as outrageous. (It's an exaggeration, of course. It's unfair, of course. But it's not so far from the truth of it.) Never before have I seen or heard of a Prem League club using actual game time (70+ minutes per game) as the training ground for a totally unproven and unfit recruit. We just don't have the luxury to do such a thing. Before such a last-ditch scenario, surely we should trust the leading lights in our U-23 squad, or even the U-21 squad. They've proven something and they're hungry and fit.

I'm not saying we write off Rondon. He deserves the chance to prove himself - but only when he's fit enough and hungry enough to contribute. Already I'm sick of seeing that embarrassed grin when he messes up for the umpteenth time.

Let's hope that, against United, he'll prove me completely wrong and I must eat my words.

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I understand the situation is not what we expected, with both DC-L and Richarlison out at the same time, but...

Can you imagine if we'd been told upfront: "We're bringing in a guy as our striker. He's been playing in the lower leagues in recent years and not even played or trained for a few months, but we'll slot him in anyway as our lone striker and give him four or five games to reach the right level of fitness. He's getting on a bit, but we expect him to work out."

Such an approach would rightly be regarded as outrageous. (It's an exaggeration, of course. It's unfair, of course. But it's not so far from the truth of it.) Never before have I seen or heard of a Prem League club using actual game time (70+ minutes per game) as the training ground for a totally unproven and unfit recruit. We just don't have the luxury to do such a thing. Before such a last-ditch scenario, surely we should trust the leading lights in our U-23 squad, or even the U-21 squad. They've proven something and they're hungry and fit.

I'm not saying we write off Rondon. He deserves the chance to prove himself - but only when he's fit enough and hungry enough to contribute. Already I'm sick of seeing that embarrassed grin when he messes up for the umpteenth time.

Let's hope that, against United, he'll prove me completely wrong and I must eat my words.

Rafa has created a system that relies on a physical forward who is good in the air.  

Unless Rafa is a shit manager and doesn't realise that the young unfit inexperienced players are a better choice than Rondon. 

No.  Rafa is a smart manager, if an unfit off form Rondon is being played then it's clear the youngsters aren't right. 

[Palfy]

11 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Rafa has created a system that relies on a physical forward who is good in the air.  

Unless Rafa is a shit manager and doesn't realise that the young unfit inexperienced players are a better choice than Rondon. 

No.  Rafa is a smart manager, if an unfit off form Rondon is being played then it's clear the youngsters aren't right. 

Or maybe Rafa has a vendetta against said players