Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[aaron]

We all ignoring the fact he doesn't want to be here and handed in a transfer request with 2 days to go with no time to replace him then? Sound. Nobhead move that, he'd of known weeks ago PSG wanted him

[StevO]

Sell him, just so we can get rid of this thread. 

[aaron]

Just now, StevO said:

Sell him, just so we can get rid of this thread. 

Is it possible to like a post more than once?

[Wiggytop]

PSG Have just signed Leandro Paredes, maybe this is dead now?

[Romey 1878]

2 hours ago, aaron said:

We all ignoring the fact he doesn't want to be here and handed in a transfer request with 2 days to go with no time to replace him then? Sound. Nobhead move that, he'd of known weeks ago PSG wanted him

Everton have denied that there's been a transfer request.

[nyblue23]

12 hours ago, pete0 said:

I won't argue about my grammar because I know mine is shit, but fuck me if you're gonna be the one to comment on mine don't start with a "do math". Any how history of the Internet shows when someone comments on your grammar it's because they've lost an argument. 

No idea what your point is. Gana is the one constant outfield player. We lose with him and without him against the top 6. We never lose without him against the the rest. 

Horseshit statement? He gives away considerably more free kicks than the rest of the team, silly ones in dangerous areas being his speciality because he's wrong side of his man/rushes in and doesn't stay goalside. How exactly is that horse shit? 

Stats show he doesn't win possession. Winning a tackle is not the same as winning possession.

Amazingly I do get to make arguments as such by using logic. Logic being the goals we conceded were not through the middle, they weren't the fault of the player who stood in for Gana. Yet most games Gana gives away a clear opportunity through the middle so most likely he would've in those games. So I've used reasoning compared to your statement that it's bullshit conjecture, which ironically your statement is exactly that. 

Any how just did me some math. It's 13 games according to transfermarkt, my apologies if that's incorrect, however still no need for your tone and you've not exactly put anything to show it's more or justify your opinion. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/idrissa-gueye/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/126665/plus/0?saison=&verein=29&liga=&wettbewerb=GB1&pos=&trainer_id=

Tone? All I said was add. Seven league games plus six equals thirteen from the first two seasons, plus whatever he has missed this season: http://www.evertonfc.com/players/i/ig/idrissa-gana-gueye

How could I be “losing an argument” when you continue to regurgitate the same words with no factual or statistical basis, and you continue to distort our record without him while discounting differences in the makeup of the squad over two years, making conjectures that are not rooted in any sort of fact but in your own distorted reality?

Show the stats that demonstrate that he doesn’t win possession. He absolutely does, and often turns it into attack. He also makes countless tackles flying in from midfield at the edge of the box in order to break up dangerous opportunities while our CBs stand 7 yards back with their arms behind their backs in the box. Sometimes that results in giving away stupid free kicks, but it’s better than just allowing easy shots on goal, which our back line seems to love so much.

The problem is, Pete, that whenever you are presented with evidence, like the article that I posted, that your opinions are factually untrue, you double down on them, as you do when you say “he most likely would’ve in those games,” still a weak argument based on conjecture. And if you’re accusing me of conjecture, I honestly don’t believe that you know what that word means.

[pete0]

6 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

Tone? All I said was add. Seven league games plus six equals thirteen from the first two seasons, plus whatever he has missed this season: http://www.evertonfc.com/players/i/ig/idrissa-gana-gueye

How could I be “losing an argument” when you continue to regurgitate the same words with no factual or statistical basis, and you continue to distort our record without him while discounting differences in the makeup of the squad over two years, making conjectures that are not rooted in any sort of fact but in your own distorted reality?

Show the stats that demonstrate that he doesn’t win possession. He absolutely does, and often turns it into attack. He also makes countless tackles flying in from midfield at the edge of the box in order to break up dangerous opportunities while our CBs stand 7 yards back with their arms behind their backs in the box. Sometimes that results in giving away stupid free kicks, but it’s better than just allowing easy shots on goal, which our back line seems to love so much.

The problem is, Pete, that whenever you are presented with evidence, like the article that I posted, that your opinions are factually untrue, you double down on them, as you do when you say “he most likely would’ve in those games,” still a weak argument based on conjecture. And if you’re accusing me of conjecture, I honestly don’t believe that you know what that word means.

Still no idea where you get those figures from. As far as I can see he's missed 14: 5 (2017), 6 (2018), 2 (2019). 

Feel free to explain why. You've just put a whole paragraph and added nothing that explains otherwise. You disagree, fair enough. But if you're gonna be so miffed by my views at least expand on your own. Shit like you're wrong, I don't agree is just a baseless statement. 

Already answered all that numerous times in here. The tackle stats show him winning a tackle, they do not show that he's won possession. Someone put a link to his terrier stats the other day. He wins possession about 50% of the tackles. Which means the other 50% he'd have been better off not putting his foot in and rather than committing and leaving us exposed. 

What does the article explain as I'm pretty sure you mustn't have read it. I've explained clearly enough in my shit English, yet I'm struggling to even see what your argument is other than that I'm wrong because you say so, why do you say so. What are you basing your belief on? 

 

[Shukes]

How many has he missed this season and what we’re the results?

simple questions require simple answers, factual answers

[nyblue23]

1 minute ago, pete0 said:

Still no idea where you get those figures from. As far as I can see he's missed 14: 5 (2017), 6 (2018), 2 (2019). 

Feel free to explain why. You've just put a whole paragraph and added nothing that explains otherwise. You disagree, fair enough. But if you're gonna be so miffed by my views at least expand on your own. Shit like you're wrong, I don't agree is just a baseless statement. 

Already answered all that numerous times in here. The tackle stats show him winning a tackle, they do not show that he's won possession. Someone put a link to his terrier stats the other day. He wins possession about 50% of the tackles. Which means the other 50% he'd have been better off not putting his foot in and rather than committing and leaving us exposed. 

What does the article explain as I'm pretty sure you mustn't have read it. I've explained clearly enough in my shit English, yet I'm struggling to even see what your argument is other than that I'm wrong because you say so, why do you say so. What are you basing your belief on? 

 

League game appearances from his page on the Everton website, the link I just posted.

I already posted an analysis of our defensive record with and without him. The fact that he is leading the league in tackles is known to all on the forum. The fact that Silva calls him one of his most important players is further evidence that you’ve been making shit up over and over again (i.e. saying Silva wants to get rid and doesn’t rate him, only plays him because of lack of options). You can’t take what I’ve said about your own lack of evidence and turn it around and say I haven’t given you any, when I’m merely responding to the fact that you didn’t respond adequately to the evidence you were given. The circles you’re running are absolutely confounding.

A tackle won that doesn’t win possession is not by its own a useless tackle. Tackles break up play and fluidity and allow the rest of the defense to recover into better positions. It’s not a zerosum equation. A tackle that doesn’t win possession absolutely does not mean that the player was better off not tackling and does not automatically mean that the tackle left us exposed. A tackle can also be made while continuing to stay goalside. The leaps you are making are incredible. Additionally, 50% seems low and I can’t sort through the pages of shit that have been spewed here to bother finding that link, so again, burden of proof, as I can’t find that statistic anywhere on the internet, and judging by the fact that he also led the league in ball recoveries last season, it seems auspicious.

What the article states is self-evident if you read the article. We conceded 8 goals from open play in the two PL games we lost without Gana. Granted they were against very good sides, but we’ve played other very good sides and not given up an average of 4 goals per game in open play. The article effectively makes the argument that our defense from open play is actually better than average, and probably the best outside the top 6 if you take away the two games that Gana missed, and that is largely due to Gana’s ability to break up play. Our defense from set pieces is an entirely different question, and I’m sure you think Gana is worthless additionally because he’s not outjumping Keane and Mina to get his head on free kicks and corners.

 

[Newty82]

34 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Still no idea where you get those figures from. As far as I can see he's missed 14: 5 (2017), 6 (2018), 2 (2019). 

Has nobody else noticed this? Ironic with all this back and forth I'm right your wrong type stuff.

Cracked me up that.

[pete0]

13 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Has nobody else noticed this? Ironic with all this back and forth I'm right your wrong type stuff.

Cracked me up that.

I originally said 13 that's just a typo. But it can stay

[pete0]

27 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

League game appearances from his page on the Everton website, the link I just posted.

I still don't see where you're getting your numbers from.

I already posted an analysis of our defensive record with and without him. The fact that he is leading the league in tackles is known to all on the forum. The fact that Silva calls him one of his most important players is further evidence that you’ve been making shit up over and over again (i.e. saying Silva wants to get rid and doesn’t rate him, only plays him because of lack of options). You can’t take what I’ve said about your own lack of evidence and turn it around and say I haven’t given you any, when I’m merely responding to the fact that you didn’t respond adequately to the evidence you were given. The circles you’re running are absolutely confounding.

What was your analysis? I must have missed that post or was it simply the article (which was piss poor and I've explained clearly why). 

A tackle won that doesn’t win possession is not by its own a useless tackle. Tackles break up play and fluidity and allow the rest of the defense to recover into better positions. It’s not a zerosum equation. A tackle that doesn’t win possession absolutely does not mean that the player was better off not tackling and does not automatically mean that the tackle left us exposed. A tackle can also be made while continuing to stay goalside. The leaps you are making are incredible. Additionally, 50% seems low and I can’t sort through the pages of shit that have been spewed here to bother finding that link, so again, burden of proof, as I can’t find that statistic anywhere on the internet, and judging by the fact that he also led the league in ball recoveries last season, it seems auspicious.

Wasn't me who posted it. Why would I trawl through it because you can't be arsed. Point is tackling is not the be all and end all. Simple question, would the team be better off if Gana held position rather be so rash? His tackling is a double edged sword and it cuts us far too often. The risk simply isn'tt worth it. 

What the article states is self-evident if you read the article. We conceded 8 goals from open play in the two PL games we lost without Gana. Granted they were against very good sides, but we’ve played other very good sides and not given up an average of 4 goals per game in open play. The article effectively makes the argument that our defense from open play is actually better than average, and probably the best outside the top 6 if you take away the two games that Gana missed, and that is largely due to Gana’s ability to break up play. Our defense from set pieces is an entirely different question, and I’m sure you think Gana is worthless additionally because he’s not outjumping Keane and Mina to get his head on free kicks and corners.

Pure conjecture. Plus as I've already pointed out the goals weren't through the middle. Did you watch those matches? How would Gana have stopped any of those goals? Whoever wrote that article is looking purely at the stats and not the football. Stats are a tool in football and nothing more, you need to watch the matches to see the none tangibles that the stats don't show you. 

 

[Shukes]

Most ironic part of this thread is that if the players had half the heart and absolute refusal to accept defeat, that peteO and Palfy have, we wouldn’t be in this situation at all.

[nyblue23]

11 minutes ago, pete0 said:

 

OK, pete. You win because unlike you, I get tired of repeating myself. You still don’t know what conjecture means, though.

[seve]

Maybe bring Drinkwater in sitting at Chelsea doing nothing, ball winner,  good passer league winner, just a thought.

[aaron]

3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Everton have denied that there's been a transfer request.

Of course they have, weakens our position, we are holding out for a specific sum, that wont be reached if he hands one in.

[aaron]

9 minutes ago, seve said:

Maybe bring Drinkwater in sitting at Chelsea doing nothing, ball winner,  good passer league winner, just a thought.

Brands is already busy getting rid of shite at the club, he wont want to add to that!

[pete0]

15 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

OK, pete. You win because unlike you, I get tired of repeating myself. You still don’t know what conjecture means, though.

I've not won anything. I'm here baffled at to what your argument actually is. 

[nyblue23]

15 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I've not won anything. I'm here baffled at to what your argument actually is. 

The one I’ve stated multiple times with evidence? The one where we are a better defensive side with Gana?

[pete0]

2 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

The one I’ve stated multiple times with evidence? The one where we are a better defensive side with Gana?

What's the evidence? 13 games he missed we only got beat by top 6 teams. Why do we not lose against the rest of the league when we don't have him? Stats show when we play the rest we are more likely to get beat with him in the side than without him. 

[Sev]

10 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

£30m for a player his age is a good price but your missing the point, he is the only midfielder at the club capable of putting a tackle in, well apart from McCarthy but he would get injured in the process 

So if we sell we need a replacement in this window

 

I have seen Davies tackle. And also being very good at it and only when absolutely needed (it's Davies after all). But that was way back when there was a lot more confidence in the team. Things are certainly different now. If I wanted to buy a solid midfielder (more dm than m) I'd look in the German Bundesliga. I think you can get good material there for reasonable prices.

But I'm ready to fill in that positon. Just need my thick glasses to see the ball, some astma spray and a lot of doping.

[Sev]

9 hours ago, hafnia said:

We could sell him in the summer for the same price so it makes no sense to sell now.

If I was going to sell players I would be target selling the likes of Schneiderlein who should not be around the squad.   Plus any other players who don't give a shit in order to send a message out.

Schneiderlein is one of our worst buys indeed. Shame though, the lad looked promising at one point.

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, hafnia said:

We could sell him in the summer for the same price so it makes no sense to sell now.

If I was going to sell players I would be target selling the likes of Schneiderlein who should not be around the squad.   Plus any other players who don't give a shit in order to send a message out.

I agree with your sentiment Haf with the sale of players who don’t give a fuck, but you can’t hurt them or teach others a lesson by hitting them with a big stick, there millionaires and once that contacts signed your on a wing and prayer that they give their all. 

If it’s true that he has submitted a transfer request then he wants to go and not play for us anymore although Aidan said it doesn’t mean that I can’t see what else it could mean, for me no matter who the player is there done you’ve crossed the line to keep him would be unsettling to an already struggling team, I’d send to train with the U23s even if it didn’t go through he’s crossed the line so fuck him. 

If like Lookman he just spoke with the manager about the possibility but never made a official request then fair enough he’s discussed it been told he can’t go and accepts it I can accept that. 

[seve]

1 hour ago, aaron said:

Brands is already busy getting rid of shite at the club, he wont want to add to that!

League winner great passer workhorse, and commands the midfield, some shite i say. 

[Newty82]

It would be a shame to lose him as there are at least 10 players who we should lose before him...I forgot how much baggage we have in this squad.

But he's 29. If a good offer of £30 - £35mill comes in, fair play. So long as we can bring in a younger version of a player of similiar mould. Even better if we can do that for £7mill!!!

IF he has asked to go. Can't blame him. Probably last chance he'll get to play CL football and win cups.

Football's business. Every player has a price.

[Newty82]

19 minutes ago, seve said:

League winner great passer workhorse, and commands the midfield, some shite i say. 

Sorry but plenty of players win the PL. Doesn't automatically make them a viable option.

[Bailey]

28 minutes ago, seve said:

League winner great passer workhorse, and commands the midfield, some shite i say. 

Maybe a couple of years ago. Who knows how good he is now.

[AlbanyNYToffee]

Not in the 18 today. Is he off?

[nyblue23]

26 minutes ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

Not in the 18 today. Is he off?

Must be. Gutted, but at least this thread will go dead.

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

Must be. Gutted, but at least this thread will go dead.

Were find someone else to take over this thread mate life would be boring if we didn’t.