Beto

[Romey 1878]

15 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Thought he looked more of a goal threat than DCL in twenty minutes than DCL has in the last 20 games tbh

He's always likely to when he's coming on at the end of games against tired defenders.

DCL would look better doing that too but we need him from the start because he's a better player.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

28 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Honestly?

He literally had two clear easy chances and somehow managed to clear rugby goal posts. 
 

He was given chances I agree. But that wasn’t due to him at all, that was due to other players creating the chances. He was a million miles away from converting them.

I respect your opinion mate of you think he is anywhere near the standard. Myself though… I’m think Dom is light years ahead of him and would like to see others given a chance ahead of him. He isn’t our future at all.

I also think DCL is our best striker just don’t agree that we should stop using Beto and for the record DCL has also been guilty of missing quite a few sitters of late

 

[Shukes]

21 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I also think DCL is our best striker just don’t agree that we should stop using Beto and for the record DCL has also been guilty of missing quite a few sitters of late

 

He has missed a few, but I wouldn’t call them sitters. Come on… you would have bet money on a ten year old to get that on target. I honestly think Dobbin or Chermiti would have scored those chances, I wouldn’t have expected them to score the ones Dom missed.

Time will tell I suppose. Beto will either stay here and make an impact… or he won’t and one of the others will step up. 
If either of those happened I would be happy.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

23 hours ago, Shukes said:

He has missed a few, but I wouldn’t call them sitters. Come on… you would have bet money on a ten year old to get that on target. I honestly think Dobbin or Chermiti would have scored those chances, I wouldn’t have expected them to score the ones Dom missed.

Time will tell I suppose. Beto will either stay here and make an impact… or he won’t and one of the others will step up. 
If either of those happened I would be happy.

We have been watching different games then.

In fact I would go as far as to say DCL probably committed the worse miss of the season full stop, was it City at home where he was unmarked inside the six yard box and somehow manage to hook a half volley over the bar?

The other night he had two headers inside the six yard box and never managed to get either on target

Yes DCL is comfortably our best striker but you are trying to make out he is clinical in front of goal when the reality is he is far from it

DCL is a good all round striker and there is a lot to his game but his finishing is his weakest element

[Palfy]

On 28/02/2024 at 07:50, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

We have been watching different games then.

In fact I would go as far as to say DCL probably committed the worse miss of the season full stop, was it City at home where he was unmarked inside the six yard box and somehow manage to hook a half volley over the bar?

The other night he had two headers inside the six yard box and never managed to get either on target

Yes DCL is comfortably our best striker but you are trying to make out he is clinical in front of goal when the reality is he is far from it

DCL is a good all round striker and there is a lot to his game but his finishing is his weakest element

Which is a shame because for all the hard work he puts in, it’s sadly only goals that win games. 
Now I’m not suggesting that DCL is the only one responsible for getting goals, but he should be at least be our top scorer or high in the assists, yet he is no where near these stats, and when you haven’t scored in your last 19 league games as a striker, the team has a problem and Beto doesn’t seem to be the answer to that problem. 
I genuinely can’t wait for DCL to get his goal and get the monkey off his back, for his own wellbeing and that of the team and supporters. 

[Sev]

Hopefully none missed as bad as this from Jon Dahl Tomasson

Strikers not scoring IS a problem for them. The psychological factor plays a huge role for their confidence.

Beto trains with the team and should be putting in a few soon and Calvert-Lewin should also do that, though can't really put a finger on his work rate.

[Cornish Steve]

Watching Beto against Brighton, I thought he was quite decent. Like DC-L, he needs a goal or two to boost confidence.

[Shukes]

On 28/02/2024 at 07:50, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

We have been watching different games then.

In fact I would go as far as to say DCL probably committed the worse miss of the season full stop, was it City at home where he was unmarked inside the six yard box and somehow manage to hook a half volley over the bar?

The other night he had two headers inside the six yard box and never managed to get either on target

Yes DCL is comfortably our best striker but you are trying to make out he is clinical in front of goal when the reality is he is far from it

DCL is a good all round striker and there is a lot to his game but his finishing is his weakest element

I’m not trying to say that at all mate. I think you’re trying your hardest to make something out of nothing mate. 
 

Im not going to argue anymore. Dom is hands down our best option for me. But he isn’t a natural goal scorer by any means. That shouldn’t be up for debate.

Beto is a three legged kangaroo on skates for me and offers the square root of nothing. Honestly for me that miss was absolutely terrible, but no surprise.

For me it’s time to start trusting the youngsters for a few matches and seeing what they can offer. If they offer nothing, we’re in the same boat.

 

[patto]

5 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I’m not trying to say that at all mate. I think you’re trying your hardest to make something out of nothing mate. 
 

Im not going to argue anymore. Dom is hands down our best option for me. But he isn’t a natural goal scorer by any means. That shouldn’t be up for debate.

Beto is a three legged kangaroo on skates for me and offers the square root of nothing. Honestly for me that miss was absolutely terrible, but no surprise.

For me it’s time to start trusting the youngsters for a few matches and seeing what they can offer. If they offer nothing, we’re in the same boat.

 

Unfortunately we don’t have much upfront Chermiti and Okoronkwo are our only options Okoronkwo has only just come back from injury and won’t be fully fit. 

[Shukes]

Just now, patto said:

Unfortunately we don’t have much upfront Chermiti and Okoronkwo are our only options Okoronkwo has only just come back from injury and won’t be fully fit. 

I like the look of Chermiti. Seems to have a bit of aggression about him.

Okoronlwo looked to he flying in the reserves. He looked a man in a boys team so I hope he doesn’t come back and carry on where he left off. 
Maybe he’s one for next season.

Dobbin will probably have a couple of years growing out wide. 

[patto]

2 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I like the look of Chermiti. Seems to have a bit of aggression about him.

Okoronlwo looked to he flying in the reserves. He looked a man in a boys team so I hope he doesn’t come back and carry on where he left off. 
Maybe he’s one for next season.

Dobbin will probably have a couple of years growing out wide. 

I’m not sure Dobbs has it but hope he comes through. 

[StevO]

As a back up, Beto is absolutely fine. Everyone knows DCL is first choice when fit. We cant afford to buy a striker better than DCL, and any striker of similar quality wont be coming here to sit on the bench.

We've got to be a bit realistic with our expactations.

If you want to see some goals from our strikers, then take a good look at the quality of the players around them, or the lack of. We dont create a lot, they feed on scraps.

Look at when we have Lukaku scoring for fun. He had Mirallas, Deulofeu, Barkley, Coleman, Baines. Put him in this team, he would struggle for goals too.

When DCL was scoring goals he had Richarlison, Sigurdsson, James, Digne, Coleman. 

Over the last five years we have sold so much attacking talent and replaced them with lesser quality players. Thats our problem in front of goal. We can all say about the chance DCL had against Villa, but that probably the only real chance and we've seen good players miss one on one before. We need to be more creative.

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, StevO said:

As a back up, Beto is absolutely fine. Everyone knows DCL is first choice when fit. We cant afford to buy a striker better than DCL, and any striker of similar quality wont be coming here to sit on the bench.

We've got to be a bit realistic with our expactations.

If you want to see some goals from our strikers, then take a good look at the quality of the players around them, or the lack of. We dont create a lot, they feed on scraps.

Look at when we have Lukaku scoring for fun. He had Mirallas, Deulofeu, Barkley, Coleman, Baines. Put him in this team, he would struggle for goals too.

When DCL was scoring goals he had Richarlison, Sigurdsson, James, Digne, Coleman. 

Over the last five years we have sold so much attacking talent and replaced them with lesser quality players. Thats our problem in front of goal. We can all say about the chance DCL had against Villa, but that probably the only real chance and we've seen good players miss one on one before. We need to be more creative.

Don’t create a lot, maybe not so much in the last 6 or so games, but we have been close to the top of the league for chances created this season, some games have been as high as 19 chances. How many do you need before you start converting them on a regular basis, DCL hasn’t scored in 19 not because the lack of opportunities but because of poor execution of his opportunities, and yet without doubt he is still our best forward because of what else he offers the team.  
Just a shame he’s not doing the most important bit by putting the ball in the net every now and then.  

[Wiggytop]

16 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Don’t create a lot, maybe not so much in the last 6 or so games, but we have been close to the top of the league for chances created this season, some games have been as high as 19 chances. How many do you need before you start converting them on a regular basis, DCL hasn’t scored in 19 not because the lack of opportunities but because of poor execution of his opportunities, and yet without doubt he is still our best forward because of what else he offers the team.  
Just a shame he’s not doing the most important bit by putting the ball in the net every now and then.  

We created loads of chances in the early games of the season, guess who was leading the line, yep Maupay, DCL came back for the Villa game and put his head on the line and got concussion, missed a few more games and has been getting his fitness back, during that time we’ve not provided  as many chances, some yes but not as many. I have given him Harrison’s chest skim, Harrison knew nothing about it, it should be recorded as DCLs.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

11 hours ago, Shukes said:

I’m not trying to say that at all mate. I think you’re trying your hardest to make something out of nothing mate. 
 

Im not going to argue anymore. Dom is hands down our best option for me. But he isn’t a natural goal scorer by any means. That shouldn’t be up for debate.

Beto is a three legged kangaroo on skates for me and offers the square root of nothing. Honestly for me that miss was absolutely terrible, but no surprise.

For me it’s time to start trusting the youngsters for a few matches and seeing what they can offer. If they offer nothing, we’re in the same boat.

 

 

You’ve basically said that we should never play Beto again because he missed a couple of sitters and insinuated DCL doesn’t do the same

‘Imagine if Dom missed the chances he missed. Our fans would be relegating Dom to non league status for those misses.’

I’m just pointing out DCL has missed far better chances and do so on a regular basis

Im in total agreement that DCL is the better forward and deserves to be starting 

 

[Gwlad]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

DCL hasn’t scored in 19 not because the lack of opportunities but because of poor execution of his opportunities, and yet without doubt he is still our best forward because of what else he offers the team.  
Just a shame he’s not doing the most important bit by putting the ball in the net every now and then.  

This.

[StevO]

7 hours ago, Palfy said:

Don’t create a lot, maybe not so much in the last 6 or so games, but we have been close to the top of the league for chances created this season, some games have been as high as 19 chances. How many do you need before you start converting them on a regular basis, DCL hasn’t scored in 19 not because the lack of opportunities but because of poor execution of his opportunities, and yet without doubt he is still our best forward because of what else he offers the team.  
Just a shame he’s not doing the most important bit by putting the ball in the net every now and then.  

Have you seen us play? 
We were close to the top of the chances created table, because a ball into the box counts as a chance. A free kick, a corner, a cross. All chances. Quality chances? Doubt it. 
 

Can anyone who has watched us play football this season say we are a team that creates a lot of chances? Not because the stats say so but because your eyes have seen them? 

During this poor run of form Dom is having he’s probably missed about half a dozen good chances, in 20 games! Yes he should have scored, but our service is shite regardless. If he scored half of his good chances his figures would still be poor. 
 

I like the general style of play we have, but the lack of quality in the team is a joke. 

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, StevO said:

Have you seen us play? 
We were close to the top of the chances created table, because a ball into the box counts as a chance. A free kick, a corner, a cross. All chances. Quality chances? Doubt it. 
 

Can anyone who has watched us play football this season say we are a team that creates a lot of chances? Not because the stats say so but because your eyes have seen them? 

During this poor run of form Dom is having he’s probably missed about half a dozen good chances, in 20 games! Yes he should have scored, but our service is shite regardless. If he scored half of his good chances his figures would still be poor. 
 

I like the general style of play we have, but the lack of quality in the team is a joke. 

Yes I can, I think I have seen 90% of the games this season or more, and we have squandered countless attempts at goal, and I’m not talking crosses into the box I’m talking shots and headers on goal, our attempts at goal are up there with the highest in the league, our conversion rate is down with the lowest. 
Our Achilles heel is not the amount of chances we create it is the execution of those chances, as a collective we are very poor at converting good chances. 

[Matt]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

Yes I can, I think I have seen 90% of the games this season or more, and we have squandered countless attempts at goal, and I’m not talking crosses into the box I’m talking shots and headers on goal, our attempts at goal are up there with the highest in the league, our conversion rate is down with the lowest. 
Our Achilles heel is not the amount of chances we create it is the execution of those chances, as a collective we are very poor at converting good chances. 

If we're very poor at converting chances, then the chances aren't good enough. 

[Palfy]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

If we're very poor at converting chances, then the chances aren't good enough. 

Your an Everton member go on the app and see for yourself, it’s got every game that we’ve played this season, it gives you all the stats you need, from shots, shots on target ect, it also gives you the same stats for the opposition. 
We have in a majority of our games out performed our opponents in goal attempts yet have still lost or not scored, but don’t take my word for it take a look. 
I know we would all like to forget the big chances missed from DCL and Beto, but don’t say they never happened, I’ve seen them with my own eyes, they’ve been spoken about on here, by Dyche, and in the media. 
Dunc posted an article earlier today on Chimatti, which clearly highlights the concerns of DCL and Beto and how poor they have been in front of goal. 
But please do your own research if you think I’m talking nonsense. 

[Matt]

16 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Your an Everton member go on the app and see for yourself, it’s got every game that we’ve played this season, it gives you all the stats you need, from shots, shots on target ect, it also gives you the same stats for the opposition. 
We have in a majority of our games out performed our opponents in goal attempts yet have still lost or not scored, but don’t take my word for it take a look. 
I know we would all like to forget the big chances missed from DCL and Beto, but don’t say they never happened, I’ve seen them with my own eyes, they’ve been spoken about on here, by Dyche, and in the media. 
Dunc posted an article earlier today on Chimatti, which clearly highlights the concerns of DCL and Beto and how poor they have been in front of goal. 
But please do your own research if you think I’m talking nonsense. 

I don't need to do research. Numbers and stats are great for backing up a specific argument. But what makes up those stats is also important and what makes up the stats you're referring to is a windsock stat, I.e. gives you a very general idea but zero context. 

I spent the first few weeks defending xG or however its written, so I'm quite comfortable with stats. But the "sitters" are not always sitters, the quality chances are defined by people looking to analyse data, not the game. I've heard from people "oh but player X would've buried that" and they're either referring to an Aguero level player or someone from the 70s when the game was vastly different. So a sitter is relative. If you know what is defined as a "quality chance" or any of the Opta generated-for-cash bullshit stats, I'd love to know. Regardless of the answer, if there's no context, the stat is meaningless at best, misinformative at worst.

We also all know that Dom's finishing isn't always the best which is why Carlo made him a poacher. But Carlo also had James, Richarlison, Gylfi, Bernard, Digne... much higher creative quality creating much easier finishes. Which is what I was referring too in my initial reply; DCL is our best forward so we need to play to his strengths. Unfortunately we don't have that creativity to consitently do that. 

So again, our chances are not good enough, regardless of how many we are creating, relative to our striking options. 

[Palfy]

51 minutes ago, Matt said:

I don't need to do research. Numbers and stats are great for backing up a specific argument. But what makes up those stats is also important and what makes up the stats you're referring to is a windsock stat, I.e. gives you a very general idea but zero context. 

I spent the first few weeks defending xG or however its written, so I'm quite comfortable with stats. But the "sitters" are not always sitters, the quality chances are defined by people looking to analyse data, not the game. I've heard from people "oh but player X would've buried that" and they're either referring to an Aguero level player or someone from the 70s when the game was vastly different. So a sitter is relative. If you know what is defined as a "quality chance" or any of the Opta generated-for-cash bullshit stats, I'd love to know. Regardless of the answer, if there's no context, the stat is meaningless at best, misinformative at worst.

We also all know that Dom's finishing isn't always the best which is why Carlo made him a poacher. But Carlo also had James, Richarlison, Gylfi, Bernard, Digne... much higher creative quality creating much easier finishes. Which is what I was referring too in my initial reply; DCL is our best forward so we need to play to his strengths. Unfortunately we don't have that creativity to consitently do that. 

So again, our chances are not good enough, regardless of how many we are creating, relative to our striking options. 

Well I’ve seen DCL missed chances, mostly from inside the 6 yrd box, and a majority with his head which is considered his greatest weapon. 
If they weren’t considered good chances in most people’s opinions I wouldn’t be discussing this with you, for me it’s that he isn’t hitting the target, or making the keeper work. 
I have said in the past scoring goals is not just the responsibility of the strikers, it’s the responsibility of all 10 outfield players, Doucoure is the only player who is regularly chipping in with goals, with far less opportunities falling to him than DCL and Beto. 
I will give you one game based on stats as an example even though you don’t agree with stats as measurement to how teams have performed, I do agree that sometimes stats don’t give you the bigger picture. But let’s look at our home game against Fulham as an example, Everton shots 19 on target 9 XG 2.85, Fulham 9 shots on target 2 XG 1.70, Fulham went on to win that game 0-2. Dyche put that loss down to poor finishing, and used XG to back up his point, stating he doesn’t take much notice of stats but felt he had to on this occasion, imo he didn’t have to it was clear to everyone who watched that game how dismal we were in front of goal. 
There are plenty more games like that if you care to look, but I chose that more to highlight how a manager reacted to the XG. 
Obviously football is about opinions and people have different opinions, my opinion is we are poor upfront and have failed to execute some golden chances, in most of the games I’ve watched, and that is huge concern for me. 

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Well I’ve seen DCL missed chances, mostly from inside the 6 yrd box, and a majority with his head which is considered his greatest weapon. 
If they weren’t considered good chances in most people’s opinions I wouldn’t be discussing this with you, for me it’s that he isn’t hitting the target, or making the keeper work. 
I have said in the past scoring goals is not just the responsibility of the strikers, it’s the responsibility of all 10 outfield players, Doucoure is the only player who is regularly chipping in with goals, with far less opportunities falling to him than DCL and Beto. 
I will give you one game based on stats as an example even though you don’t agree with stats as measurement to how teams have performed, I do agree that sometimes stats don’t give you the bigger picture. But let’s look at our home game against Fulham as an example, Everton shots 19 on target 9 XG 2.85, Fulham 9 shots on target 2 XG 1.70, Fulham went on to win that game 0-2. Dyche put that loss down to poor finishing, and used XG to back up his point, stating he doesn’t take much notice of stats but felt he had to on this occasion, imo he didn’t have to it was clear to everyone who watched that game how dismal we were in front of goal. 
There are plenty more games like that if you care to look, but I chose that more to highlight how a manager reacted to the XG. 
Obviously football is about opinions and people have different opinions, my opinion is we are poor upfront and have failed to execute some golden chances, in most of the games I’ve watched, and that is huge concern for me. 

Who's most peoples opinions? Most people don't come online and discuss things, you've no idea (nor any of us) what most peoples opinions are

Should they be doing better as strikers? Yes. Are all the chances they have guaranteed goals for any other striker? No.

"I will give you one game based on stats as an example even though you don’t agree with stats as measurement to how teams have performed" - no idea what you're on about now. I just said that I had used xG as an early indicator when people were panicking early doors with exact same reasoning as Dyche. I'm constantly referring to stats to argue a specific point when debating strikers. What I don't agree with is stats and comments out of context and the ever increasing myriad of nonsense Opta et al spit out to make pundits sound like they have a fucking clue. I also think that after 6 months of creating these chances, when we've got a proven goalscorer with the right sort of chances to convert, that maybe the chances are not getting the best out of our striking options and so the chances aren't as good as people think. Which, considering the injury list and thin squad, isn't that surprising really, we hit and hope because we're out of options without a fit Doucoure.

[Shukes]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

If we're very poor at converting chances, then the chances aren't good enough. 

Exactly. I had this conversation with a few others. We have been so poor that any chance we get we feel should be a goal. 
Dom had a chance the other week that people are shouting it’s a free header. They discount the big curly hair guy jumping into him and moving his body slightly while in the air to put him off. When I pointed this out I got…. He has to be stronger there!

I asked how you can be stronger while actually already in the air, but that went over their head.

Desperation affects our view because we want goals so badly. Dom has missed a lot of chances that if he was confident should be putting away. But he isn’t missing open goals each week.

Beto had a clear through one on one and the ball is actually in my back garden. 

[Palfy]

5 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Exactly. I had this conversation with a few others. We have been so poor that any chance we get we feel should be a goal. 
Dom had a chance the other week that people are shouting it’s a free header. They discount the big curly hair guy jumping into him and moving his body slightly while in the air to put him off. When I pointed this out I got…. He has to be stronger there!

I asked how you can be stronger while actually already in the air, but that went over their head.

Desperation affects our view because we want goals so badly. Dom has missed a lot of chances that if he was confident should be putting away. But he isn’t missing open goals each week.

Beto had a clear through one on one and the ball is actually in my back garden. 

Well he’s been dropped today, no mention of an injury and trained all week, so I can only assume Dyche wasn’t happy with something, and that could be the chances he’s missed, because there can be no criticism of his work rate. 

[Btay]

2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Well he’s been dropped today, no mention of an injury and trained all week, so I can only assume Dyche wasn’t happy with something, and that could be the chances he’s missed, because there can be no criticism of his work rate. 

I think Dyche has given it more than enough time for the goal drought to end. These things happen in football but it's at the point where Dyche needs to do something. A fresh DCL for 30 minutes at the end of the game will be a real handful for West Ham as he will hopefully be out to prove he is the #1.

[Palfy]

7 minutes ago, Btay said:

I think Dyche has given it more than enough time for the goal drought to end. These things happen in football but it's at the point where Dyche needs to do something. A fresh DCL for 30 minutes at the end of the game will be a real handful for West Ham as he will hopefully be out to prove he is the #1.

I think you’re right 20 games from his number 1 striker and not 1 goal from said player says something had to be changed. 
We haven’t won in our last 10 league games, but have recorded 6 draws, if not for the want of some better finishing those 6 draws could have been wins. 
Let's hope the changes get the desired result, and that the 4 points given back to us have the desired effect on our confidence in front of goal, by taking just a little bit more pressure off the players. 

[Sev]

Good for Beto he scored on that header, though missing that penalty was quite poor.

[Romey 1878]

He played well other than that awful penalty. You could tell he wasn't going to score just from his run up, it was more or less dead straight.

[Palfy]

Deserved his goal today a good finish from a great cross. The penalty was a poor attempt no power so the only way that was going in was if the keeper went the wrong way. 
I still stand by what I said in game time, a striker who was in poor scoring form should not have been given the responsibility of taking the penalty, imo it was a huge mistake and the pressure was too high for a player who was struggling in front of goal.