Steve Walsh (Director of football)

[Quinn31]

As much as I think he and others have failed to deliver a coherent transfer plan and make good acquisitions with the entirety of the squad in mind, whoever fills his position should be a long term appointment. 

A club like us won't survive, much less thrive, if we become a club that sacks its manager every 8 months and its sporting director every 2 seasons. 

[Bill]

Where did you hear this Patto  ?

[memmaclub2]

Like moneyball stat based management you cannot create a blend in a team based on that. Every transfer is a gamble and to be honest all this about recruitment being shite I disagree. The choice not to buy a left back and striker in the summer is a glaring issue but I think they see something in Cuco that we don’t see. Not saying that’s correct but it could explain it. When you go through the players we bought at the time we bought them who or what would we have done differently. 

Keane was considered a great prospect came from Man U youth system and had some good seasons at Burnley. Only in hindsight can that be seen as a bad decision.

klassen Ajax captain of uefa cup finalists. On paper great signing.

sandro scores goals for fun in Spain and cost nothing.

I don’t think we can use the transition to the prem as an excuse as several came from other prem sides and have under performed. Except for Cuco who was never meant to be first choice, I would say all our signings have been hailed as just what we need on the day we sign them.

I think the problem was too much too soon. After letting lukaku go and knowing Ross wasn’t going to sign we should have focussed on 4 key positions keeper which we got right centre back as we had two over 30 Keane hasn’t worked out. Replacement for Ross siggy is just that. Finally a new striker all of the money should have been spent on those 4 positions and not bought in the 5/6 others we got in.

 

[Cornish Steve]

As I read this thread, a few things come to mind.

First, for the DoF role to work, the manager's ego must be such that he accepts the authority of the DoF to bring in players; it's the manager's role to get the best from them. Obviously, they should work together, but egos can get in the way. We started the season with, and now have, a manager with a huge ego, with little if any patience to allow a DoF to get in the way. This will always lead to a power struggle. In such an environment, "his player" versus "my player" becomes a real issue. I'm guessing Walsh is less combative and tried to quietly assert his authority behind the scenes while the big-ego managers acted as though he wasn't there - putting up with whatever players Walsh brought in. (I've seen similar situations happen in business, and it creates tension.) It strikes me that Walsh does not have the personality to thrive when bullies are around.

Second, I would not be at all surprised if there's a power struggle going on right now between Allardyce and Walsh. This would explain why Mangala gets to play (Sam's guy) and Tosun does not (Walsh's man). It would also explain why Sam's team sheet is being leaked every Friday. And it would explain some of Allardyce's comment (a shrug and "don't blame me"). Whichever of Walsh and Allardyce loses their position first will have won the power struggle and will be given more authority. The best outcome would be for both to leave at the same time.

Third, such a situation points to a weak leadership team. Rather than make clear everyone's roles and responsibilities, they try to appease everyone - which is the worst thing they can do. West Brom just fired its executives; maybe we need a similar shake-up right now - as long as the result is not Allardyce calling the shots. Moshiri is the one who must do this, since he's the one with the money and biggest financial stake. Let's see what he's made of.

[Shukes]

Wasn’t it Conte who said .. I’m not a manager, I’m a coach! I coach the players I have. 

This is our issue. Sam wants to be a manager, when in fact he should be coaching the players available as we have a DoF. 

[pete0]

isn'tt Alladyce Walsh's pick? Old friends and all that bollocks. Don't get this power struggle nonsense. Walsh has done a shit job. His players don't get picked as they're not good enough. 

[Bailey]

6 hours ago, pete0 said:

isn'ttt Alladyce Walsh's pick? Old friends and all that bollocks. Don't get this power struggle nonsense. Walsh has done a shit job. His players don't get picked as they're not good enough. 

If you assume all of them are Walshs picks then that only leaves Niasse, Davies and Kenny/Coleman that aren't.

[pete0]

58 minutes ago, Bailey said:

If you assume all of them are Walshs picks then that only leaves Niasse, Davies and Kenny/Coleman that aren't.

Says a lot that they are all in the few that can hold their head up for season.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

As I read this thread, a few things come to mind.

First, for the DoF role to work, the manager's ego must be such that he accepts the authority of the DoF to bring in players; it's the manager's role to get the best from them. Obviously, they should work together, but egos can get in the way. We started the season with, and now have, a manager with a huge ego, with little if any patience to allow a DoF to get in the way. This will always lead to a power struggle. In such an environment, "his player" versus "my player" becomes a real issue. I'm guessing Walsh is less combative and tried to quietly assert his authority behind the scenes while the big-ego managers acted as though he wasn't there - putting up with whatever players Walsh brought in. (I've seen similar situations happen in business, and it creates tension.) It strikes me that Walsh does not have the personality to thrive when bullies are around.

Second, I would not be at all surprised if there's a power struggle going on right now between Allardyce and Walsh. This would explain why Mangala gets to play (Sam's guy) and Tosun does not (Walsh's man). It would also explain why Sam's team sheet is being leaked every Friday. And it would explain some of Allardyce's comment (a shrug and "don't blame me"). Whichever of Walsh and Allardyce loses their position first will have won the power struggle and will be given more authority. The best outcome would be for both to leave at the same time.
Third, such a situation points to a weak leadership team. Rather than make clear everyone's roles and responsibilities, they try to appease everyone - which is the worst thing they can do. West Brom just fired its executives; maybe we need a similar shake-up right now - as long as the result is not Allardyce calling the shots. Moshiri is the one who must do this, since he's the one with the money and biggest financial stake. Let's see what he's made of.

Unfortunately your conspiracy theory falls over be the fact Walsh and Allardyce are close friends and that Walsh played a big part in bringing Allardyce here in the first place

[Gwlad]

Walsh seems to have hijacked the Allardyce thread today. So, if we sign Vardy (sincerely hope not) does that save the twat's skin?

[markjazzbassist]

4 minutes ago, Gwlad all over said:

Walsh seems to have hijacked the Allardyce thread today. So, if we sign Vardy (sincerely hope not) does that save the twat's skin?

for most that would be the final nail in the coffin.  many (myself included) don't want an aging striker who hasn't recovered their form of yesteryear.

[StevO]

On 20/01/2018 at 12:52, markjazzbassist said:

i don't get this.  bill isn'ttt pointing out players and signing them on his own.  walsh identifies Cenk and Bill goes and negotiates.  why can't bill moshiri et all negotiate?  wouldn't if be better to leave walsh to recruitment?  he's not a negotiator, shouldn't the business people who negotiate deals all day do the negotiating?  

Then what was the point in having a DoF? 

And why assume Walsh can’t negotiate? What’s he doing with his time? We don’t know what his role entails, but he’s not on the training pitch, so what does he do all day? If he’s doing some negotiation why not do all of them?

[StevO]

Very late reply there Mark. Didn’t realise that was so far back. 

[Quinn31]

22 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

for most that would be the final nail in the coffin.  many (myself included) don't want an aging striker who hasn't recovered their form of yesteryear.

 

[markjazzbassist]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

Then what was the point in having a DoF? 

And why assume Walsh can’t negotiate? What’s he doing with his time? We don’t know what his role entails, but he’s not on the training pitch, so what does he do all day? If he’s doing some negotiation why not do all of them?

not a problem ste, always good to have a conversation on here.  you're right, what is the point?  I'm against the DOF position.  Walsh is a terrible negotiator (if he does) because we've had the reports of all the failed transfers and targets that have gone elsewhere or stayed home.  Koeman said the striker with Valencia situation they were on what 4th or 5th option?  you think ed woodward is on 4th or 5th option?  is txiti at city on 4th or 5th option?  no, because they get their man.  hell even west ham has pipped us to a couple of signings, ogbonna, the RB from leeds (or was it LB), etc.  we lost out on giroud, surely throw more money, private jet, do something to land your man, he went to Chelsea and happily sits on the bench there, he would have been a starter here.

 

my understanding of steve's job is recruitment, finding players that fit the managers style.  maybe I'm wrong but why would he be the guy negotiating personal terms?  he has a background in scouting, not contract law.  I think he's probably the intial contact with the agent we want to sign you, let's talk numbers, etc.  but I'd be surprised if he is the guy fighting with an agent over 2m pounds in guaranteed money.  I could be very wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but that all sounds like the work of people below him.

 

all this brings up another great point, there's not a whole lot of transparency in regards to his position, no one really knows what his actual job duties are and what he does.  just what we hear in press conferences and the occasional interview.  which is down to moshiri.

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Quinn31 said:

 

????  whats your point

[StevO]

3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

not a problem ste, always good to have a conversation on here.  you're right, what is the point?  I'm against the DOF position.  Walsh is a terrible negotiator (if he does) because we've had the reports of all the failed transfers and targets that have gone elsewhere or stayed home.  Koeman said the striker with Valencia situation they were on what 4th or 5th option?  you think ed woodward is on 4th or 5th option?  is txiti at city on 4th or 5th option?  no, because they get their man.  hell even west ham has pipped us to a couple of signings, ogbonna, the RB from leeds (or was it LB), etc.  we lost out on giroud, surely throw more money, private jet, do something to land your man, he went to Chelsea and happily sits on the bench there, he would have been a starter here.

 

my understanding of steve's job is recruitment, finding players that fit the managers style.  maybe I'm wrong but why would he be the guy negotiating personal terms?  he has a background in scouting, not contract law.  I think he's probably the intial contact with the agent we want to sign you, let's talk numbers, etc.  but I'd be surprised if he is the guy fighting with an agent over 2m pounds in guaranteed money.  I could be very wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but that all sounds like the work of people below him.

 

all this brings up another great point, there's not a whole lot of transparency in regards to his position, no one really knows what his actual job duties are and what he does.  just what we hear in press conferences and the occasional interview.  which is down to moshiri.

I agree with pretty much everything you say there Mark, but he isn’t the chief scout. Though his expertise is in finding players his role is now to run the playing side of the club, not just to find the players. He’s got a whole team below him for that. 

We’ll never know the inside and out of his role, I don’t think we ever should really as that’s all internal politics. 

Im very unhappy about how things are going, but until I know what his actual role is I’m finding it hard to throw the book at him. 

I know we’ve had lots of failed negotiations, but now we don’t know if they were him or Bill. 

Not trying to defend the guy, but not wanting to criticise him too much either as I don’t know enough about his role. 

[markjazzbassist]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

I agree with pretty much everything you say there Mark, but he isn’t the chief scout. Though his expertise is in finding players his role is now to run the playing side of the club, not just to find the players. He’s got a whole team below him for that. 

We’ll never know the inside and out of his role, I don’t think we ever should really as that’s all internal politics. 

Im very unhappy about how things are going, but until I know what his actual role is I’m finding it hard to throw the book at him. 

I know we’ve had lots of failed negotiations, but now we don’t know if they were him or Bill. 

Not trying to defend the guy, but not wanting to criticise him too much either as I don’t know enough about his role. 

Fair enough. Maybe I’m just spoiled because I started following the club under moyes and then had Martinez.  I rate both of them as having been net positive in both player acquisitions and spend/sale.  So for me, the whole DOF I was expecting mountains to move and maybe I shouldn’t have.  But it sure seems we had better recruitment in those regimes.  Time will tell with lookman DCL sandro onyekuru and the other youngsters he bought.

[Hafnia]

Listen.... We have 2 blokes at the helm in moshiri and kenwright. We don't know who is making the decisions but we know moshiri is using his money.

We have 2 blokes operating a player acuisition model.... We don't know how that's working either.

 

Until there is just one person doing each role we never will. 

[markjazzbassist]

Walsh transfers during his time here, would love to see others weight in on their verdicts.

 

Stek - 900k, Overall just OK.  not a starter (which he was purchased as) so not good in that respect, but good as a backup and price was cheap.

Williams - 12m, just OK.  Great last year, not great this year.  price is a little steep for his age.

Schneiderlin - 20m, just OK.  Great last year, not great this year, price is ok.

Gana - 7m, GREAT signing.  Great price and player since he's been here, solid starter.

Bolasie - 26m, BUST.  Runs Hot and Cold, we had the same player in 6m Mirallas, i see little difference (and i really wanted to like the guy).

Lookman - 8m, PROMISING.  Still young but shows class and talent.  Price is pretty high though for a League 1 player.

Valencia - Loan, BUST.  More bad games than good ones.

DCL - 1.6m, PROMISING.  Similar to Lookman but at least he was cheap.

 

Pickford - 25m, GREAT signing.  Still young but has been very solid and is a definite upgrade at GK.

Keane - 25m, BUST so far.  He's still got time for me to grow into a better player, but at his price he needs to be better than he's playing.

Mangala - Loan, BUST.  Didn't look great when he did play.

Martina - Free, BUST.  Not really much to say here that hasn't been said. 

Gylfi - 45m, just OK.  He was playing great and really came into it by the time of the injury, but sadly this is about transfers, and the fee brings it down to OK.

Klaassen - 24m, BUST.  Not even a bench or role player at that large of a hit fee wise.  

Vlasic - 10m, PROMISING.  Still young but shows class and talent, the most of the 3 youngsters Walsh has signed, he looks the best so far.

Walcott - 20m, GREAT signing.  I wasn't his biggest fan before he came here but he adds a lot in attack (finally a winger that can cross) and works hard.  Fair market price.

Rooney - Free, GREAT signing.  In the first half of the campaign he was the only reason we weren't relegation fodder.  Good with the kids and marketing.  

Tosun - 20m, GREAT signing.  Works hard, can score with head or feet, humble person.  Still early but his goals have given us vital points.

 

6 Busts, 4 Great, 3 Promising, 4 Ok.  

Overall - As you can see there are really only 3 "diamond in the rough" players that he's bought (lookman, dcl, vlasic) which is supposed to be what he's known for.  The others are all costing a good deal of money.  Overall i'd say he looks to have done worse than Moyes and Martinez were doing, and i'm disappointed in the lack of diamonds in the rough he's supposed to specialize in.

[gary]

Watching Rooney Tosun abd Walcott playupfront just feels so good . I wish we had signed better midfielders to support them . But we can build a team around these three players and siggy next season . 

[plaidharper]

On 3/20/2018 at 16:52, markjazzbassist said:

Overall - As you can see there are really only 3 "diamond in the rough" players that he's bought (lookman, dcl, vlasic) which is supposed to be what he's known for.  The others are all costing a good deal of money.  Overall i'd say he looks to have done worse than Moyes and Martinez were doing, and i'm disappointed in the lack of diamonds in the rough he's supposed to specialize in.

Think I would agree with you Mark.  Would be interesting to see how many of those signings were really Walsh signings and how many were Koeman or Big Sam or other things.

So check this out (also note I am keeping Mark's rating, some I agree with and other not):

Would assume Stek, Cuco, Klaassen were Koeman and that Cenk, Walcott were Big Sam. Rooney had to be Bill or just Everton in general. Vlasic seemed to be a reaction from getting torn apart in Europa.

With those taken out it makes it: 4 Busts (Keane, Mangala, Bolasie, Valencia),  3 Ok (Siggy, Williams, Morgan), 2 Promising (DCL, Lookman), and 2 Great (Pickford, Gana)

Looking at the line above all the iffy transfers were "proven" EPL talent (ie played numerous games at EPL clubs) and most his decent transfers were younger / or lesser known (minus Pickford as everyone new of his ability).  Originally when he came in, I was also under the impression that he was good at uncovering gems. Doesn't look that like that is his focus any more for some reason.

Plus if Unsworth had any helping hand in Lookman and DCL then it looks even worse for Walsh. 

 

 

[pete0]

38 minutes ago, plaidharper said:

.

Plus if Unsworth had any helping hand in Lookman and DCL then it looks even worse for Walsh. 

 

 

Unsworth got praised for DCL, was involved with Sheffield out something can't quite remember.

Walsh has been a massive dud. Failed from the off not standing up against Koeman to sign Mahrez instead of Sigurdssen, would have showed Koeman and his agent that we had more nous rather than taken for a ride. Then there's Michael Keane... 

[markjazzbassist]

great points @plaidharper and @pete0.  if you take out the supposed transfers influenced by others he really falls on his face.

[Hafnia]

Does no one see the bigger issue here? 

"This player was that fellas choice, i reckon that player was that fellas choice .... absolute farce."

The DOF should be a top quality scout who presents his findings to the manager.... the manager from there makes his choice.   Ultimately it falls on the manager.

The DOF should be judged by the options he finds and presents. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Does no one see the bigger issue here? 
"This player was that fellas choice, i reckon that player was that fellas choice .... absolute farce."
The DOF should be a top quality scout who presents his findings to the manager.... the manager from there makes his choice.   Ultimately it falls on the manager.
The DOF should be judged by the options he finds and presents. 

You’re describing the remit of a chief scout not a director of football

[Hafnia]

11 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

You’re describing the remit of a chief scout not a director of football

 

Yep... let's be honest his role has effectively become a chief scout with a stronger voice.  Does a DOF really work?  

For me the role goes too much into the remit of a manager.  I can understand the DOF overseeing youth development and aspects of player recruitment but not to the level of "look what I've bought you..."

[Shukes]

The DOF role is the manager. You hear a lot from continental managers, like Conte “ I don’t manage the club, I’m the coach”.

The idea of the DOF is to take a lot of the management of the club, including running a scouting team etc, and leave the Coach to.... well coach.

Its an English thing the manager.

[Matt]

Don't agree that Keane or Klaassen are busts, despite their poor performances. I'll judge them next season.

Bolasie unfortunately lived up to the over-priced MOTM moment player I was afraid he was. Shame really, I was hoping he'd prove to be more, and he's a really nice guy. Just isn'tt good enough.

Valencia as a loan was ok. When he came on as a sub, he often had a postive impact. Not good enough to keep on, for sure, but he did the job that was required at the time. 

[markjazzbassist]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

Don't agree that Keane or Klaassen are busts, despite their poor performances. I'll judge them next season.

Bolasie unfortunately lived up to the over-priced MOTM moment player I was afraid he was. Shame really, I was hoping he'd prove to be more, and he's a really nice guy. Just isn'ttt good enough.

Valencia as a loan was ok. When he came on as a sub, he often had a postive impact. Not good enough to keep on, for sure, but he did the job that was required at the time. 

i'm not willing to give walsh another year to see if they come good, as is right now his scouting and transfers have been net negative, and that's not ok.  he needs to leave.