Manchester United (Home) Saturday November 7th

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

Where did you get that from? Would be interested to have a look because I imagine there were others. We don't get a lot of ball into DCL at all at the moment. 

All over twitter

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

All over twitter

I wouldn’t be quoting the platform that allows Thump to claim he’s won...

[Hafnia]

Just now, Matt said:

I wouldn’t be quoting the platform that allows Thump to claim he’s won...

I think the initial sources whoscored. One of the other Everton sites quoted it.

[pete0]

We've gone from our best start in decades to:

8 shots on target in our last 3 games.

First time we've lost 3 in a row in 12 years.

 

[Formby]

21 minutes ago, pete0 said:

First time we've lost 3 in a row in 12 years.

 

We lost 3 in a row last year (Nov/Dec 2019).

[pete0]

14 minutes ago, Formby said:

We lost 3 in a row last year (Nov/Dec 2019).

Just googled it. I got it mixed up. First time Ancelotti has lost three in a row. 

[MikeO]

44 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Just googled it. I got it mixed up. First time Ancelotti has lost three in a row. 

Where does the twelve years fit in then?

[Haiku]

1 minute ago, MikeO said:

Where does the twelve years fit in then?

I think he meant 12 years of Ancelotti's career as a manager.

[pete0]

5 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Where does the twelve years fit in then?

 

3 minutes ago, Haiku said:

I think he meant 12 years of Ancelotti's career as a manager.

This. Although I got that wrong as well. Been 14 years. Last time was with AC Milan.

[Bailey]

Just watched their goals back and read Carlo's match comments.

 

Carlo talked about the failure of the system and wanting to get the players on the training ground. I'm not quite sure how he will do that in the international break if he couldn't in the last week? Anyway, its interesting watching the goals back because they really sum up our performance. We didn't really lay a glove on Utd when they attacked. Their passing and movement was slick but it wasn't undefendable.

These are the highlights I am watching:

 

The first goal starts at around 0.41 seconds. The first point to note is that we have 11 players even with or behind the ball but only one of them isn't watching the ball (Keane). Furthermore only one of them is really tight to someone and that is Holgate on Martial. Fernandes, their most dangerous player is the player in most space.

Their second most dangerous player is Rashford and he gets a one-two from Mata. James stands 5 yards off Rashford and Doucoure lets Mata, who isnt exactly quick, run off him. This leaves Coleman in a 2 v 1 against Mata and Shaw. Allan starts to react, Doucoure tries to make amends but Mata is past him. Coleman gets dragged first inside to cover Mata and then outside when the ball goes to Shaw., Allan drops into the traditional RB slot. Fernandes is still free as a bird.

Coleman has the chance to get to Shaw but he doesn't. Siggy makes an overreacting run (albeit well intentioned) to get in front of Mata but what that does is it leaves more space for Fernandes. Our 3 central midfielders are within 5 yards of each other. The effective back 4 are then up against a man each. I paused the position they are in as the ball comes in and don't think you would look at it as a terrible position, its more than the midfield is drawn into a very small area and Bernard is then dragged into the middle instead of covering Wan Bissaka who is the man Digne is eyeing. 

A lot was said about Keane and Holgate, including by me, but this starts from a lack of pressure on the ball (in particular James / Coleman) and poor positioning and decision making (Doucoure and Siggy). Once the ball is played, its very hard for either Keane or Holgate to really do anything about it. They would have to be stood well out of the defensive shape which would create other problems.

The second goal is very similar. No pressure on Fred until its too late by Siggy and Rashford is given the same space Fernandes was by Keane for the first goal. I wasn't sure if Allan was out of position to start with but he has to stay that side to cover the space that Wan-Bissaka or McTominay can move into. Holgate is well out of position but we don't see why and Digne isn't on screen however presumably he is marking someone.

Instead of going into Rashford and even clattering him, Keane drops off and leaves Rashford to Allan. That is potentially a really poor play but we can't see what is on our left as there is a lot of space and knowing Keane he was probably scared to get too tight, being done and allow Rashford through 1 v 1. As the move develops there appears to be no-one attacking down our left and Digne isn't covering anyone. James is lazy again in tracking the run leaving Coleman 2 v 1 again. Coleman can't get close enough and for what wasn't the first time, he showed Fernandes onto his strong foot whilst being 5 yards off him, and Holgate and Digne are still recovering from being so far out of position in the first instance that they can't get back and cover Fernandes.

Its good passing and movement to create both goals but we gave them the space and opportunity to make those passes and move into the space. I think if Keane gets to Rashford to start with, that second goal isn't scored. Saying that he would hope that the rest of the side could do their jobs which several fail to do (James, Coleman, Holgate).

[pete0]

First one is all Keane. Mata and Fernandes are both unmarked, Sig notices the danger and marks Mata leaving Fernandes to Keane who is watching so should reposition himself to deal with the danger but does nothing. Unacceptable defending at this level.

I'd expect questions to be asked why Allan left Fernandes in the first place but his run seems to be intentional to go mark the space near the touch. Not watched enough of United but I'd assume that was a tactical decision to stop them coming across the six yard box. 

Second is a cracking ball, no qualms with not being able to defend that. Main issue is the play before it, how much space Rashford has when he first receives the ball. Either the whole back line is too deep, or Doucoure and Allan have switched off. 

Third goal does Digne play him onside? But kitchen sink time caught on the counter wouldn't worry too much about conceding that one.

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

First one is all Keane. Mata and Fernandes are both unmarked, Sig notices the danger and marks Mata leaving Fernandes to Keane who is watching so should reposition himself to deal with the danger but does nothing. Unacceptable defending at this level.

I'd expect questions to be asked why Allan left Fernandes in the first place but his run seems to be intentional to go mark the space near the touch. Not watched enough of United but I'd assume that was a tactical decision to stop them coming across the six yard box. 

Second is a cracking ball, no qualms with not being able to defend that. Main issue is the play before it, how much space Rashford has when he first receives the ball. Either the whole back line is too deep, or Doucoure and Allan have switched off. 

Third goal does Digne play him onside? But kitchen sink time caught on the counter wouldn't worry too much about conceding that one.

I dont agree about the first goal. If Keane steps out the line it creates more problems. It doesnt happen and shouldn't happen. I don't think there is more the back line can do without going all over the place. You might see it at Leeds but you won't see that anywhere else.

Sig goes to mark Mata but he doesn't need to, especially not to mark him on the "wrong side". He is trying to intercept a pass but that ignores the problems we have behind him. That is typical of an attacking player in a deeper position. Doucoure looks to have that angle covered in any event. 

For the second, they were definitely too deep. The space between midfield and defence was too big. It's generally Allan's space but he looks like he has to cover across because of what is happening on other side of the pitch especially with Holgate and Digne out of position. It must be Keane that steps in but again, I can see why he drops off even if I don't think he should have. I'd rather he clattered him down and gave away a free kick from a fair way out. 

[Palfy]

The first goal was poor defending on the part of Holgate and Keane, they have left  far to much space between each other, Keane has his back to Holgate and can't see the huge space between them, Holgate can see the chasm between them but doesn't react to the danger, he has no option but to go towards Keane and close the space that Fernandez is moving into that is the immediate danger not Martial, he has to leave Martial and deal with the immediate danger he can not use the fact that he was marking Martial, his duty is to deal with the most immediate threat which is the space that Fernandez was able to ghost into unopposed. 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I dont agree about the first goal. If Keane steps out the line it creates more problems. It doesnt happen and shouldn't happen. I don't think there is more the back line can do without going all over the place. You might see it at Leeds but you won't see that anywhere else.

Sig goes to mark Mata but he doesn't need to, especially not to mark him on the "wrong side". He is trying to intercept a pass but that ignores the problems we have behind him. That is typical of an attacking player in a deeper position. Doucoure looks to have that angle covered in any event. 

For the second, they were definitely too deep. The space between midfield and defence was too big. It's generally Allan's space but he looks like he has to cover across because of what is happening on other side of the pitch especially with Holgate and Digne out of position. It must be Keane that steps in but again, I can see why he drops off even if I don't think he should have. I'd rather he clattered him down and gave away a free kick from a fair way out. 

At 46-48 seconds he should shift back a yard and up a little to close the gap. He's seen him, he's had almost a full three seconds and just doesn't nullify the danger. Rewatching it I'm willing him to move into the space. The worse part is he's seen him so he should know he needs to close that gap. Couple of steps across and a baby step forward and we'd not end up conceding. (Worrying thing is he's caught under the ball, which seems to happen a lot).

Sigurdsson is in panic mode but Mata is the right choice as Keane should be able to deal with Fernandez. Agree he's ran the wrong way round (not got goal side) but ultimately he's blocked the pathway. 

For the second I think Keane is too far away to do anything, if he rushed out he's he'd be leaving a massive hall that could get exposed by a simply one two. I'd blame the players as a whole for not sticking the system (assuming we had one).

[pete0]

11 minutes ago, Palfy said:

The first goal was poor defending on the part of Holgate and Keane, they have left  far to much space between each other, Keane has his back to Holgate and can't see the huge space between them, Holgate can see the chasm between them but doesn't react to the danger, he has no option but to go towards Keane and close the space that Fernandez is moving into that is the immediate danger not Martial, he has to leave Martial and deal with the immediate danger he can not use the fact that he was marking Martial, his duty is to deal with the most immediate threat which is the space that Fernandez was able to ghost into unopposed. 

Keane looks at Fernandes he just doesn't act. Holgate should be shouting at him to come across but looking at the replay Sig has already shouted him (he points to Fernandes and Mata before going to mata, so assume he's made them aware of the free man).

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Keane looks at Fernandes he just doesn't act. Holgate should be shouting at him to come across but looking at the replay Sig has already shouted him (he points to Fernandes and Mata before going to mata, so assume he's made them aware of the free man).

But all that still doesn't excuse Holgate from not leaving Martial and closing the door on Fernandez, he has to move to cover the danger, and by not doing so it has resulted in an unchallenged goal it couldn't get any worse than that. 

[pete0]

 

 

5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

But all that still doesn't excuse Holgate from not leaving Martial and closing the door on Fernandez, he has to move to cover the danger, and by not doing so it has resulted in an unchallenged goal it couldn't get any worse than that. 

No reason for holgate to abandon his man. Keane has 3 seconds to move over a metre. 

 

[Palfy]

3 minutes ago, pete0 said:

 

 

No reason for holgate to abandon his man. Keane has 3 seconds to move over a metre. 

 

So Fernandez scoring isn't a reason, he can see everything unfolding in front of him he can see Keane isn't responding to the danger behind him so he has no option but to leave his man and try to stop Fernandez, because if he doesn't the result is what we witnessed. 

[pete0]

7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

So Fernandez scoring isn't a reason, he can see everything unfolding in front of him he can see Keane isn't responding to the danger behind him so he has no option but to leave his man and try to stop Fernandez, because if he doesn't the result is what we witnessed. 

Before the ball comes across Holgate can see Sigurdsson has pointing and Keane looking at Fernandes. How does Holgate know Keane isn't gonna react? At the point the ball comes across its too late and all he'd be able to do is a token challenge to they and put him off.

 

[Hafnia]

Let's cut to the chase 

Siggy was jogging behind Fernandez from the half way line.  Both holgate and Keane were preparing for a cross... Had their line set

Why did Siggy point at Fernandez - a runner... to go and mark a player who was already covered by Doucoure 

Siggy ran back towards goal and diverted at last minute allowing fernandes a run and jump.  

For me the centre halves will be disappointed. The cross was perfect and Coleman should have cut it out, but if Siggy stayed with his man Fernandez is not getting a free jump on that. 

[Hafnia]

 

[Wiggytop]

Siggy does just fine, he points to Fernandez and runs away from him giving another player the responsibility, should have told Keane and Holgate to lie down and make it a bit easier for Fernandez.

[Hafnia]

40 minutes ago, Wiggytop said:

Siggy does just fine, he points to Fernandez and runs away from him giving another player the responsibility, should have told Keane and Holgate to lie down and make it a bit easier for Fernandez.

Why does he think football is about pointing??? There was absolutely no need for him to go towards Mata,  just watched 2 reviews of the game.   Both picked up on his error. 

I honestly do not know what he does.  He doesn't do anything.  Keane will be pissed off with himself but under no circumstances should a player get a run and jump. .. he points, that is all he does..... Fucking point at players. Drives me nuts. 

[markjazzbassist]

10 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Why does he think football is about pointing??? There was absolutely no need for him to go towards Mata,  just watched 2 reviews of the game.   Both picked up on his error. 

I honestly do not know what he does.  He doesn't do anything.  Keane will be pissed off with himself but under no circumstances should a player get a run and jump. .. he points, that is all he does..... Fucking point at players. Drives me nuts. 

maybe it's a language barrier so he points instead of confusing people with his bad english

[Hafnia]

15 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

maybe it's a language barrier so he points instead of confusing people with his bad english

His English is spot on. His football is bad. 

[pete0]

6 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

That should be highlighting Allan more than Sigurdsson. Sigurdsson is goalside of their number 17 and then goes and marks Mata who has lost Doucoure. Whereas Allan has gone walkies altogether, I'd assumed tactically but looking at that he's got sucked into play. (Ultimately Keane should still be able to handle Fernandes though).

Not a fan of Sigurdsson at all but don't think he's at much fault for that one. 

[Palfy]

Regardless of what leads up to the goal and I do agree with most of what people have been saying about Keane’s position and Gylfi’s lack of effort, for me Holgate unfortunately has been left as the last man who can stop or have the opportunity to stop the goal, yet he doesn't make any real attempt to cut off and stop Fernandez, we can moan about the 5-10 seconds of play that leads up to the goal, but Holgate has to leave his man and block off Fernandez for not doing that he is as guilty for the goal as anyone else, he didn't react to the development of play, and he was rightly or wrongly at that particular moment in time the last line of defence and he has to get a cross and deal with it. As harsh as that might sound because of what led up to that point he still has to deal with that danger. 

[pete0]

@Palfy I'm really struggling to see were you're coming from on this one. On that last pic Keane just needs to step on the tip Fernandes' shadow. He only needs to move about a metre.

[pete0]

https://youtu.be/dM1j3XAhwIE

Second goal starts from @5:10. Keane and Coleman both guilty of not stepping up to keep the defensive line. @5:15 Keane then steps back as Rashford goes forward and that gives him the time and space. Keane then doesn't track the run and gives him a free header. Piss poor defending and I'll be disappointed if he starts next game considering the first one as well. He's cost us three points. 

(Just to be really knit picky on the second goal, Allan runs directly towards the ball, had he headed straight to goalside he may have stopped the chance or at least made it more difficult.)

Sickening watching the replays that both their goals come after we could have scored. Very poor from Doucoure at the end, and a big shame Digne didn't pass to DCL rather than shoot (hit the post). That build up was top notch. Hope to see more football like that this season.

[Aidan]

On 07/11/2020 at 15:35, Hafnia said:

Gylfi never made one pass to DCL..... That's absolutely shocking.  

 

 

On 07/11/2020 at 20:07, Hafnia said:

I think the initial sources whoscored. One of the other Everton sites quoted it.

Yeah saw that it was from Whoscored, about as credible as it gets with stats.