Matt Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 It's only a problem if you let it be. Appearance is irrelevant, it's his abilities that's important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Not yet for Unsworth. Yet.... Agreed. Would love for him to manage us in the future if he gets managerial experience and shows the aptitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 struggle with pie issues? fix0red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdrumm1954 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 It wont be Moyes mate I'm pretty certain of it. If they are talking to him it'll be for DoFHope you're right mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 As I've said its all about perception. The guy is massively overweight. Not slightly.... Massively. He's 42 in a coaching role in sports. What the hells going on? Sub consciously these things matter. Same with any type of employment. If your face fits you usually get on in life. Whether your thick as pig shit or not. Many people in this world understand that genetics are impossible to completely overcome. Men in my family, for instance, gain muscle mass very easily. When I'm not a lazy shit and actually get exercise, even if it's just cardio, my legs look like fucking tree trunks and my pants don't fit. We just add mass. No amount of cardio work does away with our thick frame, and as we age it becomes less and less possible to slim down (no man in my family can be thin no matter what they do). We don't have little boy bodies. It's fine. Aesthetics are different in different places and at different times. The Spanish guys I play footy with (occasionally these days... work has been dominating my life) make fun of the thin, ultra-fit guy for not looking enough like a man and, instead, looking boyish. They don't respect that (and they think women hate it). Aesthetics matter, sure. But, they don't matter in every place or field in quite the same form or the same way. I'm in academia, for instance. I don't pay much attention to people's appearance, because their ideas and their writing are what make them more or less valuable. The two people I was happiest about meeting last week were David Harvey and Slavoj Zizek. Neither of these men are going to appear in the tabloids in their Speedos for good reasons. Why didn't this matter? Well, they are bright, intellectually-stimulating, proficient thinkers who I respect for their work. Their value for me, as an anthropologist, is determined by their ability to help me work through issues within my own work. This is also, in essence, what a manager does. A manager provides a framework, makes tweaks and instructs the players in ways that set them up to successfully navigate their way through a match and maximize their potential on the field. I think that professional players care more about having a manger with a mind and methods they can respect. They don't need someone to hop in at left back in a pinch. They would rather win than have another hot body to stare at in the locker room. Louis Van Gaal looks more fit to be running a clown college than a football team, yet he's managed for years at the highest level. We're not talking about a systemic issue in the general labor market. We're talking about an exceptional field here. Look at American sports. Lots of fat coaches. But, if they're fat coaches that win, that's all that matters. Anyhow, I'd be more worried about two very clear discriminatory issues that exist in football: race and gender. How many Black and Asian managers are there in the top European leagues these days? How many women get prominent roles in football clubs? Certainly, there are more overweight managers than black and women ones combined. chicagoblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Many people in this world understand that genetics are impossible to completely overcome. Men in my family, for instance, gain muscle mass very easily. When I'm not a lazy shit and actually get exercise, even if it's just cardio, my legs look like fucking tree trunks and my pants don't fit. We just add mass. No amount of cardio work does away with our thick frame, and as we age it becomes less and less possible to slim down (no man in my family can be thin no matter what they do). We don't have little boy bodies. It's fine. Aesthetics are different in different places and at different times. The Spanish guys I play footy with (occasionally these days... work has been dominating my life) make fun of the thin, ultra-fit guy for not looking enough like a man and, instead, looking boyish. They don't respect that (and they think women hate it). Aesthetics matter, sure. But, they don't matter in every place or field in quite the same form or the same way. I'm in academia, for instance. I don't pay much attention to people's appearance, because their ideas and their writing are what make them more or less valuable. The two people I was happiest about meeting last week were David Harvey and Slavoj Zizek. Neither of these men are going to appear in the tabloids in their Speedos for good reasons. Why didn't this matter? Well, they are bright, intellectually-stimulating, proficient thinkers who I respect for their work. Their value for me, as an anthropologist, is determined by their ability to help me work through issues within my own work. This is also, in essence, what a manager does. A manager provides a framework, makes tweaks and instructs the players in ways that set them up to successfully navigate their way through a match and maximize their potential on the field. I think that professional players care more about having a manger with a mind and methods they can respect. They don't need someone to hop in at left back in a pinch. They would rather win than have another hot body to stare at in the locker room. Louis Van Gaal looks more fit to be running a clown college than a football team, yet he's managed for years at the highest level. We're not talking about a systemic issue in the general labor market. We're talking about an exceptional field here. Look at American sports. Lots of fat coaches. But, if they're fat coaches that win, that's all that matters. Anyhow, I'd be more worried about two very clear discriminatory issues that exist in football: race and gender. How many Black and Asian managers are there in the top European leagues these days? How many women get prominent roles in football clubs? Certainly, there are more overweight managers than black and women ones combined. See I sit on the other side of the fence....... I don't agree with giving someone a job on the basis of them being Black, Pakistani or female etc alone. Just so it all looks equal. There's been a few black managers in top jobs anyway....Rijkaard and Seedorf come to mind straight away. This racism thing needs to stop. "There's not enough black managers" seriously that's just an awful shout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 See I sit on the other side of the fence....... I don't agree with giving someone a job on the basis of them being Black, Pakistani or female etc alone. Just so it all looks equal. There's been a few black managers in top jobs anyway....Rijkaard and Seedorf come to mind straight away. This racism thing needs to stop. "There's not enough black managers" seriously that's just an awful shout. You don't get it. The point is that there are plenty of qualified black managers, yet they aren't taken seriously when it comes to management positions. That's how discrimination works. Nobody would say "give him a job because he's black." That's not the argument. The problem is that black managers can't even get their foot in the door or be seen as legitimate candidates. Now, tell me why that is... chicagoblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 You don't get it. The point is that there are plenty of qualified black managers, yet they aren't taken seriously when it comes to management positions. That's how discrimination works. Nobody would say "give him a job because he's black." That's not the argument. The problem is that black managers can't even get their foot in the door or be seen as legitimate candidates. Now, tell me why that is... Because it actually has NOTHING to do with their skin colour? Because they're just crap managers? John Barnes Paul Ince Hasselbaink All had jobs but turned out crap. Big jobs need to be earned. Chris Hughton is consistantly hired but he's a championship level manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 See I sit on the other side of the fence....... I don't agree with giving someone a job on the basis of them being Black, Pakistani or female etc alone. Just so it all looks equal. There's been a few black managers in top jobs anyway....Rijkaard and Seedorf come to mind straight away. This racism thing needs to stop. "There's not enough black managers" seriously that's just an awful shout. so you would hire someone based on their capabilities rather than appearance, if they were good enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) Don't start on the "black manager" subject I instantly hear John Barnes's overly annoying voice preaching absolute bollocks Fact of the matter is studies have shown not enough have entered the fray and earned their stripes how many black managers have you seen over the year's managing Sunday league sides semi pro and lower level sides etc? It's all down to ex high profile players thinking they deserve a shot at a high level club when they've got fuck all behind them bar a playing career to back it up then pull the race card out of their arse to push or force the issue purely for self benifit it's nonsense Edited May 28, 2016 by EFC-Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 so you would hire someone based on their capabilities rather than appearance, if they were good enough? Completely different scenario. Colour of skin and controlling your weight don't even come close. Look the issue I have with Unsworth is the amount of weight he's carrying. He's absolutely huge and in my opinion, be it subconsciously or not it isn't doing him any favours. I'm just pointing out if he was slimmer he'd more than likely be taken more seriously. I don't expect you or want you to agree with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 It's not a matter of wanting to, you're just contradicting yourself. I do agree with you on the "forced equality" though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Don't start on the "black manager" subject I instantly hear John Barnes's overly annoying voice preaching absolute bollocks Fact of the matter is studies have shown not enough have entered the fray and earned their stripes how many black managers have you seen over the year's managing Sunday league sides semi pro and lower level sides etc? It's all down to ex high profile players thinking they deserve a shot at a high level club when they've got fuck all behind them bar a playing career to back it up then pull the race card out of their arse to push or force the issue purely for self benifit it's nonsense I'm not talking about high-profile ex-players thinking they're shit hot and being nothing more than assholes. That happens across the board. I'm talking about something structural and systemic that keeps reproducing itself. I'm happy you brought up the fact that not enough black men have entered the fray and earned their stripes. My question: Why? How has this happened? What percentage of players in England's top leagues are black? What percentage end up in the pipeline to management positions? Why this under-representation? Is it a cultural issue of theirs? Is it recognition that they don't have a chance? Is it that nobody tells them to do it or helps connect them to the right opportunities? chicagoblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 I'm not talking about high-profile ex-players thinking they're shit hot and being nothing more than assholes. That happens across the board. I'm talking about something structural and systemic that keeps reproducing itself. I'm happy you brought up the fact that not enough black men have entered the fray and earned their stripes. My question: Why? How has this happened? What percentage of players in England's top leagues are black? What percentage end up in the pipeline to management positions? Why this under-representation? Is it a cultural issue of theirs? Is it recognition that they don't have a chance? Is it that nobody tells them to do it or helps connect them to the right opportunities? I don't think so; I think the vast majority of the British public are way past discriminating against people due to the colour of their skin (they just hate the Poles instead now). Obviously there are exceptions but I think racism is far less of a problem over here than it is over there. If a black manager was good enough I've no doubt he could make his way to the top of the ladder; as to why it hasn't happened yet I haven't a clue. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 I don't think so; I think the vast majority of the British public are way past discriminating against people due to the colour of their skin (they just hate the Poles instead now). Obviously there are exceptions but I think racism is far less of a problem over here than it is over there. If a black manager was good enough I've no doubt he could make his way to the top of the ladder; as to why it hasn't happened yet I haven't a clue. My questions were more or less rhetorical. But, I see this as a systemic and structural issue where implicit assumptions and networks based on similarity are in operation. Race doesn't need to be explicit for it to operate. It's been shown in both my country and yours that color-blind policy and ideology tends to reproduce and reinforce racial disparities in employment. Wishing race away doesn't work. How many of us got our jobs because somebody tapped us up? How many knew where to go and what to do because someone had done it before and was willing to help us out? How many got jobs because somebody said "this person is good for this, trust me"? How many of us have racially heterogenous groups of close friends? I don't buy the "race isn't an issue" argument. It's usually latent even if it isn't manifest. And it's built into the class structure of our countries. chicagoblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) The FA are now running the BAME coaching programme to try and influence more ex players etc to do their FA badges the idea of prejudice obvious or latent is null and void for me 25% of players in this country are black when you run that against the percentage of managers in the English top seven tiers and take into account that most are foreign players and won't set up shop here and live once they retire it's fairly reflective and some simply make enough money to not want to go into management Bare in mind that the amount of black players in this country has risen massively in the last 30 years so I do think down the line we will see the ripple effect of that into management Why is there no argument for Asian or other ethnicities? Because people like Barnes who have massive chips on their shoulders chirp up and try to become some form of pioneer and as said the ones that have been given the opportunity have failed massively for the most part Anyway it's well off topic and a relentless debate that can go on and on so that's it for me Edited May 28, 2016 by EFC-Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) The FA are now running the BAME coaching programme to try and influence more ex players etc to do their FA badges the idea of prejudice obvious or latent is null and void for me 25% of players in this country are black when you run that against the percentage of managers in the English top seven tiers and take into account that most are foreign players and won't set up shop here and live once they retire it's fairly reflective and some simply make enough money to not want to go into management Bare in mind that the amount of black players in this country has risen massively in the last 30 years so I do think down the line we will see the ripple effect of that into management Why is there no argument for Asian or other ethnicities? Because people like Barnes who have massive chips on their shoulders chirp up and try to become some form of pioneer and as said the ones that have been given the opportunity have failed massively for the most part Anyway it's well off topic and a relentless debate that can go on and on so that's it for me To be fair, I did bring up Black and Asian together, initially. I was taking your country's demographics into account. Anyways, all I'll say is active efforts to reduce disparities are necessary. Fat white guys who obviously shouldn't have these jobs because they can't control their appetite for tasty cakes get the jobs while totally hot, buff and tasty (and, therefore, totally qualified) Black and Asian men don't. Also, in the last few years I've experienced outward racism in central London (where they just elected a Muslim mayor) when some guy, for no reason, started verbally assaulting a female colleague for being a "fookin' Paki." It hasn't disappeared. It's just not en vogue. Anyhow. Back to my mantra. Joooooogiiiiiiii Lööööööööôw. Joooooogiiiiiiii Lööööööööôw. Joooooogiiiiiiii Lööööööööôw. Edited May 28, 2016 by JoeQuince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Back to Unsworth... I'll refer people to the Jonathan Wilson article in the Guardian I linked in the other management thread, about why history is against Mourinho at Man Utd - the most successful managers in England tend to start out in 30s-40s, don't necessarily have prior success as manager, hungry, able to spend time moulding a club in their image, often with 'dynasty' of young talent at their disposal... I argued a few months ago that appointing from within wouldn't be a bad idea and got shouted down. I don't subscribe to the idea that the only people we should be considering are those who have won trophies in, usually, far inferior leagues. I think character, vision and 'fit' are far more important - all intangibles maybe, but that is part of the alchemy of matching a manager to a football club. I really don't see how the likes of Emery and De Boer have anything more to suggest they would 'fit' our club than Unsworth. I'm not saying they wouldn't, and their respective achievements in winning trophies are impressive - I personally think Emery would be fantastic. But as far as passion for and understanding for the club goes, and inside knowledge of just how good our current crop of youngsters could be, Unsworth ticks some important boxes. That continuity could be the difference between building a dynasty and sitting here in three years picking over another false dawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 It hasn't disappeared. It's just not en vogue. This all day... though I will say that I think there is too much an effort now to be overly politically correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 This all day... though I will say that I think there is too much an effort now to be overly politically correct. Right. As if making sure you don't say the wrong things obliterates racism. Laughable. Also, I'm in total agreement with nogs re: Unsworth. I wouldn't have the stones to go ahead and appoint him. And, I think he's doing a great job with the youth, so I'm not sure I would want to lose someone who is molding our next generation of players and doing so impressively. But, I wouldn't be against him getting appointed in the least bit. Anyhow, back to chanting. Joooooogiiiiiiii Lööööööööw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Back to Unsworth... I'll refer people to the Jonathan Wilson article in the Guardian I linked in the other management thread, about why history is against Mourinho at Man Utd - the most successful managers in England tend to start out in 30s-40s, don't necessarily have prior success as manager, hungry, able to spend time moulding a club in their image, often with 'dynasty' of young talent at their disposal... I argued a few months ago that appointing from within wouldn't be a bad idea and got shouted down. I don't subscribe to the idea that the only people we should be considering are those who have won trophies in, usually, far inferior leagues. I think character, vision and 'fit' are far more important - all intangibles maybe, but that is part of the alchemy of matching a manager to a football club. I really don't see how the likes of Emery and De Boer have anything more to suggest they would 'fit' our club than Unsworth. I'm not saying they wouldn't, and their respective achievements in winning trophies are impressive - I personally think Emery would be fantastic. But as far as passion for and understanding for the club goes, and inside knowledge of just how good our current crop of youngsters could be, Unsworth ticks some important boxes. That continuity could be the difference between building a dynasty and sitting here in three years picking over another false dawn. Unsworth hasn't got anywhere near the stature to attract big named players. It would be a negative appointment in terms of profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 If you had a business that generated millions would you deem let's say an apprentice worthy of taking over your now departing director? No you wouldn't or I very much doubt you would Let the man continue his good work and show his worth as a number two or elsewhere and maybe down the line he will be good enough and experienced enough to take the reigns If you want to attract good players you need a good manager with the right contacts knowledge and experience I know if I was a player and two similar offers came in from two similar clubs the first thing I'd look at would be who my boss would be as that's what they are there for to make players better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Unsworth shouldn't be in the running. And it's not because he's fat. He's doing a grand job with the U21's along with Royle. I guess that's were a good shout for someone like a Pellegrini comes. Pellegrini knows the game. His next job will likely be his last. He could come in, Unsworth can work with him. When Pellegrini calls it a day, Unsworth steps in. Isn't that what Barcelona tend to do? It's a nice idea. Realistic? Hmmmm. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Unsworth hasn't got anywhere near the stature to attract big named players. It would be a negative appointment in terms of profile. We're not City or Chelsea. Attracting 'big name' players shouldn't be seen as the be all and end all of success, especially after this season. And I think your point is rubbish anyway. Players don't sign for a club because their manager is a 'big name'; the greedy ones do it for money, the ones who love football do it because they buy into the passion and vision of a manager and the hierarchy behind them. Was Ranieri a 'big name' when three quarters of the squad Mourinho won the league with signed for Chelsea? Oh no, that would have been the Abramovich money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Don't disagree with Joe or Newty. To be fair, I have no idea if Unsworth would be good enough to manage us - only the people who work with him and interview him know that. Maybe he needs more time to see just how good he can make our kids. I hope Joe Royale keeps playing a role at the club tho. The man is a legend, a real football man and has a lot to offer still I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 We're not City or Chelsea. Attracting 'big name' players shouldn't be seen as the be all and end all of success, especially after this season. And I think your point is rubbish anyway. Players don't sign for a club because their manager is a 'big name'; the greedy ones do it for money, the ones who love football do it because they buy into the passion and vision of a manager and the hierarchy behind them. Was Ranieri a 'big name' when three quarters of the squad Mourinho won the league with signed for Chelsea? Oh no, that would have been the Abramovich money. That's bollocks isn't it. players always come out and say "the manager" was one of the main reasons they joined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Back to Unsworth... I'll refer people to the Jonathan Wilson article in the Guardian I linked in the other management thread, about why history is against Mourinho at Man Utd - the most successful managers in England tend to start out in 30s-40s, don't necessarily have prior success as manager, hungry, able to spend time moulding a club in their image, often with 'dynasty' of young talent at their disposal... Sounds like Roberto Martinez to me - which goes to show that risk and reward go together. Is the club once again willing to take a risk in order to achieve reward, or appoint a dull, predictable manager who'll always finish just outside the top five? Personally, I'd take the risk every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3614535/Everton-Manuel-Pellegrini-probe-club-look-ensure-former-Manchester-City-boss-restore-discipline-dressing-room.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 If I was a gambling man I'd be putting money on us hiring Pellegrini. It's looking the most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Reading that article I am really warming to the idea of Pellegrini. Someone mentioned having him here to lay our foundations and bringing a younger prospect in after a few years. This could be another very good appointment following the arrival of Moshiri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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