Moise Kean

[RuffRob]

Fuck me, strange transfer this - two years loan with an obligation to buy after the two years. Obviously Juventus (much the same as most continental teams) are as financially shackled as we are this season - just can't spend.  There are very few teams who have open cheque books this summer.

It not going to help our immediate finances this transfer window as much as we would like, as we will not be able to report the main fee through the books for a couple of years.

With loan fees we will have had, in the end we will have made a modest profit on a transfer than from our own point of view turned out a bit of a failure. Only problem is we kind of still have around £25M tied up that we can't spend on incoming players!!!

In a way, the loan fees are like interest payments for us effectively borrowing Juventus £25M for the next two years.

What it does demonstate to the powers that be is we are doing our best to get our house in order financially. 

[StevO]

But @RuffRob we will also buy players with spread payments so it is spendable. 

[RuffRob]

10 minutes ago, StevO said:

But @RuffRob we will also buy players with spread payments so it is spendable. 

only if we get players on loan and then say we will buy then with a proper transfer fee in two years time. So need the selling club to agree to this - and most will not. i.e we could loan players, but not buy them.

Why do you think Juventus are paying this way and not just buying him today? Juve don't have to put the 28M euros through their books as an expenditure for two year. Thus we can't put this income on to our books for two year. So as we don't have this money, we can't spend it - other than in a near identical way - most club want/need the money now not in two years time!!! 

We have had to accept this as its likely the best offer or only offer we have had on Moise Kean this summer. 

 

 

 

[Bill]

Have we done the right thing with this, what is he now 21 - 22. ?  I think there's a good player in there, we made the same mistake with moving Vlasic on too quickly.

[RuffRob]

2 minutes ago, Bill said:

Have we done the right thing with this, what is he now 21 - 22. ?  I think there's a good player in there, we made the same mistake with moving Vlasic on too quickly.

just like shares - players values can go down as well as up!! so a bit of a risk either way. 

He doesn't want to be here, no other/better offers, in 12months time he will then be going in to the final year of his contract. I think given the 'Kean' attitude, then one in the hand is worth two in the bush in his case. 

he might do wonders in Italy, but not sure he would do the same in England.

[RuffRob]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/marcel-brands-just-secured-one-21441168

sums it up quite well. 

 

[badaids]

Gutted this didn't work out.  Thought he was going to be a Goodison favorite, but he just never even got going here.  Good luck Moise.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, RuffRob said:

only if we get players on loan and then say we will buy then with a proper transfer fee in two years time. So need the selling club to agree to this - and most will not. i.e we could loan players, but not buy them.

Why do you think Juventus are paying this way and not just buying him today? Juve don't have to put the 28M euros through their books as an expenditure for two year. Thus we can't put this income on to our books for two year. So as we don't have this money, we can't spend it - other than in a near identical way - most club want/need the money now not in two years time!!! 

We have had to accept this as its likely the best offer or only offer we have had on Moise Kean this summer. 

We never buy players with the full amount paid up front. Most clubs don’t pay up front.

So we know we have payments due from Juve over the next three or four years, so we can use those incoming payments for deals that we set up. 
 

We will probably still owe Juve some money from buying Kean two years ago. 
 

Spreading payments like that suits selling clubs as well as buying clubs as they have guaranteed money coming in. 
 

Juve with this deal will have to declare the loan fees now and then when they buy him in two seasons they can declare him as an asset and spread the 28m amortised over the term of his permanent contract. This all just helps them spread it out longer. 
 

If we buy a player for £30m now and agree to pay it over three years we only need the agreed first payment to handover. But in the accounts (relevant to FFP) the £30m would be spread over the length of the contract. So if it’s a four year deal then £7.5m per year. 

[StevO]

30 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/marcel-brands-just-secured-one-21441168

sums it up quite well. 

 

Year one €3m

Year two €4m

year three €9.3m

year four €9.3m

year five €9.3m

potential bonuses €3m

Thats a great deal!

[Matt]

Just now, StevO said:

Year one €3m

Year two €4m

year three €9.3m

year four €9.3m

year five €9.3m

potential bonuses €3m

Thats a great deal!

Can't be. Brands is inept. 

[Sibdane]

21 minutes ago, StevO said:

Year one €3m

Year two €4m

year three €9.3m

year four €9.3m

year five €9.3m

potential bonuses €3m

Thats a great deal!

Indeed!

 

[RuffRob]

31 minutes ago, StevO said:

We never buy players with the full amount paid up front. Most clubs don’t pay up front.

So we know we have payments due from Juve over the next three or four years, so we can use those incoming payments for deals that we set up. 
 

We will probably still owe Juve some money from buying Kean two years ago. 
 

Spreading payments like that suits selling clubs as well as buying clubs as they have guaranteed money coming in. 
 

Juve with this deal will have to declare the loan fees now and then when they buy him in two seasons they can declare him as an asset and spread the 28m amortised over the term of his permanent contract. This all just helps them spread it out longer. 
 

If we buy a player for £30m now and agree to pay it over three years we only need the agreed first payment to handover. But in the accounts (relevant to FFP) the £30m would be spread over the length of the contract. So if it’s a four year deal then £7.5m per year. 

you are getting two things mixed up.

I know all about spreading payment and amortisation. This will all start in a couple of years time when we start to get the transfer fee. We can't spend this agreed transfer fee now, (or put in the accounts as cash), not more that we can put our season 23/24 TV money or gates recipes through this years books. We know it's is coming - but we can't put it through this seasons account can we?  it Has to wait to the 23/24 accounts. 

On the accounts Moise kean is STILL an Everton player, and are currently only loaning to Juventus. We now have a loan fee for this years accounts. This years loan fee of 3M euros is all that can be put in this seasons accounts. 

Why do you think this is a two year loan rather than juve just spreading a 38M Euro fee over 5 year contract? 

Not a penny of the 28M can help us out with this problem season finances wise, only the 3M euro loan fee. 

 

 

 

[Matt]

Just now, RuffRob said:

you are getting two things mixed up.

I know all about spreading payment and amortisation. This will all start in a couple of years time when we start to get the transfer fee. We can't spend this agreed transfer fee now, (or put in the accounts as cash), not more that we can put our season 23/24 TV money or gates recipes through this years books. We know it's is coming - but we can't put it through this seasons account can we?  it Has to wait to the 23/24 accounts. 

On the accounts Moise kean is STILL an Everton player, and are currently only loaning to Juventus. We now have a loan fee for this years accounts. This years loan fee of 3M euros is all that can be put in this seasons accounts. 

Why do you think this is a two year loan rather than juve just spreading a 38M Euro fee over 5 year contract? 

Not a penny of the 28M can help us out with this problem season finances wise, only the 3M euro loan fee. 

 

 

 

TV payments are a bad example, if we go down then no, we aren't getting them on the books. This is a contractual obligation regardless of external factors, and Steve is exactly right in what he wrote; we have payments incoming. Don't know why you decided to spilt between transfer fee and loan fee. 

[StevO]

4 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

you are getting two things mixed up.

I know all about spreading payment and amortisation. This will all start in a couple of years time when we start to get the transfer fee. We can't spend this agreed transfer fee now, (or put in the accounts as cash), not more that we can put our season 23/24 TV money or gates recipes through this years books. We know it's is coming - but we can't put it through this seasons account can we?  it Has to wait to the 23/24 accounts. 

On the accounts Moise kean is STILL an Everton player, and are currently only loaning to Juventus. We now have a loan fee for this years accounts. This years loan fee of 3M euros is all that can be put in this seasons accounts. 

Why do you think this is a two year loan rather than juve just spreading a 38M Euro fee over 5 year contract? 

Not a penny of the 28M can help us out with this problem season finances wise, only the 3M euro loan fee. 

 

 

 

But we won’t be paying up front for any players, so we don’t need the money up front now. But we know it’s coming so we can plan for that in our current spending. That’s my point. 

[RuffRob]

We are currently sailing very close to the wind the Premier Leagues remit of 'sustainability and profitability'. Due to the pandemic a bit of averaging is going to be allowed over two season to get within the remit (on top of a COVID loss adjustment that will be afforded to all teams). Given our horrendous loss in the last lot of account, the next set HAVE to bring the two year average down - or we could get penalised (what we don't know as nobody has broken these rules yet - but we are very close). The £28M transfer fee payable in two years time does diddle squat to this seasons accounts - which are key.

 

[RuffRob]

12 minutes ago, StevO said:

But we won’t be paying up front for any players, so we don’t need the money up front now. But we know it’s coming so we can plan for that in our current spending. That’s my point. 

we have got no fucking money to spend this financial cycle and selling Kean in two years time doesn't change that. His loan fee is all that can be counted towards this year finances - However, his initial transfer fee will be amortisised on our books already - so he has a cost to us this season less his loan fee. We are making fuck all yet. 

we can't yet go out and buy another £30M player, as we will not be able to balance the accounts as needed THIS financial cycle. 

we will be ahead of the game come 23/24, but not today. we can plan for future spending, but this only has minimal impact on current spending. 

 

 

[London Blue]

We dont know if guaranteed future income from this transfer counts now.

[markjazzbassist]

good job brands, small profit, but profit nonetheless.  we paid 27.5m euro for him, we make the money on the loan fee.  he won't hit the accelerators because like i said they are lofty goals (pun intended) and non likely to be hit.  it's not the big profit we were led to believe we'd get as he was hot property at one time, but we didn't lose money.

[RuffRob]

47 minutes ago, Matt said:

TV payments are a bad example, if we go down then no, we aren't getting them on the books. This is a contractual obligation regardless of external factors, and Steve is exactly right in what he wrote; we have payments incoming. Don't know why you decided to spilt between transfer fee and loan fee. 

Argument is about when you can put things through the accounts and thus spend against them. This is want FFP etc is about - meeting accounting rules. 

There is notable difference in loan and transfer. Financially, it would be far far more beneficial for us to have transfer Kean today for £38M than it has been to loan him for two years and then get a fee for two seasons and then sell him in two years time. It would have made a significant difference to this years accounts. Which are the crux of our problem at the moment.  Maybe the difference in potentially being able to purchase a £30M player over a £10M player this window. 

On our balance sheet will still hold Kean as our player and is thus still a financial liability over the next two seasons (the spreading of transfer fee payments you talk about - they have not gone away), even though a loan fee will cover most this liability. 

[Shukes]

Kean is still ours and counts as an asset. We have loaned out his registration for two years.

This means we still keep the asset, while also making a fee to loan him out. I would have thought this is a bit of a double bonus for us? 
But I’m no financial expert, I buy hot sauce from the supermarket…. Because it has a cool label

[StevO]

1 hour ago, RuffRob said:

we have got no fucking money to spend this financial cycle and selling Kean in two years time doesn't change that. His loan fee is all that can be counted towards this year finances - However, his initial transfer fee will be amortisised on our books already - so he has a cost to us this season less his loan fee. We are making fuck all yet. 

we can't yet go out and buy another £30M player, as we will not be able to balance the accounts as needed THIS financial cycle. 

we will be ahead of the game come 23/24, but not today. we can plan for future spending, but this only has minimal impact on current spending. 

If we buy a player for £30m today we don’t actually spend £30m today, we would probably pay somewhere between £5-10m. We can afford to put that into this years accounts. 
Walcott, Bolasie, Bernard and Besic all coming off the wage bill and being replaced only with Townsend and Grey gives us some wiggle room.

Relax a little Rob, you’re going to have a heart attack mate. 

[StevO]

4 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I buy hot sauce from the supermarket…. Because it has a cool label

Try Amazon. I got a lovely ghost pepper and ginger a couple of weeks back.

[Bailey]

4 hours ago, RuffRob said:

you are getting two things mixed up.

I know all about spreading payment and amortisation. This will all start in a couple of years time when we start to get the transfer fee. We can't spend this agreed transfer fee now, (or put in the accounts as cash), not more that we can put our season 23/24 TV money or gates recipes through this years books. We know it's is coming - but we can't put it through this seasons account can we?  it Has to wait to the 23/24 accounts. 

On the accounts Moise kean is STILL an Everton player, and are currently only loaning to Juventus. We now have a loan fee for this years accounts. This years loan fee of 3M euros is all that can be put in this seasons accounts. 

Why do you think this is a two year loan rather than juve just spreading a 38M Euro fee over 5 year contract? 

Not a penny of the 28M can help us out with this problem season finances wise, only the 3M euro loan fee. 

 

The other point to take into account on this, which StevO has mentioned, is that we probably still owe Juve some of the original transfer money. That can now effectivelt be wiped off the books too as well as his likely £100k a week wages. 

Potentially that is £5mil in wages for this season, £3mil fee and few more million on payments owed to Juve. This means we have £10mil to spend on player fee and wages for a replacement. If that is Rondon, it will be zero fee and probably around £50k a week wages (£2.5mil pa), saving us £7.5mil on the books and a more effective player. 

 

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, Shukes said:

Kean is still ours and counts as an asset. We have loaned out his registration for two years.

This means we still keep the asset, while also making a fee to loan him out. I would have thought this is a bit of a double bonus for us? 
But I’m no financial expert, I buy hot sauce from the supermarket…. Because it has a cool label

And put your red wine in the fridge you must be right

[RuffRob]

 

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

The other point to take into account on this, which StevO has mentioned, is that we probably still owe Juve some of the original transfer money. That can now effectivelt be wiped off the books too as well as his likely £100k a week wages. 

Potentially that is £5mil in wages for this season, £3mil fee and few more million on payments owed to Juve. This means we have £10mil to spend on player fee and wages for a replacement. If that is Rondon, it will be zero fee and probably around £50k a week wages (£2.5mil pa), saving us £7.5mil on the books and a more effective player. 

 

You can't just effectively wipe any figures off the books as we don't effectively 'sell' Kean for another two years. Kean is still an Everton player (he is just out on loan) and the fee we paid for him will continue to be accounted for through amortization for the final two years of his contract with us. 

Lets say we paid £28M for him on a four years contract. So his purchase fee goes through our accounts as £7M a year over his the term of his contract (plus wages). This is already on our books, we can't just write it off, until a transfer fee comes through the door.

When we submit our next set of accounts in summer next year Kean's cost on the accounts will be £7M - £3M (loan fee), so £4M burden (based on the assumption Juve cover his wages penny for penny and I believe Kean is on around the £35K-£40K mark and nowhere near £100K). 

This season we save £3M (loan fee) and his wages (which I would estimate closer to £2M). Even though there is a contract in place where Juve promise to buy him for £28M in two year time - this means nothing in this years annual accounts, we get to wipe nothing else off just yet. This sale will only be of benefit in the 23/24 accounts, but it will be a massive benefit in those year as we are still having to 'paying off' Kean's original transfer fee through amortization within this and the year afters financial accounts. In 23/24 it is all profit as Kean will have a net balance of zero on our account in that year. 

We either use amortization in our accounting or we don't, you can't have it both ways - which some of you are doing in your accounting. 

I think Rondon will want more wages as a free transfer and/or modest signing on fee - so think will cost more than the  £2.5M you are suggesting. There will not be much change in my eyes from the £5M we might have saves on Kean's loan. I think if there is £1M saved this financial year we will be doing well.

Unfortunately this Kean pay day will not really hit the all important accounts until 23/24 and it will be a very health hit as all Kean's purchase cost will no longer be on the books by them. It does not help us much this year though.

So as much as some say otherwise there is an important difference between as outright sale and loan. 

 

 

 

[Bailey]

22 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

 

You can't just effectively wipe any figures off the books as we don't effectively 'sell' Kean for another two years. Kean is still an Everton player (he is just out on loan) and the fee we paid for him will continue to be accounted for through amortization for the final two years of his contract with us. 

Lets say we paid £28M for him on a four years contract. So his purchase fee goes through our accounts as £7M a year over his the term of his contract (plus wages). This is already on our books, we can't just write it off, until a transfer fee comes through the door.

When we submit our next set of accounts in summer next year Kean's cost on the accounts will be £7M - £3M (loan fee), so £4M burden (based on the assumption Juve cover his wages penny for penny and I believe Kean is on around the £35K-£40K mark and nowhere near £100K). 

This season we save £3M (loan fee) and his wages (which I would estimate closer to £2M). Even though there is a contract in place where Juve promise to buy him for £28M in two year time - this means nothing in this years annual accounts, we get to wipe nothing else off just yet. This sale will only be of benefit in the 23/24 accounts, but it will be a massive benefit in those year as we are still having to 'paying off' Kean's original transfer fee through amortization within this and the year afters financial accounts. In 23/24 it is all profit as Kean will have a net balance of zero on our account in that year. 

We either use amortization in our accounting or we don't, you can't have it both ways - which some of you are doing in your accounting. 

I think Rondon will want more wages as a free transfer and/or modest signing on fee - so think will cost more than the  £2.5M you are suggesting. There will not be much change in my eyes from the £5M we might have saves on Kean's loan. I think if there is £1M saved this financial year we will be doing well.

Unfortunately this Kean pay day will not really hit the all important accounts until 23/24 and it will be a very health hit as all Kean's purchase cost will no longer be on the books by them. It does not help us much this year though.

So as much as some say otherwise there is an important difference between as outright sale and loan. 

 

I agree there is a difference between the loan and the sale, which is why I didn't allow much of an increase between the wages/loan fee and the money this frees up. For all we know, we may have even paid all fees owed because I imagine Juve will have wanted payment early as a result of their financial situation.

The FFP regulations also apply over a range of seasons. We won't just be looking at this years accounts during this window, we will also be looking at future windows so even some releasing of funds will allow us some wiggle room over that period. It does all depend on where we do stand with FFP which no-one really knows! 

As for wages, I would be surprised if the percentage difference between Kean and Rondon wasn't the same as my OP. I might have over-estimated Kean's wages as I expected him to be on more coming from Juve but I cannot see someone like Rondon who is coming from obscurity at the age of 31 to be getting the same type of wage as someone that was scoring goals for one of Europes elite. 

Overall, it will free up some funds however it will not be a lot and as you say, it may end up just being enough to bring in Rondon.

[RuffRob]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I agree there is a difference between the loan and the sale, which is why I didn't allow much of an increase between the wages/loan fee and the money this frees up. For all we know, we may have even paid all fees owed because I imagine Juve will have wanted payment early as a result of their financial situation.

The FFP regulations also apply over a range of seasons. We won't just be looking at this years accounts during this window, we will also be looking at future windows so even some releasing of funds will allow us some wiggle room over that period. It does all depend on where we do stand with FFP which no-one really knows! 

It not so much about payment its about how they are accounted for in the books to meet FFP etc. You might pay up in year one, but you can spread the cost over a players contact within the accounts. i.e you pay £30M upfront  but you still spread the cost in the accounts over say 5 years of a players contract (£6M a year) So in year one up can say we spend £6M within the accounts, where as you actually pay out £30M. You obviously still need a funding pot to pay - Moshiri in our case. The funding pot and how you pay or your liquidity (A upfront lump some, 2 instalments, 3 instalments and so on) is different to amortization of the fee you paid for a player and which is presented in the accounts are two very different things. Our liquidity is good, as Moshiri is happily putting money in. Our problem is we are not 'sustainable or profitable rule' under premiership financial rules, which is slightly different to FFP. 

Like I have said no club has ever broke the Premier League 'Sustainability and Profitability rule' we are extremely close to being the first club to do so (we broke it last year, but got a COVID get out of jail pass), they are instead going to allow us (an other premiership teams) to average last year with this year  - so we have to get our shit together financially this accounting year. We could be given fines, transfer bans or points deductions. So I would rather see us have a lean year in order to avoid being the first club punished under this rule.

Its simply the former years spending coming back to haunt us. 

[Romey 1878]

https://www.teamtalk.com/everton/moise-kean-brush-off-psg-interest-stern-warning-juventus-transfer-cost

[Goodison Glory]

6 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

https://www.teamtalk.com/everton/moise-kean-brush-off-psg-interest-stern-warning-juventus-transfer-cost

That article says it's 6M + 2.5M is that true...I thought we had been holding out for much more?

[Palfy]

37 minutes ago, Goodison Glory said:

That article says it's 6M + 2.5M is that true...I thought we had been holding out for much more?

I’ll take that it’s looking more like we get nothing because he doesn’t meet the conditions stipulated. We need another striker