Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[Shukes]

Excellent post Elston.

Yes I think there is no doubt we can replace Gana with a more productive player. Up until this point he has fit a hole that needed filling.

If were to take the next step, we need to replace many players with upgrades, Gana being one of them. At the moment Gana is the link up player, and while doing it effectively, he doesn’t have that final third play that we all long for. 

Now we have Gomes, do we actually need a destroyer in midfield? Because Gomes is our deep sitting playmaker. We could sacrifice Ganas position for a more tracking player.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.caughtoffside.com/2019/07/11/video-merseyside-duo-mane-gueye-combine-brilliantly-to-fire-senegal-into-afcon-semi-finals/

for anyone who can’t access Mikes link 

[Finn balor]

Nobody at that stadium 

[Wiggytop]

If only he could do that on a regular basis! Great goal  Hope he brings that form back to Goodison.

[plaidharper]

10 hours ago, Elston Gunnn said:

I’m not a big Gana fan, but his stats surely are often impressive, and obviously he’s highly regarded by most.  Some months back we got into a discussion of his play in terms of risk-reward.  For whatever (biased? uninformed?) reasons, I have tended to notice his risky moves.  I’ve thought his great ability to disrupt opponents sometimes produces an unhelpful disruption to his own team.  In this sense, although I demur from signing on to all of their Gana-deconstruction, I’ve thought pete0 and Palfy make sensible points about his sometimes being out of position, and about the dangerous consequences of his unremitting chance-taking.

I’m not here to try to convince anyone that Gana is grossly overrated.  But looking forward, I do wonder whether Gana is the right “fit” with Gomes, who is, to me, a wonderful player.  Is it possible that Schneiderlin — or preferably a more talented player “like” him — would be a better pairing with Gomes?  (If Gana is sold, I guess this is a moot point.)  Gomes is box-to-box, right?  In a 4-2-3-1 setup, he’s nominally a DM.  But he’s no DM; he’s a “controlling CM.”  We want him consistently moving forward, holding off defenders with his strength and ball-control, producing pinpoint, attacking passes.  Gomes probably isn’t a particularly good defender at all.

My view is that Gomes should be given free rein to initiate and control Everton’s offensive movement.  In this — my — overriding scenario, he needs a partner to “sit” back, no or very little box-to-box stuff, in front of the CHs, especially when either Coleman or Digne is going forward.  Gana’s no “sitter.”  Indeed, he’s not just box-to-box, but touchline-to-touchline, byline-to-byline, a chaotic, if often exhilarating, disruptor.  But he’s incapable of staying back near the CHs.  That’s not who he is.  He can’t do what I think straightforwardly needs doing.

Although Gana is a truly exciting individual player, I suspect Everton’s producing exciting team-football depends more on Gomes’s controlling play, Richarlison’s maturing consistency, the Bernard-Digne partnership, Sigurdsson’s sneaky goals, and a new striker.  Schneiderlin is certainly not the player Gana is, but he or an upgrade at Sitter-DM might produce a better flow, a different, more effective offensive excitement.

We want goals.  Gomes is the key to getting the ball to players in places where they can produce shots.  Is Gana the ideal partner for Gomes?  I am skeptical.  No player can do what Gana does.  But maybe what Gana does isn’t what Everton needs doing.

I readily concede, finally, that Gomes’s wanting to play for Everton, contrasted with Gana’s somewhat dispiriting if easily understandable desire for CL football, furthers my enthusiasm for building our top-4 near-future project around Gomes.

 

Good post indeed Elston.  Think I am beginning to finally understand where pete and palfy are coming from.  Maybe it was all the statistical talk / claims he was the worst player ever in a blue shirt that was distracting me but when you put it in the context of the future and the fact Gomes has now signed a long term deal, I am starting to understand.  I am still a Gana fan and do not personally agree but I will admit that I now see the point they are trying to make.

Now if we could only keep the Gana talk in the Gana thread... tee hee.

[StevO]

I get the comparisons between Gana and Schneiderlin. But they both have their strengths, similar but different. Schneiderlin is very good at sitting back and reading where the game is going to flow. Gana is better chasing the ball down and pressing high up. 

Both very capable in their roles, I’m sure each other’s style could be used very well against different opposition. 

Im a big fan of both of them, just please never let me see them on the pitch at the same time. Unless we are 1-0 up at Anfield with two minutes to go. 

[Bailey]

10 hours ago, Shukes said:

Excellent post Elston.

Yes I think there is no doubt we can replace Gana with a more productive player. Up until this point he has fit a hole that needed filling.

If were to take the next step, we need to replace many players with upgrades, Gana being one of them. At the moment Gana is the link up player, and while doing it effectively, he doesn’t have that final third play that we all long for. 

Now we have Gomes, do we actually need a destroyer in midfield? Because Gomes is our deep sitting playmaker. We could sacrifice Ganas position for a more tracking player.

I think we do. Personally I prefer Gomes breaking forward supporting the attack as opposed to do the graftier work of tracking back, filling gaps. He is a midfielder so he has to be able to do both but I dont think anyone would deny that he is MUCH better at the former than the latter. 

IMO we need a combination of Gana and Schneiderlin (or Barry if I was being greedy). We need someone who can read those defensive moves whilst having the acceleration and agility to cover the ground required. 

[Sibdane]

https://www.90min.com/posts/6409404-psg-make-fresh-30m-bid-for-everton-s-idrissa-gueye-as-transfer-saga-starts-up-again?view_source=categories_page&view_medium=[google-news]

[MikeO]

19 minutes ago, sibdane said:

https://www.90min.com/posts/6409404-psg-make-fresh-30m-bid-for-everton-s-idrissa-gueye-as-transfer-saga-starts-up-again?view_source=categories_page&view_medium=[google-news]

€40m we should answer the phone (and use it as a starting point for negotiation), if Senegal win the AFCON up it to €50m.

[Finn balor]

€30 is way to low for him. He is in the prime of his career. You have to be looking at £45-£50 million and I give you one word for how I came up with that valuation. FRED. I know gana will want to go and maybe there is an agreement already with the player if the right price is met. Maybe 30 mill euros with a hidden gem thrown in that marcel likes 

[barryj]

If we sell (and I’m happy at the right price) we need to ensure we have his replacement signed up beforehand. 

[Elston Gunnn]

1 hour ago, barryj said:

If we sell (and I’m happy at the right price) we need to ensure we have his replacement signed up beforehand. 

As I posted above, the sensible thing might be to replace Gana with a player more like Schneiderlin than Gana.  My premise is that Gomes is a/the key to our attack as a controlling CM.  It’s at least conceivable to me that Schneiderlin, a sitting DM, is a better pairing with Gomes than is Gana, an everywhere disruptor.  I wouldn’t be satisfied to depend on Schneiderlin for an entire season, so if we sell Gana, we need to buy his replacement, but not a Gana-like-for-like replacement.  Rather, a sitter, to allow Gomes to originate our attack from midfield.   If Gomes does become the consistent midfield fulcrum of our attack, he probably can’t play 90 minutes every match.  Even less likely if he has to defend a lot.  Hence a dependable sitter is also crucial.

So, Schneiderlin and a similar new player as sitting DMs, either to pair with Gomes.  Davies as backup for Gomes and Sigurdsson.

Need first-choice striker, Gana (sitter) replacement, Zouma or replacement, Lookman replacement (though I prefer that he stay and get the occasional start).

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, barryj said:

If we sell (and I’m happy at the right price) we need to ensure we have his replacement signed up beforehand. 

A like for like or another CM with different attributes, because if you consider the one you’ve got is the right fit why would you be happy to sell. 

I’d be happy to sell and find a different type of player who can keep the ball better so we’re not so focused on winning the ball back but more on what we can do better when we’re in possession. 

[StevO]

33 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

As I posted above, the sensible thing might be to replace Gana with a player more like Schneiderlin than Gana.  My premise is that Gomes is a/the key to our attack as a controlling CM.  It’s at least conceivable to me that Schneiderlin, a sitting DM, is a better pairing with Gomes than is Gana, an everywhere disruptor.  I wouldn’t be satisfied to depend on Schneiderlin for an entire season, so if we sell Gana, we need to buy his replacement, but not a Gana-like-for-like replacement.  Rather, a sitter, to allow Gomes to originate our attack from midfield.   If Gomes does become the consistent midfield fulcrum of our attack, he probably can’t play 90 minutes every match.  Even less likely if he has to defend a lot.  Hence a dependable sitter is also crucial.

So, Schneiderlin and a similar new player as sitting DMs, either to pair with Gomes.  Davies as backup for Gomes and Sigurdsson.

Need first-choice striker, Gana (sitter) replacement, Zouma or replacement, Lookman replacement (though I prefer that he stay and get the occasional start).

Do you really want to change how our midfield functions? Personally I think Gylfi, Gana and Gomes compliment each other in defence and attack, with Marco’s tactics. Three different skill sets. 

Gomes looked really good with a player like Gana next to him, I’d want to keep that compliment to his game. Gomes’s biggest strengths to me were his vision and passing ability, both with players in front of him. In a similar way to how Xavi Alonso used to dictate from deep. 

[StevO]

18 minutes ago, Palfy said:

A like for like or another CM with different attributes, because if you consider the one you’ve got is the right fit why would you be happy to sell. 

I’d be happy to sell and find a different type of player who can keep the ball better so we’re not so focused on winning the ball back but more on what we can do better when we’re in possession. 

100% agree with the first paragraph (you knew I would haha)

if we were to bring in a midfielder to replace Gana who do you want to win the ball back? You’ve replaced him with someone good in possession, but Gomes and Gylfi are good in possession, neither are great at winning the ball back. Even City who have about 95% of the ball (exaggeration) use Fernandinho to mop up. The game can’t be all about attacking. Barca have Busquets, Spurs have Dier, PSG are looking for a player like this, all the great teams have a defence minded player in midfield. 

I don’t doubt three ball players would be exciting, but there’s a reason pretty much all managers will have a ball winner in the middle too. Defence is just as important as attack, if it’s not Gana, we need someone in there to win the ball back.

[barryj]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

A like for like or another CM with different attributes, because if you consider the one you’ve got is the right fit why would you be happy to sell. 

I’d be happy to sell and find a different type of player who can keep the ball better so we’re not so focused on winning the ball back but more on what we can do better when we’re in possession. 

That’s the easiest question I’ve had to answer on here. Simple, because he wants to leave and everyone has their price no matter how good they are. He’s been the model pro and I’d hope that would continue but you never know. 

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

100% agree with the first paragraph (you knew I would haha)

if we were to bring in a midfielder to replace Gana who do you want to win the ball back? You’ve replaced him with someone good in possession, but Gomes and Gylfi are good in possession, neither are great at winning the ball back. Even City who have about 95% of the ball (exaggeration) use Fernandinho to mop up. The game can’t be all about attacking. Barca have Busquets, Spurs have Dier, PSG are looking for a player like this, all the great teams have a defence minded player in midfield. 

I don’t doubt three ball players would be exciting, but there’s a reason pretty much all managers will have a ball winner in the middle too. Defence is just as important as attack, if it’s not Gana, we need someone in there to win the ball back.

I would go for a Dacoure or a Viera type of player both are strong in the tackle yet are very composed and offer a lot more when in possession of the ball. 

Let’s be honest we never struggled winning the ball back before Gana was here, but what has been proven is that although we may statistically of had the best ball winner in the league for the odd season, in those seasons we also had some of the worst percentages of ball possession, because he loses the ball in equal measures. 

The best game I have ever seen him play for us was against Cardiff he was good no let’s be honest he was very good but he hasn’t repeated that since and what was good about that game for me was what he did with the ball how he carried it and his defence splitting passes, he for once became the complete all round midfielder that Silva had been looking  for, that’s why his praise for what he did that game was slightly overboard but I understand that he wanted him to believe that there was more to his game than just winning the ball back and being disruptive. 

But we hadn’t seen that side of his game after the Cardiff game until the game against Benin the other night not good enough for me I want that sort of performance on regular basis not once in a blue moon.

[Palfy]

10 hours ago, barryj said:

If we sell (and I’m happy at the right price) we need to ensure we have his replacement signed up beforehand. 

 

8 hours ago, Palfy said:

A like for like or another CM with different attributes, because if you consider the one you’ve got is the right fit why would you be happy to sell. 

I’d be happy to sell and find a different type of player who can keep the ball better so we’re not so focused on winning the ball back but more on what we can do better when we’re in possession. 

 

5 hours ago, barryj said:

That’s the easiest question I’ve had to answer on here. Simple, because he wants to leave and everyone has their price no matter how good they are. He’s been the model pro and I’d hope that would continue but you never know. 

Yes that was the easiest question you had to answer on here yet you didn’t answer it, the question was quite simple a like for like or something different if you were happy to sell, you told me why you were happy to sell thanks but I really  wanted to know what you wanted as a replacement. 

[Shukes]

Gomes has his best matches when taking game the ball from our defenders. He seems more at home back there. 

We need the box to box player to partner him. Selling Gana means we’re gping to have to step up in the market and in fine with that.

Watched Dacoure or whatever his name is haha a few times now, and he’s not the answer. Goes forward faster, but doesn’t do anything with it and isn’t anywhere near Ganas level at pressing. This is where we need to step up to the next level. 

We need to be looking to replace him with an improved player, or a young model that’s almost at his level, with potential to be better. Not sure who that player is, but I’m sure Brands has a few in mind.

[StevO]

8 hours ago, Palfy said:

I would go for a Dacoure or a Viera type of player both are strong in the tackle yet are very composed and offer a lot more when in possession of the ball. 

Let’s be honest we never struggled winning the ball back before Gana was here, but what has been proven is that although we may statistically of had the best ball winner in the league for the odd season, in those seasons we also had some of the worst percentages of ball possession, because he loses the ball in equal measures. 

The best game I have ever seen him play for us was against Cardiff he was good no let’s be honest he was very good but he hasn’t repeated that since and what was good about that game for me was what he did with the ball how he carried it and his defence splitting passes, he for once became the complete all round midfielder that Silva had been looking  for, that’s why his praise for what he did that game was slightly overboard but I understand that he wanted him to believe that there was more to his game than just winning the ball back and being disruptive. 

But we hadn’t seen that side of his game after the Cardiff game until the game against Benin the other night not good enough for me I want that sort of performance on regular basis not once in a blue moon.

I am a big fan of Dacoure to be honest, I think he would be great alongside Gomes if we got Gana. 

I don’t think our possession stats have been bad have they? Apart from that spell under Sam. 

I agree about how good he was against Cardiff, but they were a very poor team. It’s easier to stand out against poor sides. But he has been good against the better sides too, but his defensive qualities are needed more then. At home against the weaker sides it wouldn’t bother me if Davies played ahead of Gana, but it’s hard to drop him when he’s so important to Marcos tactics. 

[Elston Gunnn]

(Sorry, somehow lost content.)

 

[Bailey]

10 hours ago, Shukes said:

Gomes has his best matches when taking game the ball from our defenders. He seems more at home back there. 

We need the box to box player to partner him. Selling Gana means we’re gping to have to step up in the market and in fine with that.

Watched Dacoure or whatever his name is haha a few times now, and he’s not the answer. Goes forward faster, but doesn’t do anything with it and isn’t anywhere near Ganas level at pressing. This is where we need to step up to the next level. 

We need to be looking to replace him with an improved player, or a young model that’s almost at his level, with potential to be better. Not sure who that player is, but I’m sure Brands has a few in mind.

I think Gomes is best when he is the box to box player. He is as comfortable taking the ball of CBs as he is around the box. I think back to his Wolves goal and that is what I would like to see from him rather than sitting behind 2 others in midfield because time and time again he has shown that he doesnt have a defensive enough mindset. He is pretty rash in the tackle too. 

[pete0]

20 hours ago, StevO said:

100% agree with the first paragraph (you knew I would haha)

if we were to bring in a midfielder to replace Gana who do you want to win the ball back? You’ve replaced him with someone good in possession, but Gomes and Gylfi are good in possession, neither are great at winning the ball back. Even City who have about 95% of the ball (exaggeration) use Fernandinho to mop up. The game can’t be all about attacking. Barca have Busquets, Spurs have Dier, PSG are looking for a player like this, all the great teams have a defence minded player in midfield. 

I don’t doubt three ball players would be exciting, but there’s a reason pretty much all managers will have a ball winner in the middle too. Defence is just as important as attack, if it’s not Gana, we need someone in there to win the ball back.

All three of them are the DM, they sit read the play and then mop up. Gana doesn't do that. 

11 hours ago, Shukes said:

Gomes has his best matches when taking game the ball from our defenders. He seems more at home back there. 

We need the box to box player to partner him. Selling Gana means we’re gping to have to step up in the market and in fine with that.

Watched Dacoure or whatever his name is haha a few times now, and he’s not the answer. Goes forward faster, but doesn’t do anything with it and isn’t anywhere near Ganas level at pressing. This is where we need to step up to the next level. 

We need to be looking to replace him with an improved player, or a young model that’s almost at his level, with potential to be better. Not sure who that player is, but I’m sure Brands has a few in mind.

He might have just had a bad game. He's powerful, a leader, and comfortable on the ball with his biggest attribute driving the ball forward. Decent bang on him too. 5 goals and 7 assists last year. 

[Palfy]

24 minutes ago, pete0 said:

All three of them are the DM, they sit read the play and then mop up. Gana doesn't do that. 

He might have just had a bad game. He's powerful, a leader, and comfortable on the ball with his biggest attribute driving the ball forward. Decent bang on him too. 5 goals and 7 assists last year. 

That’s what we need, the most disappointing thing from last season was watching games where we weren’t turning good possession and situations into goals. 

[Elston Gunnn]

11 hours ago, Shukes said:

Gomes has his best matches when taking game the ball from our defenders. He seems more at home back there. 

We need the box to box player to partner him.

 

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I think Gomes is best when he is the box to box player. He is as comfortable taking the ball of CBs as he is around the box. I think back to his Wolves goal and that is what I would like to see from him rather than sitting behind 2 others in midfield because time and time again he has shown that he doesnt have a defensive enough mindset. He is pretty rash in the tackle too. 

 

21 hours ago, StevO said:

Do you really want to change how our midfield functions? Personally I think Gylfi, Gana and Gomes compliment each other in defence and attack, with Marco’s tactics. Three different skill sets. 

Gomes looked really good with a player like Gana next to him, I’d want to keep that compliment to his game. Gomes’s biggest strengths to me were his vision and passing ability, both with players in front of him. In a similar way to how Xavi Alonso used to dictate from deep. 

I agree with Shukes in one -- but only one -- specific sense that Gomes is "at home back there."  He is, as Baily says, comfortable receiving the ball from the back.  But his role -- seems clear it's the one Silva has given him -- is to pivot immediately and initiate offensive movement.  He's "most at home" not near the back but moving toward the opponent's goal.  So as StevO says, he begins by dictating from deep, but... he doesn't stay deep.  As a controlling CM, he dictates the offense in multiple ways: from deep, with long, pinpoint passes; by dribbling, sometimes pirouetting, fending off defenders; mid-and-short-range-passes to any of several attackers; even the occasional blast (more of which I expect him to attempt this next season).  He really is box-to-box.  I doubt he's a particularly good defender (nor do I think Silva expects him to be), which is why I think he needs to be paired not with a box-to-box twin, but with a full-on sitter, a real DM.

StevO rightly highlights Gomes's vision and passing ability, to which I'd add: strength to hold off defenders, on-ball balance, confident dribbling.  His considerable skills are offensive skills.  He needs a partner with a mainly defensive mindset, a hard player, a grafter.

That's the sort of player I'd hope we could get, if Gana goes.  I assume he will be sold and that we'll probably start the season with a Gomes-Schneiderlin pairing. 

[Shukes]

44 minutes ago, pete0 said:

All three of them are the DM, they sit read the play and then mop up. Gana doesn't do that. 

He might have just had a bad game. He's powerful, a leader, and comfortable on the ball with his biggest attribute driving the ball forward. Decent bang on him too. 5 goals and 7 assists last year. 

Could be, I only saw him a few times. He never looked anything above average when I saw him, but those stats suggest he is better than that. 

[Palfy]

12 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

 

 

I agree with Shukes in one -- but only one -- specific sense that Gomes is "at home back there."  He is, as Baily says, comfortable receiving the ball from the back.  But his role -- seems clear it's the one Silva has given him -- is to pivot immediately and initiate offensive movement.  He's "most at home" not near the back but moving toward the opponent's goal.  So as StevO says, he begins by dictating from deep, but... he doesn't stay deep.  As a controlling CM, he dictates the offense in multiple ways: from deep, with long, pinpoint passes; by dribbling, sometimes pirouetting, fending off defenders; mid-and-short-range-passes to any of several attackers; even the occasional blast (more of which I expect him to attempt this next season).  He really is box-to-box.  I doubt he's a particularly good defender (nor do I think Silva expects him to be), which is why I think he needs to be paired not with a box-to-box twin, but with a full-on sitter, a real DM.

StevO rightly highlights Gomes's vision and passing ability, to which I'd add: strength to hold off defenders, on-ball balance, confident dribbling.  His considerable skills are offensive skills.  He needs a partner with a mainly defensive mindset, a hard player, a grafter.

That's the sort of player I'd hope we could get, if Gana goes.  I assume he will be sold and that we'll probably start the season with a Gomes-Schneiderlin pairing. 

I agree with most of what you say but if Gana was to go and no one came into replace him,  I would like to see Davies start he would complement Gomes better than Schneiderlin who would ideally be cover Gomes not Gana. 

[Elston Gunnn]

5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree with most of what you say but if Gana was to go and no one came into replace him,  I would like to see Davies start he would complement Gomes better than Schneiderlin who would ideally be cover Gomes not Gana. 

We see this somewhat differently, I think.  The reason I see Schneiderlin as a better complement than Davies for Gomes is that I see Gomes and Davies both as box-to-box players.  I want a sitter to complement Gomes.  Schneiderlin is a sitter, right?  Maybe (1) Davies could be a sitter, or maybe (2) you and others prefer 2 box-to box players as a pairing.  Heck, do you and others see Schneiderlin as a box-to-box player?  I've just rarely seen him exhibit any offensive firepower.  He seems content to sit.

Ok, just assuming Gana leaves and is not replaced.....

I see Davies as a backup for Gomes (box-to-box type player), maybe for Sigurdsson (a sort of false 9), and maybe for Schneiderlin.   (I vaguely remember Schneiderlin played decently late last season?)  I can see Davies as both offensive and defensive-minded, depending on need.  He seems our most likely several-position midfield utility player.

I wouldn't be totally upset if Gana goes and is not replaced, but I'm pretty sure most others would be upset at that prospect.  But jeez, if we lost Gana, McCarthy, and Besic, then it's Gomes and one of Schneiderlin, Davies, maybe Baningime?  I sure hope Gomes has an injury-free season!

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

We see this somewhat differently, I think.  The reason I see Schneiderlin as a better complement than Davies for Gomes is that I see Gomes and Davies both as box-to-box players.  I want a sitter to complement Gomes.  Schneiderlin is a sitter, right?  Maybe (1) Davies could be a sitter, or maybe (2) you and others prefer 2 box-to box players as a pairing.  Heck, do you and others see Schneiderlin as a box-to-box player?  I've just rarely seen him exhibit any offensive firepower.  He seems content to sit.

Ok, just assuming Gana leaves and is not replaced.....

I see Davies as a backup for Gomes (box-to-box type player), maybe for Sigurdsson (a sort of false 9), and maybe for Schneiderlin.   (I vaguely remember Schneiderlin played decently late last season?)  I can see Davies as both offensive and defensive-minded, depending on need.  He seems our most likely several-position midfield utility player.

I wouldn't be totally upset if Gana goes and is not replaced, but I'm pretty sure most others would be upset at that prospect.  But jeez, if we lost Gana, McCarthy, and Besic, then it's Gomes and one of Schneiderlin, Davies, maybe Baningime?  I sure hope Gomes has an injury-free season!

I see Gomes as the the DM as the role he currently plays with Gana who last season became the CM who was generally forward of Gomes, you could play Schneiderlin as DM and Gomes as CM but I feel that would detract from Gomes game who likes to receive the ball from the back and have the whole game in front of him with his vision he gets us going, that’s why I would prefer him to play with Davies than Schneiderlin. 

[StevO]

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

All three of them are the DM, they sit read the play and then mop up. Gana doesn't do that. 

They aren’t though. There is one number 10 and two others playing centrally with two different tactical approaches to their play.