Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[StevO]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

I agree with most of what you say but if Gana was to go and no one came into replace him,  I would like to see Davies start he would complement Gomes better than Schneiderlin who would ideally be cover Gomes not Gana. 

I like the idea in theory. In reality I think we would get over run in midfield. 

[Finn balor]

Besic to fulham £5 mill, McCarthy £10 plus and Morgan £10 maybe more? Delph for £8 mill if gana goes we need another or is it going to be Gomes and Delph ?

[pete0]

33 minutes ago, StevO said:

They aren’t though. There is one number 10 and two others playing centrally with two different tactical approaches to their play. 

Fernandinho, Dier and Busquets. The ones you stated about all teams having a ball winner. Kante is the closest in having the same role as Gana, in winning the ball back from CM, but even he does a lot than just disrupt play. I don't know any team that is happy for a centre mid to do as little as Gana going forward. Looking at the players in his position in all the other teams they all do more. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I like the idea in theory. In reality I think we would get over run in midfield. 

Well if reports by 3 or 4 sources are correct it could be Gomes and Delph which isn’t far off Gomes and Davies, and nothing like Schneiderlin and Gomes. 

I personally think Delph would give us a lot more than Gana hope this happens. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Fernandinho, Dier and Busquets. The ones you stated about all teams having a ball winner. Kante is the closest in having the same role as Gana, in winning the ball back from CM, but even he does a lot than just disrupt play. I don't know any team that is happy for a centre mid to do as little as Gana going forward. Looking at the players in his position in all the other teams they all do more. 

But most teams have a player in midfield who’s job isn’t based around going forward. That’s Gomes’s job. Two players can play the same position differently. So your issue isn’t with Gana, your issue is what Marco expects from him. 

[Haiku]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

I don't know any team that is happy for a centre mid to do as little as Gana going forward.

That sounds hypocritical considering he scored the other day the only goal which qualifies Senegal for the semi-final. 

[StevO]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I see Gomes as the the DM as the role he currently plays with Gana who last season became the CM who was generally forward of Gomes, you could play Schneiderlin as DM and Gomes as CM but I feel that would detract from Gomes game who likes to receive the ball from the back and have the whole game in front of him with his vision he gets us going, that’s why I would prefer him to play with Davies than Schneiderlin. 

Gomes isn’t a DM. He’s just a central midfielder. His strength is having players in front of him, so he will sit deep. 

Gana is the DM, but the manager tells him to press high up the pitch. 

Just because Gomes will sit the deeper of the two doesn’t make him defensive, it’s just making the most of both of these players skill sets. 

If Marco asked Davies’s or Schneiderlin to play instead of Gana, he may ask them to carry out the same tasks. They may or may not carry them out to the same level as Gana.

The same as I said to Pete, your issue is with the managers tactics. Not the players involved. 

[pete0]

48 minutes ago, StevO said:

But most teams have a player in midfield who’s job isn’t based around going forward. That’s Gomes’s job. Two players can play the same position differently. So your issue isn’t with Gana, your issue is what Marco expects from him. 

Most teams have a DM who mops up. How many have a centre mid doing it? Not many, I can't think of one, closest would be Kante but that's not his main role, Jorginho mops up for them. The main reason there isn't many is the risk is far too high as it leaves gaps in midfield. The only players who should be under instruction to press regardless are the attackers as any where else is too risky. 

Gana's job is to link defence with attack he's the centre mid. After the Cardiff game when Gana carried the ball forward and thread a pass through for an assist. Silva said that's his job. 

45 minutes ago, Haiku said:

That sounds hypocritical considering he scored the other day the only goal which qualifies Senegal for the semi-final. 

Against Benin. Ranked 88 in the world and only got one player valued over a million. 

https://www.transfermarkt.com/benin/startseite/verein/3955

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, StevO said:

Gomes isn’t a DM. He’s just a central midfielder. His strength is having players in front of him, so he will sit deep. 

Gana is the DM, but the manager tells him to press high up the pitch. 

Just because Gomes will sit the deeper of the two doesn’t make him defensive, it’s just making the most of both of these players skill sets. 

If Marco asked Davies’s or Schneiderlin to play instead of Gana, he may ask them to carry out the same tasks. They may or may not carry them out to the same level as Gana.

The same as I said to Pete, your issue is with the managers tactics. Not the players involved. 

Well if Gana goes and Delph arrives it will be interesting to see see how they play and indeed who plays. 

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, StevO said:

Gomes isn’t a DM. He’s just a central midfielder. His strength is having players in front of him, so he will sit deep. 

Gana is the DM, but the manager tells him to press high up the pitch. 

Just because Gomes will sit the deeper of the two doesn’t make him defensive, it’s just making the most of both of these players skill sets. 

If Marco asked Davies’s or Schneiderlin to play instead of Gana, he may ask them to carry out the same tasks. They may or may not carry them out to the same level as Gana.

The same as I said to Pete, your issue is with the managers tactics. Not the players involved. 

Gomes plays in the most defensive position of the 2 although he’s not by your definition a complete DM and I do agree, he is still by position offering more in protection to the back 4 than Gana did last season.

 I’m not really a stats man so don’t go searching for that sort of evidence to try to prove my point I prefer to to let what I see in front of me make me come to a decision, and what I saw from Gana last season wasn’t  the position of a DM it was a CM who was being told to by his manager to make his impact on the game in the oppositions half with the ball. So that tells me the intention of how Silva wants to play in MF, I believe he wants players who can give a bit of everything Gomes does that that’s why he is so well received by the fans and you don’t need to look at stats to know he’s a good player it’s plain to see, but in truth that can not be said of Gana his stats were constantly being produced two seasons ago as vindication that he was good you shouldn’t need to do that if a player is good we would see that for ourselves, I would take a punt that his stats weren’t as impressive last season as the season before, because they weren’t being posted to prove he was the best in the league at his role anymore, when you consider his role in the team last season was CM with the license to get forward to assist and score a few, he would probably be in the mid to lower half on table for that position I’m guessing. 

Just think were we could be if he had the ability to score 6-7 goals and assist 6-7 goals in his new position, others do I’m sure. 

I think we will let him go without to much of a fight in the knowledge that there are a lot better out there than him. 

[StevO]

Gana is still the one offering the protection, but he’s asked to do it higher up the pitch, to try to win it back before it gets as far as Gomes. It’s just different from what we are used to seeing from our defence minded midfielders. We are used to seeing Carsley or Fellaini sitting behind the midfield, this is just more proactive rather than reactive. But again, this is about the managers tactics and not the ability of the players involved.

I really don’t think Marco is looking for Gana to make the impact in the opposition half with the ball, more without it. He needs Gomes to make the impact with the ball, after Gana wins it back. 

Stats don’t do it for me either, they only show you a small part of any play. Pienaar had rubbish stats, but was vital to how we played. 

I really don’t see many players who’s main job is winning the ball back scoring many goals though, I really don’t. If you know any I’m happy to take that.

i don’t think many people in football will agree there are so many better out there, and if there are would they want to come to Everton?

[Romey 1878]

The suggestion of Davies being anything more than a squad player is making me feel ill. This is supposed to be a summer of improvement!

[Finn balor]

Yeah I agree, I don’t want to see him wandering around too much next season 

[Palfy]

50 minutes ago, StevO said:

really don’t think Marco is looking for Gana to make the impact in the opposition half with the ball, more without it. He needs Gomes to make the impact with the ball, after Gana wins it back. 

I do believe Silva expressed a different view to that on what he expects from Gana in his new central role, from his comments after the Cardiff game. 

I do sympathise with Silva after telling the world that that was what he wants to see more of him doing, running with the ball at defences and defence splitting passes, of which we’ve seen very little of since that game until the other day against Benin. 

I don’t remember him saying his job was to win the ball back and then pass it back to Gomes. 

[Finn balor]

I really like gana but if he goes and we are able to get a player who has a good engine but offers more going forward then happy days 

[Shukes]

22 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I do believe Silva expressed a different view to that on what he expects from Gana in his new central role, from his comments after the Cardiff game. 

I do sympathise with Silva after telling the world that that was what he wants to see more of him doing, running with the ball at defences and defence splitting passes, of which we’ve seen very little of since that game until the other day against Benin. 

I don’t remember him saying his job was to win the ball back and then pass it back to Gomes. 

I think you read a snippet mate, he was actually praising Gana for that, just saying he would like to see it more. 

He then went on to continually say that he will do everything g to keep Gana.

Haha you drew me in again, well done twat!

[StevO]

42 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I do believe Silva expressed a different view to that on what he expects from Gana in his new central role, from his comments after the Cardiff game. 

I do sympathise with Silva after telling the world that that was what he wants to see more of him doing, running with the ball at defences and defence splitting passes, of which we’ve seen very little of since that game until the other day against Benin. 

I don’t remember him saying his job was to win the ball back and then pass it back to Gomes. 

After a game against relegation elect he expected more going forward, but it’s clear to see what he expects of him just from watching us play. We don’t need Marco to tell us he expects Gana to win the ball back and pass it to Gomes, it’s a clear plan that happens every game. 

[Matt]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

Gana is still the one offering the protection, but he’s asked to do it higher up the pitch, to try to win it back before it gets as far as Gomes. It’s just different from what we are used to seeing from our defence minded midfielders. We are used to seeing Carsley or Fellaini sitting behind the midfield, this is just more proactive rather than reactive. But again, this is about the managers tactics and not the ability of the players involved.

I really don’t think Marco is looking for Gana to make the impact in the opposition half with the ball, more without it. He needs Gomes to make the impact with the ball, after Gana wins it back. 

Stats don’t do it for me either, they only show you a small part of any play. Pienaar had rubbish stats, but was vital to how we played. 

I really don’t see many players who’s main job is winning the ball back scoring many goals though, I really don’t. If you know any I’m happy to take that.

i don’t think many people in football will agree there are so many better out there, and if there are would they want to come to Everton?

Exactly. Defensive doesn’t mean sit in front of the defence. In his case, it’s defend from the front. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Exactly. Defensive doesn’t mean sit in front of the defence. In his case, it’s defend from the front. 

Love you Matt

[Matt]

31 minutes ago, StevO said:

Love you Matt

[Bailey]

Fwiw I dont think either player is tasked with being more attacking or defensive than the other. They both sit alongside eachother and play as a pair. Both able to get forward and both expected to do the defensive work. All the stats you will find in respect of average position will show that. Its also the same when Schneiderlin played. 

I also dont agree about Gana being asked to close more aggressively. Its happened for every manager he has played under, its just his natural tendancy. 

Its not like this is Fernandino for City with two clear players ahead of him. You couldnt have one pressing and the other not as you could easily play around it, and sometimes that is the problem! You could have the two pressing and one mopping up behind but not one side closing at the other not.

[pete0]

On 13/07/2019 at 10:27, StevO said:

Gana is still the one offering the protection, but he’s asked to do it higher up the pitch, to try to win it back before it gets as far as Gomes. It’s just different from what we are used to seeing from our defence minded midfielders. We are used to seeing Carsley or Fellaini sitting behind the midfield, this is just more proactive rather than reactive. But again, this is about the managers tactics and not the ability of the players involved.

What other team does it this way? 

Proactive to me would mean he's anticipating the play, whereas reactive would be acting on the situation on hand. Gana falls in the second, he see the ball go left he chases it left. 

[pete0]

On 13/07/2019 at 18:50, Bailey said:

Its not like this is Fernandino for City with two clear players ahead of him. You couldnt have one pressing and the other not as you could easily play around it, and sometimes that is the problem! You could have the two pressing and one mopping up behind but not one side closing at the other not.

With the set up they should be more similar to how we were with Arteta and Fellaini, or Barry and McCarthy. One dictates the play and the other box-to-box. That's how most 4411 tend to play. It's sort of how I see Gana play, he's the one further forward now often. It was clearer when Schneiderlin was the one sitting. 

[MikeO]

He's in the AFCON final, good luck to him and Senegal; be nice to have two players reporting back with medals to show off, might inspire the team to go nab one for themselves.

[StevO]

5 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What other team does it this way? 

Proactive to me would mean he's anticipating the play, whereas reactive would be acting on the situation on hand. Gana falls in the second, he see the ball go left he chases it left. 

Do other teams need to do it for it to be effective? I don’t want enough of other teams to see who deploys their midfield in the same way. But as I’ve said many times, you issue is with the tactic, not the player carrying out his instructions.

its proactive because it’s not sitting back and waiting until they get into our half before closing down. It’s chasing and pressing players in their own half, it’s not just one player doing it. The wingers do it, the forward does it, Gylfi and Gana do it, and the other five players sit back waiting for the break whilst holding position. 

If the ball goes left, the whole team shift left. That’s just basic team shape. 

[StevO]

4 minutes ago, pete0 said:

With the set up they should be more similar to how we were with Arteta and Fellaini, or Barry and McCarthy. One dictates the play and the other box-to-box. That's how most 4411 tend to play. It's sort of how I see Gana play, he's the one further forward now often. It was clearer when Schneiderlin was the one sitting. 

We don’t play 4411 though, ask Marco and he will tell you he plays 433.

i don’t know why you would want them to play like another team does, or like we played maybe 8 years ago. The game evolves, coaches come up with new patterns and new tactics. 

Schneilderlins skill set is to sit back and mop up, he’s very very good at it. But it’s not what Marco is asking for. He’s asking for a disrupter to play along side his play maker in Gomes who will dictate the midfield. 

[pete0]

4 minutes ago, StevO said:

Do other teams need to do it for it to be effective? I don’t want enough of other teams to see who deploys their midfield in the same way. But as I’ve said many times, you issue is with the tactic, not the player carrying out his instructions.

its proactive because it’s not sitting back and waiting until they get into our half before closing down. It’s chasing and pressing players in their own half, it’s not just one player doing it. The wingers do it, the forward does it, Gylfi and Gana do it, and the other five players sit back waiting for the break whilst holding position. 

If the ball goes left, the whole team shift left. That’s just basic team shape. 

For me it's more plausible that Gana isn't doing a good enough job, than Ronald Koeman inventing a new position and the next two managers to stick with it. 

Proactive: (of a person or action) creating or controlling a situation rather than just responding to it after it has happened

I don't see how Gana fits this. He sees the ball go one way, he goes for it. He's reacting to where the ball is. Proactive for me would be him anticipating where the ball is going and to start heading in the direction before it actually happens. 

[StevO]

1 minute ago, pete0 said:

For me it's more plausible that Gana isn't doing a good enough job, than Ronald Koeman inventing a new position and the next two managers to stick with it. 

Proactive: (of a person or action) creating or controlling a situation rather than just responding to it after it has happened

I don't see how Gana fits this. He sees the ball go one way, he goes for it. He's reacting to where the ball is. Proactive for me would be him anticipating where the ball is going and to start heading in the direction before it actually happens. 

Koeman hasn’t done anything with him, Marco is the one making the high press a big part of his game plan. 

You can choose to see it as reactive if you like, I think pressing a player in his own half before he makes a forward play is being proactive. If he waited until the ball was played into our half and then react to the man in front of him I’d agree with you, but they don’t. Five men press high and early, before the play is made, that’s proactive. So from your definition, the “after it happened” if the ball being played into our half. That’s what they are proactively stopping.

If he anticipated the ball going left, and closed that man down and then it’s played right, how long would it take before you hand him out to dry for not anticipating the other way? 

[pete0]

13 minutes ago, StevO said:

We don’t play 4411 though, ask Marco and he will tell you he plays 433.

i don’t know why you would want them to play like another team does, or like we played maybe 8 years ago. The game evolves, coaches come up with new patterns and new tactics. 

Schneilderlins skill set is to sit back and mop up, he’s very very good at it. But it’s not what Marco is asking for. He’s asking for a disrupter to play along side his play maker in Gomes who will dictate the midfield. 

The positional set up is almost identical. Sigurdssen is the closest to the striker. He's not sitting next to Gomes and Gana. Likewise the wingers get forward but no more than they did under Martinez (Koemans never had the pace too). Only major difference is the pace of play. Martinez and Koeman were both slower in the build up and not as one dimensional down the wing. 

The OS isn't showing the average positions for me but I'm sure it'll look more like 4411, from memory Sig is close and sometimes further forward than the striker, and Gana slightly a head of Gomes. Often with Digne close to Bernard much like the Pienaar Baines tandem. 

[Shukes]

19 minutes ago, pete0 said:

For me it's more plausible that Gana isn't doing a good enough job, than Ronald Koeman inventing a new position and the next two managers to stick with it. 

Proactive: (of a person or action) creating or controlling a situation rather than just responding to it after it has happened

I don't see how Gana fits this. He sees the ball go one way, he goes for it. He's reacting to where the ball is. Proactive for me would be him anticipating where the ball is going and to start heading in the direction before it actually happens. 

Interceptions.

No words needed now is there.